How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

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Michsi
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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by Michsi » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:42 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Michsi wrote:I've said this before, and the way I interpret it - and it is nothing more than a personal interpretation - is that 'Daimaou'/'Demon King' is more or less a title or position that Piccolo Jr. inherits along side his fathers memories and essence.
Again: after Raditz is killed, Kami tells Popo that when Piccolo (as Daimao) used to kill people, their souls would be trapped in limbo. Now when he kills, as with Raditz, their souls go to the afterlife. He is directly comparing and contrasting what happens when Piccolo used to kill people before with what happens when he kills them now. "He is no longer the Daimao of old." If he were truly 100% a totally different character from the outset, this fact would go without saying and not need to warrant a comparison. And that's just one example. Again, other characters (notably Kuririn, on multiple occasions) equate the actions of Daimao with the Ma Junior incarnation of Piccolo. Piccolo himself calls himself Piccolo Daimao not as a title, but in direct reference to his crimes and actions in the past.

Put simply: the physical form is that of Daimao's son, but the spirit inside it is a mixture of Daimao himself and whatever mortal components of his son remains.

Thus, he's both Daimao as well as the son of Daimao. Its a little of column A and a little of column B.
Again, I'm not dismissing the reincarnation bit - what I'm referring to is them being the same character, which I do not believe.
I do remember that scene in the Saiyan arc, and it's a very interesting and telling scene, but it does little to explain the father/son/reincarnation bit. I write 'title/position', but I obviously know it's not a completely accurate analogy. They are both Piccolo, but are not the same Piccolo - if that makes any sense.
Kunzait_83 wrote: That's not AT ALL how I remember the dub handling it. The dub more times than not TOTALLY side-steps the issue: most scenes where characters talk about Daimao and Ma Junior's relationship in the Japanese version, the dub will just have the characters talking about some other nonsense that's TOTALLY unrelated. Whenever the dub DID talk about them, they seemed to just dismiss Ma Junior as being the son of Daimao and that's that.

If there's a bit in the dub where they do acknowledge that Ma Junior and Daimao are the same, I certainly don't remember it at all. If someone here does remember it specifically, by all means feel free to chime in.
I myself have only seen the 23TB arc from Funi once or twice many years ago, and I remember them handling it like they were the same character, which annoyed me. I guess that was the reason they had Chris Sabat voice both King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr.

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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:01 am

Maybe I just don't recall them explicitly stated that Ma Junior was Piccolo reborn in a body that's explicitly mortal with a soul, but I can't recall that ever being said. If I'm right, my guess is that it's taken as a given based on Japanese kids' understanding of Eastern religion and folklore.

Ma Junior being both son and the demon king is like the trinity in Christianity. It's been around for thousands of years and the idea that Jesus is both God and the son of God still confuses some people.
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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by KBABZ » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:31 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:Long long like a Shenlong
Yes I understand all that. I do have a lot of respect for the original, authentic Japanese version of the show. Furthermore, I have no interest in the DBZ dub and know practically nothing about it aside from its most famous meme; my main point of familiarity is with the Z Kai dub. In that one both of the scenes you're talking about were dubbed fairly accurarately. Here's the one in episode 5:
Z Kai 05 wrote:Kami: I can still feel the evil in his heart, and yet, I can feel a change coming over him, Mr. Popo. He is not acting like the villain I would expect.
Mr. Popo: Ah, it is odd. The old King Piccolo never would have been willing to train Goku's son!
Kami: Yes, I found it equally surprising when he agreed to forge an alliance with Goku in order to fight Raditz. I realize he had his own selfish motives for doing so, but still. It does not change the fact that he chose to defend the Earth! And though it may seem that Piccolo's true evil nature revealed itself when he eliminated Goku along with Raditz... we must not forget, that Goku chose to make that sacrifice! Not only that, but he can be easily revived with the Dragon Balls. Piccolo knows that Goku is certain to return, and yet has still chosen to train his son, a boy that may one day grow to be a powerful enemy in his own right.
Comparing it to the Japanese subtitles, the only thing that's changed is the whole Raditz in limbo thing, being replaced with the Goku's easy revival meaning Piccolo should not need to train Gohan and yet he does anyway. In the Androids scene in ep 66, Krillin refers to what the subtitles say is "Daimao" as "the evil half" in direct correlation to Jr, and Tien calls Jr. "the reincarnation of Piccolo Daimao" (as opposed to, say, Daimao's second life or something like that) so for me that checks out as well.

My interpretation, personally, based on the DB and Z Kai dubs and reading the ViZ manga of the DB half (to use anime terminology for convenience), is that Jr. is mostly individual from his father, who has the same goals as him because that's what he was created for. Each of Daimao's offspring is created for a specific purpose (his aide, killing martial artists, killing the dude who killed Tambourine, etc), and so too is Jr; Daimao specifically tells his son to avenge his death and continue his villainous ways, very similar to Drum and Tambourine and Cymbal also being told what their goal is shortly after they are born. And I personally don't think that when Daimao died that his soul or spirit somehow made its way to the egg he just spat out. For me, Jr.'s arc is growing out of the shadow of his father and what he was born to do and becoming a better person.

Look, I know the two stories differ in significant ways, even Z Kai, and your stance probably comes from decades of putting up with dub fans, but I resent the implication that I am unwilling to learn about and appreciate the original story. I wouldn't have read the main site back to front, archive binged on the podcast, or stuck around here for more than a year if I was.

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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:43 am

Ma Junior is different, but the same. A good indication that he is a reincarnation of Daimao is that he flat out says he is. He has the connection with Kami and all his memories. He's also fundamentally different from the other demons that the first Piccolo spat out in that he looks like a Namekian and not a demon.
And I personally don't think that when Daimao died that his soul or spirit somehow made its way to the egg he just spat out.
I think he's saying that Daimao didn't have a soul, but upon being reborn, his new body did.
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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by KBABZ » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:46 am

ABED wrote:Ma Junior is different, but the same. A good indication that he is a reincarnation of Daimao is that he flat out says he is. He has the connection with Kami and all his memories. He's also fundamentally different from the other demons that the first Piccolo spat out in that he looks like a Namekian and not a demon.
Genuine question: has there ever been any moments or instances where Piccolo Jr. recalls specific events from his past life? The one I can think of is him directly stating that he broke all of Goku's limbs at the 23rd Tournament rather than leaving one alone.
ABED wrote:
And I personally don't think that when Daimao died that his soul or spirit somehow made its way to the egg he just spat out.
I think he's saying that Daimao didn't have a soul, but upon being reborn, his new body did.
That sounds a bit odd that his spawn would have souls like that, but then again it's also odd that Cymbal apparently has meat that's edible and good to cook, soooo yeah.

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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:52 am

KBABZ wrote:And I personally don't think that when Daimao died that his soul or spirit somehow made its way to the egg he just spat out. For me, Jr.'s arc is growing out of the shadow of his father and what he was born to do and becoming a better person.
If that were the case, then once more, there's be no spiritual bond between Kami and Ma Junior. Kami would've died with Daimao when Goku tore a gaping hole through his torso. Furthermore, the resulting fusion between Kami and Jr. wouldn't result in the "Namekian who long ago forgot his name" returning whole again. You need Daimao and Kami in order to have that person back: not Kami and some random other Namekian.

In order for Kami and Piccolo Jr. to be intertwined as such, there HAS to be some of Daimao left inside Jr. Its stated enough times by various characters, and the narrative plays itself out as such for there to be little doubt: Piccolo - in both Daimao and Ma Junior incarnations - and Kami are two halves of the original Nameless Son of Katatsu whole.

Again, for the dozenth time, I'm NOT saying that EITHER Piccolo is Daimao's son OR he's Daimao himself. I'm saying that he is indeed BOTH at the same time.
KBABZ wrote:Look, I know the two stories differ in significant ways, even Z Kai, and your stance probably comes from decades of putting up with dub fans, but I resent the implication that I am unwilling to learn about and appreciate the original story. I wouldn't have read the main site back to front, archive binged on the podcast, or stuck around here for more than a year if I was.
There's no need to "resent" anything, as that was never even vaguely close to being implied by me. You completely pulled that from nothing.

This just happens to be a particular topic that has had a LOT of debate around it primarily due to dub-related nonsense, which is why I drew attention to that. It had nothing at all (or very little) to do with you or your history with the dub, neither of which I was particularly focused on when I posted. Really, I was more just thinking about the (heated) debates we used to have on here back in the day over scenes and story points like this one. I wasn't at all focused on you personally in any way, beyond the basic fact that you brought the topic up in the first place.

No one insulted anyone and no one "implied" anything about anyone's character, certainly not over something as trivial as a children's comic/cartoon. So chill. If I wanted to "imply" something about you, I wouldn't have implied it at all: I'm not the kind of person who pussyfoots like that. I'd just say whatever it is I'm thinking straight out directly, probably in very blunt fashion. But I don't know you from Adam, so why would I have anything to say (or imply) about you personally?
ABED wrote:Ma Junior is different, but the same. A good indication that he is a reincarnation of Daimao is that he flat out says he is. He has the connection with Kami and all his memories. He's also fundamentally different from the other demons that the first Piccolo spat out in that he looks like a Namekian and not a demon.
Pretty much all of this. Again, the characters, including Piccolo himself, DIRECTLY use the phrases "reincarnation of Piccolo Daimao", "Piccolo Daimao reborn", etc. It doesn't get much more clearer than that.
ABED wrote:I think he's saying that Daimao didn't have a soul, but upon being reborn, his new body did.
Yes. Again, Kami spells this out pretty clearly: when Daimao kills people, their souls stay trapped on Earth in limbo. This is taken directly from Buddhist and Shinto beliefs on demons and other evil entities, and acts as a common explanation within those religions for why ghosts and hauntings occur (and also ties in with rituals that Fangxianshi/Taoist Exorcists used to perform, another topic I'd talked a bit about in another thread).

When Ma Junior kills, however, the souls now go freely to the afterlife. Thus, Ma Junior is not a demon, and the comparison is made specifically because Kami is comparing Piccolo as he was before to Piccolo as he is now. If they were two completely separate individuals, then the phenomenon wouldn't even warrant commenting upon. But Kami is drawing a direct parallel between them: this entity called Piccolo used to be one way before, and now he's changed into this new thing here.
Last edited by Kunzait_83 on Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by KBABZ » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:57 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:
KBABZ wrote:Look, I know the two stories differ in significant ways, even Z Kai, and your stance probably comes from decades of putting up with dub fans, but I resent the implication that I am unwilling to learn about and appreciate the original story. I wouldn't have read the main site back to front, archive binged on the podcast, or stuck around here for more than a year if I was.
There's no need to "resent" anything, as that was never even vaguely close to being implied by me. You completely pulled that from nothing.

This just happens to be a particular topic that has had a LOT of debate around it primarily due to dub-related nonsense, which is why I drew attention to that. It had nothing at all (or very little) to do with you or your history with the dub, neither of which I was particularly focused on when I posted. Really, I was more just thinking about the (heated) debates we used to have on here back in the day over scenes and story points like this one. I wasn't at all focused on you personally in any way, beyond the basic fact that you brought the topic up in the first place.

No one insulted anyone and no one "implied" anything about anyone's character, certainly not over something as trivial as a children's comic/cartoon. So chill.
Okay, sorry for making those accusations towards you, I was wrong. I didn't know until now that it was a loaded subject around here.

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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:15 am

Quick question, is Daimao two syllables or three?
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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by Michsi » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:22 am

ABED wrote:Quick question, is Daimao two syllables or three?

I think it's three, considering that the last 'o' is actually supposed to be 'ō' ,as in 'ou', as in 'king'. Dai = great, ma = evil or demon , ō = king.
But someone with more knowledge might correct me on this.

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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by funrush » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:59 pm

He's a hardboiled badass with a soft side. He's green. He's Gohan's warrior dad. He can rip his own arm off and grow it back. He's got a cool costume. He's got a cool dub voice. He's probably the smartest character, aside from Krillin. He can absorb less cool people to become even cooler.

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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by KBABZ » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:15 pm

funrush wrote:He's a hardboiled badass with a soft side. He's green. He's Gohan's warrior dad. He can rip his own arm off and grow it back. He's got a cool costume. He's got a cool dub voice. He's probably the smartest character, aside from Krillin. He can absorb less cool people to become even cooler.
He can also absorb more boring characters who slow the story down and don't contribute anything! (aka Kami)

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