Things you adore and appreciate

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

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Michsi
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Re: Things you adore and appreciate

Post by Michsi » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:29 pm

Cipher wrote:
Michsi wrote:And yet: #17/#18, Cell, the focus on fighting even though he himself didn't like it. There are some contradicting statements regarding his obstinacy.
It wasn't an all-the-time, all-or-nothing thing, but I do think it's an attitude that colors the series. It's also worth noting that Torishima was a major influence in shaping Toriyama's craft, so giving weight to his ideas is in some ways part and parcel of its idiosyncratic/personal bent. Toriyama wasn't writing in a vacuum, but he also didn't seem to be catering to pressures he greatly disagreed with in respect to where the series needed to go.

(What ABED said above.)

I also think he was all-in on the fighting, even if he found drawing it irksome. And he nevertheless managed to invent more or less a whole new visual language to sell it, adapting his style to fit.
Torishima's overall influence was what I was mostly referring to as well, but not only that. Think of the Buu arc and how different it feels from the Saiyan/Freeza/Cell arc - it coincides with him starting to work with an editor that was apparently more lenient. Makes me feel like he would've had the previous arcs in that tone as well had it not been for his editors, and they were strictly focused on what makes a story more popular.
Toriyama's approach towards his work, specifically DB, had always struck me as somewhat detached, as in it was more of a job rather than a passion, so it would make sense for him be more receptive to guidance and input. I actually find it more admirable that despite taking a direction he himself did not fancy that much, he still managed to churn out something so great.

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Re: Things you adore and appreciate

Post by DragonBallKing » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:38 pm

DB Kai for it's English dub, so I have a version of the series that's watchable in English. If I ever try to get another person into the series I have an accurate version to show them.
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Original Dragon Ball arcs ranking: 23rd Budokai, Saiyan, 21st Budokai, Red Ribbon, Freeza, Piccolo Daimao, 22nd Budokai, DB Hunt, Cell, Buu

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Re: Things you adore and appreciate

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:04 pm

and they were strictly focused on what makes a story more popular.
If he was in it solely for the money, would he not be focused on what makes it "more popular" as well? And what insight do they have into what will make the story more popular that Toriyama doesn't?

The thing I appreciate is even with the various outside influences on the story, Toriyama's voice shows through. It still feels like his story.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Things you adore and appreciate

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:07 pm

Mr.DBZ. I forgot to mention him in my earlier post.

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Re: Things you adore and appreciate

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:49 pm

Dragon Ball (in general)
- It's a story about a group of super-powered beings written by a man who specializes in poop joke and gag humour, spent most of his building model planes while he drawing and writing Dragon Ball on a weekly deadline, and came up with 80% of the story on the fly. This is so not the kind of story you're really supposed to take so seriously. But it still captures your eye with either it's great battles, subtle character development or entertainingly distinctive central cast of characters.

Dragon Ball (the manga):
- The fantastic and ever evolving art-style.
- Toriyama' style of writing just oozes charisma, genuine whimsy and reflect in a product that truly feels like was a part of its time. For example, the mechanic behind Majin Boo don't need to make sense. He's magic and an alien. The deadly duo of plot tropes that allow you to make more excuses with plot inconsistency than usual. And Dragon Ball in the past is already quite guilt with breaking it own rules. But that is part Toriyama's charm. Because it really emphasizes the authentic nature of how Toriyama constructs the plot with how he writes by the seat of his pants. Some people may not appreciate it, but I do. It just makes Dragon Ball feel the more authentic and natural with the narrative flows. It's more apparent that the man behind Dragon Ball is thinking of the most instinctively creative way of moving forward the plot. On a few occasions, it didn't work out so well. But most of the time, it did spectacularly.

Z:
- The voice acting of the Japanese cast.
- Kikuchi's score
- Studio Cockpit's contributions to the anime
- Every song Hironobu Kageyama produced for the show

GT:
- The concept of the Shadow Dragons. It just feels so cumulative that the story began with the Dragon Balls and ends with them being a threat to the universe. And it helps that Old Kai remonstrated the main cast for how they abuse the Dragon Balls in the Majin Boo arc, so in reality, the Shadow Dragon were bound happen at one point or another at in Dragon Ball and it wouldn't have felt out of place at all because it was foreshadowed. Overall, everything about the Shadow Dragons on paper was fucking brilliant.
- SSJ4. The homage to the long lost form Oozaru while also tying it into the lore of the Original Super Saiyan and managing combine the characteristic of controlling your rage, much like Super Saiyan... just fantastic. No to mention the deign is awesome.

Super:
- The downtime episodes. I adore them so much. They just work far better than they should in bridging the gap from one arc to the next. It just helps the narrative feel more cohesive and structured. Plus, they're just so much... fun. Some episodes just encapsulate Dragon Ball so well with how dense, wacky, comical and surprisingly heartwarming they can be. Most of the episodes also provide the perfect balance of world building and character interactions, aspects that Dragon Ball has been historically lackluster in. Something like the main cast playing baseball, Goku losing his ability to use his ki properly or Vegeta wanting to bribe Whis with food to be his pupil should not have been as entertaining as there, but they were great episodes nonetheless and show with how even the most trivial concept for a "throwaway" episode can be so rich with unique content. Super knows that Dragon Ball can be incredibly whimsical and act on a flight of fancy and it embraces that. And that's wonderful.

Kai:
- The filler being trimmed down
- The much improved English dub. In terms of acting, casting and script.

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Re: Things you adore and appreciate

Post by Michsi » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:49 pm

ABED wrote:
and they were strictly focused on what makes a story more popular.
If he was in it solely for the money, would he not be focused on what makes it "more popular" as well? And what insight do they have into what will make the story more popular that Toriyama doesn't?
Well yeah, - I was referring to this idea that it's mainstream popularity had no influence over it, a notion I would say is somewhat debatable. And yes, it's an editor's job to keep his eyes on the readership; the author can have an overall knowledge on what sells and what not, but it's the magazine's staff that have their fingers on the pulse. This is what Weekly Shonen Jump's table of content ( TOC )basically is, a popularity ranking. While it's not the fan votes alone that determine these rankings - sometimes the editorial department decides which titles are in front - it's still a pretty good way of telling what's doing well and what isn't.
ABED wrote: The thing I appreciate is even with the various outside influences on the story, Toriyama's voice shows through. It still feels like his story.
That is true, and it's an admirable thing.

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Re: Things you adore and appreciate

Post by dbs fanboy » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:03 pm

The fact that Ultra Instinct is now a really fucking big meme it's hilarious :lol:
I really miss ma boy, Black :( :cry:


dbgtFO wrote:

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Re: Things you adore and appreciate

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:19 pm

dbs fanboy wrote:The fact that Ultra Instinct is now a really fucking big meme it's hilarious :lol:
It is? :eh:

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Re: Things you adore and appreciate

Post by dbs fanboy » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:28 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
dbs fanboy wrote:The fact that Ultra Instinct is now a really fucking big meme it's hilarious :lol:
It is? :eh:
IT IS
https://youtu.be/tBLYj_upiFk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVnGc2K6MxA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6rI0SWzlN4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm8J_S_Q3Wc
I really miss ma boy, Black :( :cry:


dbgtFO wrote:

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Re: Things you adore and appreciate

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:58 pm

it's the magazine's staff that have their fingers on the pulse.
And yet there's a common expression in Hollywood that applies here "no one in Hollywood knows anything". They only know what did sell, not what will sell. It's why there are so many box office bombs.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: Things you adore and appreciate

Post by DragonBallKing » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:13 pm

The fact that this community for the most part can look past and recognize nostalgia and judge things objectively.
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Original Dragon Ball arcs ranking: 23rd Budokai, Saiyan, 21st Budokai, Red Ribbon, Freeza, Piccolo Daimao, 22nd Budokai, DB Hunt, Cell, Buu

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Re: Things you adore and appreciate

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:28 pm

DragonBallKing wrote:The fact that this community for the most part can look past and recognize nostalgia and judge things objectively.
Or at the very least, recognize that they do like something due to nostalgia.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Things you adore and appreciate

Post by sintzu » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:13 am

The tenkaichi games as they got me into the franchise.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: Things you adore and appreciate

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:57 am

Goku admitting defeat to Beerus in the Battle of Gods film has stuck with me for so long and has become something that I adore so much. It's so nice that they called back to the lesson from the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai.

Another thing that I adore is Episode 43 of Dragon Ball Super. Kaioken Blue had some major repercussions on Goku's body, to the point where he could possibly never be able to fight again. Seeing Goku having to act normal made for some really entertaining moments. One scene that will always stick out to me is when Goku, Piccolo and Pan are sitting on the roof of Gohan and Videl's home and are just chilling while watching the night sky. Sometimes, simpler stuff like this can be just as enticing as a climactic battle. Also, this.

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Re: Things you adore and appreciate

Post by Michsi » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:19 am

ABED wrote:
it's the magazine's staff that have their fingers on the pulse.
And yet there's a common expression in Hollywood that applies here "no one in Hollywood knows anything". They only know what did sell, not what will sell. It's why there are so many box office bombs.
And yet I don't see anyone giving up on their marketing departments. But regardless, we are not talking about the competence and effectiveness of these people, just what their role. Yes, it's the artist role to come up with the story, the editorial department looks at the numbers to see if it's bringing in the cash.

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Re: Things you adore and appreciate

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:58 am

Michsi wrote:
ABED wrote:
it's the magazine's staff that have their fingers on the pulse.
And yet there's a common expression in Hollywood that applies here "no one in Hollywood knows anything". They only know what did sell, not what will sell. It's why there are so many box office bombs.
And yet I don't see anyone giving up on their marketing departments. But regardless, we are not talking about the competence and effectiveness of these people, just what their role. Yes, it's the artist role to come up with the story, the editorial department looks at the numbers to see if it's bringing in the cash.
I don't get your point. Marketing departments aren't mystics. They don't know anything more than anyone else. The best they can do is inform people of the product. Marketing and the artist are still making creative decisions that require judgment calls because they don't know what WILL sell, only what DID sell. And there are plenty of times that chasing trends doesn't pay off. Toriyama could've changed to a more action heavy story after the Pilaf arc and had he not told a compelling story with good action, chasing that trend could've lead to nothing. What made it a good idea is that while it was a noticeable shift in direction, it was still within the world that DB had set up and it's pretty clear when reading it that Toriyama did enjoy drawing and writing the action.

That's something else I appreciate - when a writer can change gear while keeping within the established world.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Things you adore and appreciate

Post by Michsi » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:35 am

ABED wrote:
Michsi wrote:
ABED wrote: And yet there's a common expression in Hollywood that applies here "no one in Hollywood knows anything". They only know what did sell, not what will sell. It's why there are so many box office bombs.
And yet I don't see anyone giving up on their marketing departments. But regardless, we are not talking about the competence and effectiveness of these people, just what their role. Yes, it's the artist role to come up with the story, the editorial department looks at the numbers to see if it's bringing in the cash.
I don't get your point. Marketing departments aren't mystics. They don't know anything more than anyone else. The best they can do is inform people of the product. Marketing and the artist are still making creative decisions that require judgment calls because they don't know what WILL sell, only what DID sell. And there are plenty of times that chasing trends doesn't pay off. Toriyama could've changed to a more action heavy story after the Pilaf arc and had he not told a compelling story with good action, chasing that trend could've lead to nothing. What made it a good idea is that while it was a noticeable shift in direction, it was still within the world that DB had set up and it's pretty clear when reading it that Toriyama did enjoy drawing and writing the action.
???? I don't get your post as well. When and how did I imply that marketing departments are all knowing entities that have the gift of clairvoyance and can do no wrong. Of course they get things wrong sometimes, or a lot of the times, but they also get a lot things right. There's a reason it exist and is treated as an essential component of business. And that is what Shueisha is, a business. Marketing does more than just handle promotion- it does market analysis, studies trends, determines demographics, and evaluates customer satisfaction , aka all the boring stuff you'd think has no business being anywhere near the creative process, but I'm sorry, it's part of it a lot more than people would like to think it is, especially when it comes to something as big as Weekly Shonen Jump.
All I said is that, by his own admission, Toriyama took a direction he himself wasn't that fond of and the reason for that was to help it's popularity. I'm not at all saying he became this blank slate that let his editors decide everything for four whole arcs, but that he was very receptive to their suggestions.

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Re: Things you adore and appreciate

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:59 am

Of course it is, but it's still people and regardless of their conclusions, it's no guarantee that chasing those trends will make whatever title sell better.
by his own admission, Toriyama took a direction he himself wasn't that fond of
When did he say that? I don't recall him ever saying that or even implying that. Plus, I can't imagine him spending 10 years of his life meeting ambitious weekly deadlines on something he wasn't fond of. I've read many of the translated interviews and while he might not have wanted to change in that direction at the start, "I decided to bite the bullet and make it all about the fighting. Once that decision was out of the way, I felt a lot better."
he was very receptive to their suggestions.
Yes, but he made them HIS. That's what I like about Toriyama's style. The editorial suggestions aren't obvious. Toriyama has this great talent to make it all fit together.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: Things you adore and appreciate

Post by Michsi » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:54 am

ABED wrote:Of course it is, but it's still people and regardless of their conclusions, it's no guarantee that chasing those trends will make whatever title sell better.
Again, not the point I was even alluding to. I wasn't commenting on efficiency or success probability, but that it exists and that it plays a part in the creative process.
When did he say that? I don't recall him ever saying that or even implying that. Plus, I can't imagine him spending 10 years of his life meeting ambitious weekly deadlines on something he wasn't fond of. I've read many of the translated interviews and while he might not have wanted to change in that direction at the start, "I decided to bite the bullet and make it all about the fighting. Once that decision was out of the way, I felt a lot better."
For example:
As for me personally, though, I much prefer drawing dumb jokes to battle scenes.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/

His interviews are peppered with statements like this, including the interview you quoted. Look how many times he cites popularity as a reason for his decisions. In the end, even Goku growing up wasn't determined by an artistic preference, but by the objective of making it easier for him to draw.

I'm not saying he hated working on DB, but that he treated it as a job. It wan't a passion project like Oda's One Piece. I'll have to look it up, but I believe there was even an interview where he was once asked if he felt like going back and correcting some of the scenes in the manga he answered that it was a mix between nostalgia and desire to never draw Dragon ball again. And this was a good long while after he finished working on it. A lot of people's opinion that he hadn't been too happy working on DB came from here, which is why they also rejoiced when he started to actually show legitimate interest in Super's development.

Yes, but he made them HIS.
Something I already agreed to.

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Re: Things you adore and appreciate

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:01 am

I think you are dropping context. ""I decided to bite the bullet and make it all about the fighting. Once that decision was out of the way, I felt a lot better." You linger on the first part of this kind of statement, the part about biting the bullet, but seem to disregard the last sentence.

It might not have been his idea to change the direction of the story but came around to it. As for not wanting to draw DB again after ending it, can you blame him? He met an ambitious weekly deadline for 10 straight years! This coming from a guy that considers himself lazy. And yes, it wasn't a passion project like for some author's, but Toriyama said straight up that he got into drawing manga for the money.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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