How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by namekiansaiyan » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:48 am

Michsi wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote: Piccolo had the attachment to Goku already be doesn't meed Gohan to be apart of the group or be in tbe action and Vegeta does not need Bulma as he would also want to be where the action is.Piccolo's connection with Gohan is exaggerated because of Toei. Toriyama treats it completely differently. What did Gohan and Piccolo ever do together after the Saiyan arc?
Well, Toriyama seems to disagree, and I think he even mentioned in an interview that it's a nice thing to see happen (specifically related to the Piccolo Gohan relationship)
As for what did they do together- Gohan specifically asks to come visit him after the Cell Saga, and it obviously made Piccolo happy. Piccolo destroys cameras all over the tournament ground specifically to help Gohan keep his identity a secret even though he himself found the whole Saiyaman gig ridiculous. Goten knows Piccolo well, which implies Piccolo meets them fairly regularly. Basically they are close, even in the manga.
The manga doesn't have enough room to spare for too many character related moments outside of fighting, so you don't see them as often as in the anime which has more time to fill. You wouldn't be able to really tell that Goku and Krillin are supposed to be best friends if you only read the manga after the Piccolo arc. Yes, Toei exaggerates, but it's because their relationship is really liked.
namekiansaiyan wrote: If it was so liked then people then why are people moaning about them always being together and not fighting seperately in the tournament. This connection damages both characters now and was only needed in the Saiyan arc.
It's not the connection, it's the execution. I love the relationship between Gohan and Piccolo, and I still hated what they did in the ROF arc and episode 106. Poor story ideas revolving around them has nothing to do with the relationship itself. They are using the popularity of their bond as an excuse to build false drama.
namekiansaiyan wrote:We know they get on with each other just like how all the characters get and Toei need to stop exageratting and I just hope that someone new comes in to Toei and changes the way Piccolo and Gohan act.
I don't want to change how Piccolo and Gohan act around each other, I just want Piccolo to be given something else to do. Well, he did get a fight in the U6 tournament arc and look how that turned out - this is proof that the less than stellar treatment of his character has nothing to do with Gohan.
The Universe 6 tournament is a perfect example of the difference betwern Toei and Toriyama. Piccolo is treated as a seperate character to Gohan whereas Toei treats Piccolo and Gohan as a pair. Even when recruiting Piccolo they had to have Gohan there.

If Toei made the Universe 6 arc they probably would have had Piccolo train Gohan and eventually have Piccolo replaced by Gohan him before the tournament starts.

This connection existing is the reason for all the shit ideas that come Toei because they exaggerate it. Yes we know they care about each other but we don't need to be told all the time. Gohan cares for Goku and Krillin but they don't keep telling us.

I might be in a minority regarding the connection but I feel if they changed the way Toei have them interact then fans would be much more happier with both of them.

Overall I find this connection is the worst part about Piccolo and if you want to see either Piccolo or Gohan at their best in the series then they have to be treated as individuals instead of a pair.

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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:54 am

I haven't seen Super, but in Z, Toei didn't exaggerate or force it.
This connection existing is the reason for all the shit ideas that come Toei because they exaggerate it. Yes we know they care about each other but we don't need to be told all the time. Gohan cares for Goku and Krillin but they don't keep telling us.
They don't say it, they show it.
Overall I find this connection is the worst part about Piccolo and if you want to see either Piccolo or Gohan at their best in the series then they have to be treated as individuals instead of a pair.
How? ONe of the big reasons Piccolo is so interesting is because of his fondness for Gohan. He still retains his individuality while having a deep friendship with Gohan. Which series are you referring to? Z, Super, both?
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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by namekiansaiyan » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:10 pm

ABED wrote:I haven't seen Super, but in Z, Toei didn't exaggerate or force it.
This connection existing is the reason for all the shit ideas that come Toei because they exaggerate it. Yes we know they care about each other but we don't need to be told all the time. Gohan cares for Goku and Krillin but they don't keep telling us.
They don't say it, they show it.
Overall I find this connection is the worst part about Piccolo and if you want to see either Piccolo or Gohan at their best in the series then they have to be treated as individuals instead of a pair.
How? ONe of the big reasons Piccolo is so interesting is because of his fondness for Gohan. He still retains his individuality while having a deep friendship with Gohan. Which series are you referring to? Z, Super, both?
If you watch Super then you will see what I mean.

In Z I am ok with the connection it as it doesn't get in the way of him being more of a solo character. This is because of Toriyama though. In Super Toei handle the connection really bad and it is just like what they said in that GT interview.

Piccolo is my favourite character in the series because of everything else about him that is not related to Gohan and these are listed in my first post of this thread.

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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by Michsi » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:13 pm

namekiansaiyan wrote: If Toei made the Universe 6 arc they probably would have had Piccolo train Gohan and eventually have Piccolo replaced by Gohan him before the tournament starts.
We have no way of knowing that. Toei left Gohan in the dust too in GT, there's no reason to think they would've favored him over Piccolo for this particular arc. Either way, Gohan being with Piccolo at the starts means nothing, what I was referring to was the actual tournament. No Gohan to throw himself in front of to protect, no Gohan to use as an excuse for him not going to train with Vegeta and Goku, no Gohan to blame for him losing his one and only fight. As I said, the relationship in and of itself is not the reason he is no longer one of the top tier fighters.
namekiansaiyan wrote:Overall I find this connection is the worst part about Piccolo and if you want to see either Piccolo or Gohan at their best in the series then they have to be treated as individuals instead of a pair.
What if his connection with Gohan is used as a reason for him getting more powerful? Like failing to protect Gohan and it triggers something in him.

Anyway, this wasn't the point of the thread, don't really want to hijack it with a side topic ( but it's an interesting topic)

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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:22 pm

His connection to Gohan is part of what makes Piccolo who he is. He's no less an individual with his own agency because of that relationship. With Gohan, Piccolo doesn't become a good guy. Without Piccolo, Gohan doesn't become a warrior. That relationship is vital for both characters' popularity.
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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by Marco Polo » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:26 pm

He's the closest thing DB has to an African American (for example, Piccolo has ancestors from Namek but he initially didn't know anything about Namek and wasn't even born there, just like an African American has ancestors from Africa but wasn't born there and knows more about the US than any African country).

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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:30 pm

Marco Polo wrote:He's the closest thing DB has to an African American (for example, Piccolo has ancestors from Namek but he initially didn't know anything about Namek and wasn't even born there, just like an African American has ancestors from Africa but wasn't born there and knows more about the US than any African country).
The same can be said of nearly every American born citizen. We all have ancestors from various parts of the world and many don't have much connection to those places. I'm of Irish and Welsh ancestry and I have no emotional attachment to those countries. I don't see how this leads to a character's popularity.
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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:46 pm

Marco Polo wrote:He's the closest thing DB has to an African American (for example, Piccolo has ancestors from Namek but he initially didn't know anything about Namek and wasn't even born there, just like an African American has ancestors from Africa but wasn't born there and knows more about the US than any African country).
I'm extremely sorry for making this assumption, but I've been noticing lately that the French are extremely passionate and knowledgeable about the African American struggle for equality and so on. Not to an obnoxious or obsessive degree. Juuuuust right. Why is that so? I'm extremely ignorant so please pardon me if I said something wrong.
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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:12 pm

I think it's because he just stands out so well from the main cast in terms of design, personality and even techniques. Not to mention, for those who got into Dragon Ball though the Saiyan arc and beyond, he makes one hell of an impression killing the first major villain of the show with an incredibly flashy attack. And having Scott McNeil and Christopher Sabat (but more-so Scott McNeil) voice him in the English dub did wonders for the impression it made on fans.

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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by TobyS » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:35 pm

ABED wrote:
Marco Polo wrote:He's the closest thing DB has to an African American (for example, Piccolo has ancestors from Namek but he initially didn't know anything about Namek and wasn't even born there, just like an African American has ancestors from Africa but wasn't born there and knows more about the US than any African country).
The same can be said of nearly every American born citizen. We all have ancestors from various parts of the world and many don't have much connection to those places. I'm of Irish and Welsh ancestry and I have no emotional attachment to those countries. I don't see how this leads to a character's popularity.
Because those things don't “Other" you. People crying out for representation in media do latch onto blank slates like aliens when there's no one else.
There's tonnes of anecdotal evidence that black people consider Piccolo black.

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1317651

There's a good analogy with Piccolo going to a foreign land with no racial memory and being corrupted by the locals like King Piccolo. Being self destructive in his youth like in the saiyan arc “if you want to feel resentment curse your own fate as I do” (maybe a visism) returning home to Namek (Africa) and being like “I'm home I'm alive!”. before fully knowing and reconciling his identity (after fusing with kami) and allowing himself to be calm mature and not defined by other people (rocking Pan in her crib) but knowing that doesn't make him any less badass, willing to sacrifice coolness and organise (stay in formation at the ToP) for the betterment of his community.

You can imagine Piccolo and Kamiccolo being the guy at the beginning and ending of the “Hell yeah” by dead prez.
https://youtu.be/kGjSq4HqP9Y

Piccolo is black and Vegeta is middle class white trump voters saiyan (white) pride! . Freeza is moneyed elite of ambiguous ethnicity and race who *really* run things.

It's probably unintentional like the MLK/X = Xavier/Magneto in the X-men thing bit there's definitely a nice sub text there even if unintentional.

Man someone needs to write an essay in Dragonball through an intersectional socialist lens...
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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:24 pm

Michsi wrote:Which is a shame, because the 23rd TB arc is one the best of the entire franchise, specifically their fight. Though granted, it doesn't paint in the best of lights, what with him looking like a maniacal killer as opposed to DBZ where he was always depicted as a more level-headed, cool person. It might've been a little off-putting for some.
Personally, it made the heel-face turn all the more meaningful knowing his history and what he was like before Radditz' arrival, but to each his own.
Personally I always found the 23rd WMAT to be the weaker of the Dragon Ball arcs. By that point we had already done this type of arc twice beforehand, and while the 21st had the more gimmick fighter angle and the 22nd had the Tien rivarly, I find there to be not that much interesting about the 23rd and by that point the excitement of another Tournament had worn off. I lose a lot of my interest after the Chi-Chi and Cyborg Tao fights are over and done with, as most of the matchups after that are completely predictable. Piccolo Jr. to me also comes off as a generic "I'MMA KILL YOU" villain who decides to go the Tournament route, which should really be below him as I feel like him just assassinating Goku at any time would be more in keeping with the revenge focus he had at the time.

That said, the fight does serve a few important purposes for the story overall. Firstly, it gives us an introduction to Piccolo Jr. proper; I always saw Jr. as a completely different character from Daimao, who was pure evil, and the reincarnation I guess allowed his son to actually be capable of being good later on (he isn't as outright maniacal as his dad). Secondly, the fact that Piccolo Jr. is painted in a bad light is precisely why his entire arc works; based on the Z content, you really have no inclination that Piccolo is evil outside of the characters just saying he is; seeing him blow up an entire city in the 23rd finals and practically torturing Goku goes a long way to actually showing the audience that part of his character. Because of that, it makes it much more meaningful that he's able to make a change later on, and brings more meaning to Goku sparing him at the end since it gives him a second chance, much like when Goku spares Vegeta later on, giving him a chance to be a better person. In my opinion, Krillin partially lampshades this duality in Kai when he says that "People like [Vegeta] don't change!" when Goku tries to justify sparing him. It's also probably why Goku felt that sparing Frieza on Namek might be a good option.

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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:31 pm

Because those things don't “Other" you. People crying out for representation in media do latch onto blank slates like aliens when there's no one else.
There's tonnes of anecdotal evidence that black people consider Piccolo black.
I don't care that there are a lot of people who think that. What they think isn't relevant. Toriyama's views are the only one's that are relevant in this particular issue. There are plenty of people that consider Piccolo black. There is also evidence that DB is not that kind of story.
It's probably unintentional like the MLK/X = Xavier/Magneto in the X-men thing bit there's definitely a nice sub text there even if unintentional.
It wasn't unintentional. The X-Men is explicitly meant to be an allegory. DB is not. It's a story about martial arts written by an author with a predilection for dirty jokes.
Piccolo is black and Vegeta is middle class white trump voters saiyan (white) pride! . Freeza is moneyed elite of ambiguous ethnicity and race who *really* run things.
Stop injecting modern politics into this story. It's a timeless story. Piccolo isn't an analogy for the black experience. He's the reincarnation of the king of demons who turned good. I don't think too many people can relate to that. And even DB was an analogy, it wouldn't be about American racial politics.

Goku didn't spare Vegeta or Piccolo because he thought they might be good. He spared them because he wanted to fight them later. He's explicit about this.
Last edited by ABED on Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:44 pm

Just to comment on them being paired up, yes, it makes sense and it's an established feature but when two characters are joined to the hip, one of them's gonna lose his own identity and Piccolo's kind of become that guy.

While Gohan can get paired up with interesting partners like Freeza in the new arc, Piccolo basically can't do anything unless Gohan's right there with him. He can't get paired up with Roshi, even though that would make a LOT of sense, nor can he, Vegeta and Tien have an episode where they fight together as the trio of redeemed bad guys. He's just kind of become an accessory to Gohan who's only there for some "bloodier" segments and sacrifice himself for Gohan's sake.

It's really weird as everyone else in the tournament's gotten something but Piccolo's just kind of that guy who can't leave Gohan alone xD
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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:48 pm

Regarding Gohan and Piccolo in Super, this all sounds a lot like fanfiction. I haven't read a lot of it for this reason, and it's because they will take certain traits and because they aren't good writers or at the very least really understand the voice of the original writer, they latch onto certain aspects and lean too heavily into them.
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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by Whatever » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:06 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Just to comment on them being paired up, yes, it makes sense and it's an established feature but when two characters are joined to the hip, one of them's gonna lose his own identity and Piccolo's kind of become that guy.

While Gohan can get paired up with interesting partners like Freeza in the new arc, Piccolo basically can't do anything unless Gohan's right there with him. He can't get paired up with Roshi, even though that would make a LOT of sense, nor can he, Vegeta and Tien have an episode where they fight together as the trio of redeemed bad guys. He's just kind of become an accessory to Gohan who's only there for some "bloodier" segments and sacrifice himself for Gohan's sake.

It's really weird as everyone else in the tournament's gotten something but Piccolo's just kind of that guy who can't leave Gohan alone xD
In universe its Gohan who cannot leave Piccolo alone,heck after running away from Wall-E the first thing he does think is to go back to Piccolo.
He could not run away from Gohan even if he wanted to,he found him right away.
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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by Michsi » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:14 am

KBABZ wrote:
Michsi wrote:Which is a shame, because the 23rd TB arc is one the best of the entire franchise, specifically their fight. Though granted, it doesn't paint in the best of lights, what with him looking like a maniacal killer as opposed to DBZ where he was always depicted as a more level-headed, cool person. It might've been a little off-putting for some.
Personally, it made the heel-face turn all the more meaningful knowing his history and what he was like before Radditz' arrival, but to each his own.
Personally I always found the 23rd WMAT to be the weaker of the Dragon Ball arcs. By that point we had already done this type of arc twice beforehand, and while the 21st had the more gimmick fighter angle and the 22nd had the Tien rivarly, I find there to be not that much interesting about the 23rd and by that point the excitement of another Tournament had worn off. I lose a lot of my interest after the Chi-Chi and Cyborg Tao fights are over and done with, as most of the matchups after that are completely predictable. Piccolo Jr. to me also comes off as a generic "I'MMA KILL YOU" villain who decides to go the Tournament route, which should really be below him as I feel like him just assassinating Goku at any time would be more in keeping with the revenge focus he had at the time.
.
For me, the whole arc is a joy from start to finish. Goku's first appearance as an adult, Tien's fight with Tao Pai Pai, Goku's fight with Tien (though levels below their fight in the 22nd TB), Piccolo's fight with Kami and the whole namekian foreshadowing, and Piccolo's face as he is about to knock Krillin into the ground, both in the manga and anime.
Yes, we had tournament arcs before, but this was the first time the fate of the world was at stake. And Piccolo himself was interesting to watch; his father had been such a larger than life character, but here was his offspring smugly playing along with the rules of the tournament. It showed he had a mischievous, playful side that his father hadn't had. I always wondered if even by the end he still cared about the rules as much as Goku did or if he had completely forgotten about it and didn't step out of bounds simply by accident, even as a giant.
And then there is the fight itself! Granted, the whole arc wouldn't even have registered had it not been for this fantastic fight. Piccolo himself might not have been the most groundbreaking villain, but his move set more than made up for his archetypal carriage, and again, his freaking design. Those fangs as he was laughing maniacally :3
And Goku was just brilliant in their fight. Like, literally. I don't think there is a fight where he displays such creativity and doesn't rely on a new flashy technique. Using his feet to propel himself upwards, using Piccolo's hubris against him and tricking him into making himself larger, and of course, my absolute favorite thing: Goku leading Piccolo's tracking projectile right back to him. That grin as he gets right in Piccolo's face and then moves out of the way, Piccolo confusion and then his realization. 10/10 moment. 10/10 fight.

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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by Marco Polo » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:06 am

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Marco Polo wrote:He's the closest thing DB has to an African American (for example, Piccolo has ancestors from Namek but he initially didn't know anything about Namek and wasn't even born there, just like an African American has ancestors from Africa but wasn't born there and knows more about the US than any African country).
I'm extremely sorry for making this assumption, but I've been noticing lately that the French are extremely passionate and knowledgeable about the African American struggle for equality and so on. Not to an obnoxious or obsessive degree. Juuuuust right. Why is that so? I'm extremely ignorant so please pardon me if I said something wrong.
Mmh, I didn't notice that myself, but maybe it's because France has a large number of minorities who descend from Africa too (mostly North Africa but also Subsaharian Africa). I dunno.
ABED wrote:
Because those things don't “Other" you. People crying out for representation in media do latch onto blank slates like aliens when there's no one else.
There's tonnes of anecdotal evidence that black people consider Piccolo black.
I don't care that there are a lot of people who think that. What they think isn't relevant. Toriyama's views are the only one's that are relevant in this particular issue. There are plenty of people that consider Piccolo black. There is also evidence that DB is not that kind of story.
The topic is "How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?"

How are Toriyama's views relevant to that? Toriyama himself decided that Piccolo would become a popular character in North America? :crazy:

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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:09 am

How are Toriyama's views relevant to that? Toriyama himself decided that Piccolo would become a popular character in North America
You don't think the writer's views of whether Piccolo is a stand in for blacks is relevant?

Piccolo became popular for the same reasons he became popular in Japan because regardless of many cultural differences, people are basically the same.
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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by Majin Jator » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:39 am

ABED wrote:
How are Toriyama's views relevant to that? Toriyama himself decided that Piccolo would become a popular character in North America
You don't think the writer's views of whether Piccolo is a stand in for blacks is relevant?
Not at all. People can find in fictional characters something that resonates with them, regardless the autor's intentions. That happens with art constantly, it speaks to different people in different ways. And obviously, if there's a large group of people in North America that connects with the character for whatever reason, that's going to have an impact in his popularity in the stated country. That is whats relevant for the question of the thread, not Toriyama's intention.

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Re: How did Piccolo become such a popular character in North America?

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:50 am

Fair enough, but there's a huge difference between finding meaning that the author didn't intend and forcing meaning. Let's not forget that Mr. Popo's look and speech patterns are based on a racial stereotype. Toriyama also draws black people with big lips, so he doesn't have the greatest track record with depicting blacks. If there are in fact a lot of people who see Piccolo as black and have connected to him for that reason, then I don't think they have the firmest grasp on Toriyama's story.
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