Is the break in formula the reason for Super hate?

[Anonymous Friend]

For the most part:

Goku is unavailable. Everyone else fights the bad guys. They get smacked around. Goku comes in and takes over.

This happens a few times in the first half of the series.

It's been almost all Goku for over a hundred episodes.

[precita]

Super does have way too much Goku focus, it's the same problem GT had, but at least Super still has Goku vulnerable and gives other characters things to do.

It's absurd that Gohan was completely absent in Super all the way till the TOP. It's absurd that Piccolo has become just a background character. It's absurd that Trunks/Goten are non-existent. It's absurd that 17 and 18 are only now becoming fighters again. They also continually hype up Krillin and Tien's return to fighting only to have them done away with easily. Then they troll-hype Yamcha up for no reason. And good lord, don't get me started on Buu sleeping for two tournaments in a row.

Dragonball has a huge cast and Super handles it so poorly. What the hell is the point of everyone not named Goku or Vegeta at this point?

[Chuquita]

I'm the anomaly; baiting me with "Hey, Goku's in this episode." will always guarantee I'll watch that episode of Super. As a result, I've had very little down-time from this series for better or worse. Giving Goku a break gives me a break and would allow me to lower Super on my priorities down to where the rest of the anime I follow are (the rung of "I'll try to watch this some time before the day's over").

So yes, the positive side for me IF they ever decide to return to the Z formula and have Goku absent from Super for months at a time that'll mean I can take a break from following the show for a while.

My only dislike of this arc is that there's nothing fun to theorize about like there was last arc. I can see the consequence-free, everyone-gets-wished-back-and-nobody-is-erased-forever ending of this arc coming a mile away. I mean I could be wrong; it could have a super dark ending like the Future Trunks arc, but I doubt it.

[Bryesque]

To be fair, it hasn't entirely been all-Goku. He was absent (or away from the battle) for early chunks of "Battle of Gods" and "Resurrection F" before showing up to turn the tide, just like the early Z sagas.

But really... that formula can get stretched a little thin. It makes sense to up the stakes a bit and give the supporting cast some focus before the big finale, but he is the protagonist of the series, and you can only repeat the same plot beats so many times before it gets tiresome. Personally, I prefer finding more creative ways to keep the rest of the cast involved and the stakes high without finding some forced reason to keep Goku temporarily out of the picture.

[ABED]

I have to with Bryesque on this one. I know a lot of people interpret the series as being all about Goku (even though it's his story), but he's constantly knocked out of commission. The formula is overdone at this point. It reminds me of Justice League: Season 1 where the writers didn't realize that they got stuck in a pattern of putting Superman out of commission. They were doing it to up the drama because if Superman is put out of action, it helps to convey the enormity of the threat as Superman is one of the most powerful members of the team. However, the formula loses its effect if it's done too often. In DBZ, Toriyama constantly put Goku out of action early on. He does it twice in the Freeza arc.

[Lord Beerus]

Honestly, I hated the formula that Z used with Goku as a character. It made Goku less of an actual character and more of a plot device. It made it seem as that the supporting cast couldn't function in some area without Goku's presence, hence why he was constantly written out of the plot in the contrived ways possible. Even when Goku wasn't alive in Z, there was still the underlining theme of "Where's Goku?" or "When is Goku going to arrive?" or "I hope Goku comes in time to save us." The Saiyan arc? Wait for Goku to arrive. The Namek/Freeza arc? Wait for Goku to arrive. The Android/Cell arc? Wait for Goku to get recover and stronger. It was especially jarring on Namek where Goku got benched twice. The formula just got real old real fast. One of the great things about the Majin Boo arc is they at least addressed this issue. Hell, the whole point of Goku not taking out Majin Boo when he had the chance to was because even he realised how dependent the cast were on him.

In Super, it refreshingly played straight that Goku is treated as the main character with the show giving him a central focus, but the same time, other characters can function and don't feel the need that Goku has to be there to solve their problem(s). It was done very effectively well in the Future Trunks arc.

[Meshack]

I really don’t like formula. Dragon Ball and One Piece do this. The main character is not there and the subcharacters have to defend themselves and defeat attempt to defeat opponents until the main character arrives and he challenges the boss. I think it sorta limits what they can do but I guess it depends on what they do.

Gokuh was on Kaioh's planet when Beerus went to the Earth. I guess he later teleported back to the Earth when Beerus fought against the Dragon Team but he still wasn’t in battle. He later then confronted Beerus (again.) In Resurrection F, Gokuh was on Beerus’s planet training with Whis as Freeza and his army were attacking the Earth. He then showed up after the soliders were defeated and first fought against Freeza. Still doesn’t break the formula so far. The 6th Universe Arc is a tournament so there’s no way you can have Gokuh arrive late but he was put out of the fight early on against Frost and later challenged the boss. The Future Trunks Arc is weird when it comes to this. Gokuh was pretty much in battle most of the time but was defeated once (twice in the anime) and went back to the present. But Gokuh did challenge Zamasu in the final battle who was the boss. The Universe Survival Arc is a tournament like the 6th Universe and 7th Universe Hakaishins Selection Martial Arts Competition so he can’t arrive late again but after his battle with Jiren he couldn’t really fight at full power and it’s been hinted that he will fight Jiren again who is the final boss.

The formula is somewhat kept. I feel like Super is trying to focus on Gokuh, but at the same time, give the others a little bit of shine. You can’t really have Dragon Ball like it was if you don’t have Gokuh. They are also trying to limit Gokuh or at least show that he needs more training. He lost against Frost due to carelessness, lost to Golden Freeza because of his carelessless, he lost to Hit because he wanted to see Monaka fight, and others.

[ABED]

Formulas are fine. Everything has a formula, but it's nice to change it up every now and then. The issue is DB has been stuck with the same formula, for the most part, for the better part of 25 years.

[TheMikado]

Formulas are fine. Everything has a formula, but it's nice to change it up every now and then. The issue is DB has been stuck with the same formula, for the most part, for the better part of 25 years.

Pretty much. This is basically "New Coke". Trying to convince people they are going to love it and telling them it's better isn't going to actually make it so.
For those not familiar with the "New Coke" era I would check it out.

[ABED]

Formulas are fine. Everything has a formula, but it's nice to change it up every now and then. The issue is DB has been stuck with the same formula, for the most part, for the better part of 25 years.

Pretty much. This is basically "New Coke". Trying to convince people they are going to love it and telling them it's better isn't going to actually make it so.
For those not familiar with the "New Coke" era I would check it out.

I don't see the parallel. New Coke was a change in the recipe. It was basically Pepsi, but it was a change.

[TheMikado]

Formulas are fine. Everything has a formula, but it's nice to change it up every now and then. The issue is DB has been stuck with the same formula, for the most part, for the better part of 25 years.

Pretty much. This is basically "New Coke". Trying to convince people they are going to love it and telling them it's better isn't going to actually make it so.
For those not familiar with the "New Coke" era I would check it out.

I don't see the parallel. New Coke was a change in the recipe. It was basically Pepsi, but it was a change.

Commercial legacy
New Coke had the spotlight for only three months but casts a long shadow, in both the business world and popular culture, that can be seen today. It is most frequently mentioned as a cautionary tale among businesses against tampering too extensively with a well-established and successful brand.

That's the parallel. Specifically it was reworked to take on what they were perceiving to be modern tastes. Similarly Super could be described as attempting to appeal to be more similar to contemporary anime's, forgetting that that emulating others waters down and reduced the distinguishing features of a brand thus alienating fans of particular aspects of which were expected of the brand. It's a simple marketing and business rule. Anytime a change is made to a product you will lose some consumers. Period. There is no way around it. The question becomes is the change enough for the new consumers to make up for the exiting consumers.

[ABED]

Ah. Not on topic, but the reason Coke changed its formula is because they did taste tests where they found out that people prefer sweeter sodas. What they didn't realize is that they prefer sweeter sodas in smaller doses. In larger quantities, they prefer something a little less sweet.

In the case of Coke, the affects and causes were far more observable. I doubt anyone watching Super would stop watching because Goku wasn't taken out early in the arc.

[TheMikado]

Ah. Not on topic, but the reason Coke changed its formula is because they did taste tests where they found out that people prefer sweeter sodas. What they didn't realize is that they prefer sweeter sodas in smaller doses. In larger quantities, they prefer something a little less sweet.

In the case of Coke, the affects and causes were far more observable. I doubt anyone watching Super would stop watching because Goku wasn't taken out early in the arc.

I'll try to keep the parallel going so it doesn't go too off topic.

Coca-Cola's market share had been losing ground to diet soft drinks and non-cola beverages for many years. Consumers who were purchasing regular colas seemed to prefer the sweeter taste of rival Pepsi-Cola, as Coca-Cola learned in conducting blind taste tests. However, the American public's reaction to the change was negative, even hostile, and the new cola was a major failure.

The parallel is that it was in response to thinking it needed to compete against rivals by adapting their formula. This was proven to be an incorrect strategy as Coke fills a certain enduring niche, just like Dragonball. In chasing the "sweeter" more instantly palatable taste they lost their enduring quality in the attempts to chase profits and market share against newer and less popular and enduring rivals.

My argument in this analogy is this.

Dragonball = Coke. Enduring, iconic, classic.
Modern Anime = Pepsi. Sweeter, less enduring, and iconic.

In an attempt to chase market share from people who we enjoying something else, they reinvented their product to be more like a historically less popular alternative. The reality is, for the product to survive it only needed to fill the niche it always had rather than taking on traits of less popular and iconic rivals. Basically the idea that either Coke or Dragonball needed to adapt to compete against its "rivals" was in my opinion a misguided and incorrect decision and just like the New Coke fiasco I believe ultimately Super will fall prey to losing its iconic status and widespread and enduring appeal when compared to the original formula. The is NOT to say Super will not be popular in the short-term, however I have said before and still maintain that it will ring hollow with western audiences especially when compared against the original.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Honestly...B.O.G was a movie and so was R.O.F that is why they are Goku centric arcs.

Universe 6 tournament had other cast fighting but not everyone obviously.

FT arc focused a lot on Trunks, Mai, Bulma to a degree. Not just Goku or Vegeta.

T.O.P is involving everyone.

I don't get the big deal.

[ABED]

It's like when people were wondering if James Bond movies were long in the tooth because of the Jason Bourne and franchises (the character, not porn) movies were popular. No, and he never has been regardless of the trends and the number of times people ask that question. Bond is the original. When he tried to imitate the imitators, the results were disasterous. 007 is who he is and DB is what it is. They are institutions. That's not to say they can't do new and interesting things with both franchises, but they shouldn't try to imitate and emulate trends.

Shit, I just realized in my rush to type a response, I wrote "affect" instead of "effect".

[Kokonoe]

Super hate boils down to inferior writing across the board. You can can honestly say Super is GT 2.0 in ways, it just has few more pros in comparison.

Right now the best Super has ever been to me were the two episodes with Jiren vs Goku.

[dbs fanboy]

Honestly i think super's hate comes down to narrative choices, some character usage and nostalgia in some cases.

Super hate boils down to inferior writing across the board. You can can honestly say Super is GT 2.0 in ways, it just has few more pros in comparison.

Right now the best Super has ever been to me were the two episodes with Jiren vs Goku.

Currently i'd say that super is how Z would be viewed if it was heavily critiziced during it's run (althought it's not better)

[ABED]

Honestly i think super's hate comes down to narrative choices, some character usage and nostalgia in some cases.

Super hate boils down to inferior writing across the board. You can can honestly say Super is GT 2.0 in ways, it just has few more pros in comparison.

Right now the best Super has ever been to me were the two episodes with Jiren vs Goku.

Currently i'd say that super is how Z would be viewed if it was heavily critiziced during it's run (althought it's not better)

Care to be more specific? What kind of narrative choices are causing people to hate on Super?

[dbs fanboy]

Honestly i think super's hate comes down to narrative choices, some character usage and nostalgia in some cases.

Super hate boils down to inferior writing across the board. You can can honestly say Super is GT 2.0 in ways, it just has few more pros in comparison.

Right now the best Super has ever been to me were the two episodes with Jiren vs Goku.

Currently i'd say that super is how Z would be viewed if it was heavily critiziced during it's run (althought it's not better)

Care to be more specific? What kind of narrative choices are causing people to hate on Super?

People dislike things such as [spoiler]Trunks making something similar to a Genkidama instead of Goku doing it (to then give Trunks all that energy), they also hate the fact that Caulifla and Kale are getting transformations so fast without training that much, and the fact that they don't really have a backstory. Or how in RoF, Tagoma was inmediatly tossed aside to bring back GinyU even thought Tagoma was much more interesting. Hell, some disliked the idea of the ToP being a battle royale.[/spoiler]

[ABED]

But isn't that the same reason most people dislike shows? They don't like the stories