Is the break in formula the reason for Super hate?

[ekrolo2]

The reason is the same as it's always been: Toriyama can't write a good story after Namek to save his or anyone else' life, whether or not Goku's front and center or spends 90% of the arc between five comas doesn't matter.

[ABED]

But i don't get the sense that the Cell or the Buu arc are as disliked as Super.

[dbs fanboy]

But isn't that the same reason most people dislike shows? They don't like the stories

Yes, and no, to some extent in some cases the hate is due not liking the story, but for example, in the Ft Trunks arc's case (and the ToP to an extent) , the hate comes as thinking that the writers were wasting potential, and had fucked things up when the plot was going on the right direction before.

The reason is the same as it's always been: Toriyama can't write a good story after Namek to save his or anyone else' life, whether or not Goku's front and center or spends 90% of the arc between five comas doesn't matter.

But what about BoG?

[ABED]

the hate comes as thinking that the writers were wasting potential

By potential, you mean what? It sounds more like people's expectations weren't met. A big issue with continuations and sequels is that people have their expectations of where the story is going and almost innevitably judge the story against what they have in their head, not the story on its own terms.

[dbs fanboy]

the hate comes as thinking that the writers were wasting potential

By potential, you mean what? It sounds more like people's expectations weren't met. A big issue with continuations and sequels is that people have their expectations of where the story is going and almost innevitably judge the story against what they have in their head, not the story on its own terms.

Like Future Trunks the genkidama like attack. Many think that as it makes no sense (because it doesn't), it's existence is only hurting the story with asspulls and power related inconsistences, an issue that could have been solved by making Goku be the one channeling energy, as it would have made sense in universe and thus not "ruin" the arc by that scene.

[ekrolo2]

The reason is the same as it's always been: Toriyama can't write a good story after Namek to save his or anyone else' life, whether or not Goku's front and center or spends 90% of the arc between five comas doesn't matter.

But what about BoG?[/quote]
BoG and the anime Trunks special are exceptions and iffy one's at that. The Trunks backstory as directly told by Toriyama is a big load of nothing that the anime needed to make into something while he hijacked BoG.

[ABED]

Hijack or not, Toriyama's hand is clearly at work in BoG.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

BoG isn't even that well written in my opinion.

But i don't get the sense that the Cell or the Buu arc are as disliked as Super.

Rose tinted Z glasses. Most complaints I've seen thrown at DBS have happened in the Cell arc and Buu arc and sometimes much worse.

[ABED]

BoG isn't even that well written in my opinion.

But i don't get the sense that the Cell or the Buu arc are as disliked as Super.

Rose tinted Z glasses. Most complaints I've seen thrown at DBS have happened in the Cell arc and Buu arc and sometimes much worse.

BoG doesn't have tight plotting, but there is a magic to that movie. It's fun and feels very Toriyama-esque in all the right ways. It also happens to have the best antagonist since Freeza.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

BoG isn't even that well written in my opinion.

But i don't get the sense that the Cell or the Buu arc are as disliked as Super.

Rose tinted Z glasses. Most complaints I've seen thrown at DBS have happened in the Cell arc and Buu arc and sometimes much worse.

BoG doesn't have tight plotting, but there is a magic to that movie. It's fun and feels very Toriyama-esque in all the right ways. It also happens to have the best antagonist since Freeza.

The pacing is atrocious made worse by extended cut, a large portion of film nothing really is happening not really sure what the "magic" in the movie is. Biggest criticism is most of the action barely is given room to breathe and for the audience to digest.

Characterisation is great I won't deny that but you need more than good characterisation to have a well balanced and good film.

[ABED]

I like the pacing. It's a fun movie and I like being around those characters, including the new ones. As for the action, I felt it could've gone a little longer and been more intense, but I didn't feel like it was that rushed nor did it go on for too long.

[lancerman]

But i don't get the sense that the Cell or the Buu arc are as disliked as Super.

I think the Cell and Boo arc came out in a time where the internet and criticism on the internet was far less prominent than it is now. And it's no secret that they are two of the more criticized arcs in the series anyways because they were the closest to that timeframe.

If DragonBall came out today from beginning to end a lot of the tropes that things like Team Four Star jokes about would have been viewed as legitimate problems in the later part of the series and heavily criticized

"oh Goku's sidelined again, oh everyone's a Super Saiyan, oh the bad guy transformed again, oh everyone's fusing, oh there's a new Super Saiyan form, oh the planet was destroyed who cares because the Dragon Balls remove the stakes, oh Vegeta is still complaining about Goku, oh Gohan is being passive again for no reason".

Super's criticisms funnily enough aren't even that. It's a mix of everyone's pet characters taking a back seat to Goku and Vegeta (like they started to at the end of Z anyways because that's what happens when you have two characters who clearly are more popular than everyone else) and some inconsistent power levels. And quite frankly someone else touched on it, but a lot of it is not meeting preconceived expectations of where some people thought the series should go.

[TheGodfather93]

I think one of the main reasons Super gets so much hate is its inconsistent, and often quite poor writing. The Dragon Ball manga wasn't a bastion of superb storytelling in the slightest, but at least the story was being written by one man. Power scaling in DB was also much more consistent, and that's something A LOT of people care about. Super's constant pandering to flashy fanservice over substance is another big issue people have with the series. It has never been more clear than in the ToP that the Super anime is just one giant toy commercial.

[coola]

I dislike Super for making Goku and others much worse characters than they were in B/DBZ, complete disregard for power levels and early established rules. The only highlights are Freeza and Jiren

[ABED]

But i don't get the sense that the Cell or the Buu arc are as disliked as Super.

I think the Cell and Boo arc came out in a time where the internet and criticism on the internet was far less prominent than it is now. And it's no secret that they are two of the more criticized arcs in the series anyways because they were the closest to that timeframe.

If DragonBall came out today from beginning to end a lot of the tropes that things like Team Four Star jokes about would have been viewed as legitimate problems in the later part of the series and heavily criticized

"oh Goku's sidelined again, oh everyone's a Super Saiyan, oh the bad guy transformed again, oh everyone's fusing, oh there's a new Super Saiyan form, oh the planet was destroyed who cares because the Dragon Balls remove the stakes, oh Vegeta is still complaining about Goku, oh Gohan is being passive again for no reason".

Super's criticisms funnily enough aren't even that. It's a mix of everyone's pet characters taking a back seat to Goku and Vegeta (like they started to at the end of Z anyways because that's what happens when you have two characters who clearly are more popular than everyone else) and some inconsistent power levels. And quite frankly someone else touched on it, but a lot of it is not meeting preconceived expectations of where some people thought the series should go.

The internet has little to do with it. Those two last arcs benefit from being part of the original run and having a bit of that Toriyama magic that seems to be lacking lately.

Goku is the main character. People have always taken a back seat to him. This is not remotely a recent phenomenon.

[Kuwabara]

the hate comes as thinking that the writers were wasting potential

By potential, you mean what? It sounds more like people's expectations weren't met. A big issue with continuations and sequels is that people have their expectations of where the story is going and almost innevitably judge the story against what they have in their head, not the story on its own terms.

Like Future Trunks the genkidama like attack. Many think that as it makes no sense (because it doesn't), it's existence is only hurting the story with asspulls and power related inconsistences, an issue that could have been solved by making Goku be the one channeling energy, as it would have made sense in universe and thus not "ruin" the arc by that scene.

Why does it need to be rationalized so much? Trunks overcoming Black after all the heartache and turmoil he had caused, along with Sumitomo's sweeping music, was a powerful scene. The hope of the people along with Trunks' resolve combined to crush evil, at least in its physical form... I see it as a reflection of the human spirit, in all of its complexities. People often drive themselves nuts trying to reason everything out, but life is often mysterious. So, in a series full of cosmic martial arts and energy channeling, I don't think it's a stretch to think that maybe its characters still don't know everything there is to know about the power they wield, especially someone relatively young like Trunks.

As for Goku using the Genki Dama to defeat an enemy... Wow, never seen that before. Dragon Ball fans will complain about Super pandering to nostalgia but then expect the same shit over and over, I have a really hard time figuring out just what exactly they want from this show... Why can't Trunks land the finishing blow? Isn't it enough that Vegetto, "loosened the cap," so to speak?

Not only that, but Trunks technically didn't even win, which brings up another novel aspect of this arc; for once, Goku and friends simply could not overcome a villain and save the universe. Zamasu becomes evil itself, and Trunks' original timeline is completely wiped out by Zeno. This sets a precedent for the rest of the series that from here on out, no happy endings are guaranteed.

So you say it doesn't make sense, but the arc's climax doesn't "ruin" anything and is actually quite unique and satisfying within the grand scheme of Dragon Ball's story.

Those two last arcs benefit from being part of the original run and having a bit of that Toriyama magic that seems to be lacking lately.

I'd like to know what you mean. I think the Toriyama magic is all over Super. The new designs and all of the character interaction is way more reminiscent of Dragon Ball than anything Toei would have came up with themselves for something like GT, for example. There's a whole Dr. Slump episode for fuck's sake!

[ABED]

I'd like to know what you mean. I think the Toriyama magic is all over Super. The new designs and all of the character interaction is way more reminiscent of Dragon Ball than anything Toei would have came up with themselves for something like GT, for example.

Sure, GT lacked that Toriyama spark, which is why I wasn't a big fan of it, but I'm not a fan of the new designs. Okay, I like Beerus, but from everything I'm hearing, DB Super is steeped in nostalgia whereas Toriyama liked to move the story forward. I used the term magic because it's that ineffable quality. You know it when you see it and feel its absence. DB has lacked that since Z ended.

[lancerman]

I'd like to know what you mean. I think the Toriyama magic is all over Super. The new designs and all of the character interaction is way more reminiscent of Dragon Ball than anything Toei would have came up with themselves for something like GT, for example.

Sure, GT lacked that Toriyama spark, which is why I wasn't a big fan of it, but I'm not a fan of the new designs. Okay, I like Beerus, but from everything I'm hearing, DB Super is steeped in nostalgia whereas Toriyama liked to move the story forward. I used the term magic because it's that ineffable quality. You know it when you see it and feel its absence. DB has lacked that since Z ended.

Exactly. You can tell Toriyama is involved in Super. GT felt like they got generic manga writers. It did not feel like an extension of the same story.

[ABED]

GT felt like an extention, just by different writers, like when another showrunner takes over a long running TV show. It wasn't the same. From everything I'm reading, it seems like Super's answer to that is to up the nostalgia factor and add even more hierarchy to the series. Regardless, the magic is still gone.

[PsionicWarrior]

Regardless, the magic is still gone.

But you just said you found magic in BoG?
Did you watch Super? Not all, but some episodes DO work IMO