Do you still hate Dragonball GT?

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I can't name any concrete examples right now because it's been ages since I've seen GT. This is just me remembering how I felt about it since my childhood. Generally speaking I feel like there were more comic relief scenes than ever involving Goku, and his behavior just felt more childish. Not that he couldn't get serious while fighting, but I dunno. Maybe I only think this way because he looks like a child.

Maybe its a perception, because I hear that argument a lot as well but nobody can cite any contrasting examples but sum up just because he physically was a child, that he regressed. I actually thought he acted the same as he did in the Buu Saga, just had a somewhat reduced role early in GT. Then again the tone was lighter as well, but he didn't act more childish in GT.

[Whatever]

No,but i most likely would dislike dragonball super more if i had not watched GT beforehand.

[t0ffe3m4n]

GT had some of the best ideas & direction in the entire franchise, it just suffered (only at times mind you) from some poor execution, not too dissimilar from Super.

If the first arc was tidied up a little bit and the art remained consistently good across the entire series then it would've been propelled to 'great' status imo.

[Timetraveller]

GT had some of the best ideas & direction in the entire franchise, it just suffered (only at times mind you) from some poor execution, not too dissimilar from Super.

If the first arc was tidied up a little bit and the art remained consistently good across the entire series then it would've been propelled to 'great' status imo.

You'd also have to attach Toriyama's name somewhere because "nothing not written by the original author can ever be good". Dragonball GT "Adapted from the outlines of Toriyama" then it would be accepted by the fans

[VegettoEX]

You'd also have to attach Toriyama's name somewhere because "nothing not written by the original author can ever be good". Dragonball GT "Adapted from the outlines of Toriyama" then it would be accepted by the fans

This appears to be more of the same antagonistic/passive-aggressive material you were just cited and warned for in the Dragon Ball Super sub-section.

This will be your final free warning. Account strikes follow, which add up to temporary/permanent bans. These revoke access to the entirety of the Kanzenshuu website. Please review the community guidelines and re-evaluate what it is you are looking to get out of your time here.

Sweeping generalizations meant to belittle other fans are not acceptable. If you have nothing to say, you truly have nothing to say.

[Jord]

He does have a point though. Work done by the original author always seems to get more of a pass, just because of the name value alone. Even when his work isn't up to snuff, the name alone brings more perceived value to the brand.

[t0ffe3m4n]

He does have a point though. Work done by the original author always seems to get more of a pass, just because of the name value alone. Even when his work isn't up to snuff, the name alone brings more perceived value to the brand.

I have personally witnessed multiple people, including on here, dismiss GT outright for not being Toriyama's 'work' and little else. It's a genuine mindset.

[Timetraveller]

You'd also have to attach Toriyama's name somewhere because "nothing not written by the original author can ever be good". Dragonball GT "Adapted from the outlines of Toriyama" then it would be accepted by the fans

This appears to be more of the same antagonistic/passive-aggressive material you were just cited and warned for in the Dragon Ball Super sub-section.

This will be your final free warning. Account strikes follow, which add up to temporary/permanent bans. These revoke access to the entirety of the Kanzenshuu website. Please review the community guidelines and re-evaluate what it is you are looking to get out of your time here.

Sweeping generalizations meant to belittle other fans are not acceptable. If you have nothing to say, you truly have nothing to say.

I respect the moderating so I'll keep it to a minimum. Although what I said has some merit even if you disagree with it. You'll find many comments here that will Toriyama's involvement with Super to discredit or belittle GT fans and the show itself. Like the previous comment said it's a genuine mindset and no difference to for example the dub/funimation hate that gets perpetuated around here and other platforms. Everyone has an opinion. Consistent moderating is key and you guys usually do a decent job at it. The passive-aggressiveness was clearly not aimed at any member here but at the fanbase in general. There's no way anyone would've have found it offensive and I make an effort to ensure that nothing I say is personally directed towards another forum member.

What am I looking to get out of my time here? The same thing as everyone else as fans of the franchise. Discussing personal biases people have against something is part of it.

[sintzu]

You'd also have to attach Toriyama's name somewhere because "nothing not written by the original author can ever be good".

At this point the franchise should get a new writer as his writing quality hasn't lived up to his original work let alone the standards set by what came after.

[KinguKurimuzon]

I can honestly say that I've never hated GT. I knew it couldn't possibly be as bad as everyone says it is going in, and I was totally right. It's undeniably flawed (even moreso than DBZ), but it has this nostalgic twinge to it, like you can tell that it's the creation of a bunch of fans that just wanted to pay tribute to the wonderful adventure they'd been lovingly following for 12 years at that point. I think that kind of passion can more than make up for the logical inconsistencies in the writing, the plots ripped straight from older DB material and thrown into a blender, the treatment of every character that isn't Goku, ect, ect...

Also Super Saiyan 4 is fucking cool.

[Robo4900]

He does have a point though. Work done by the original author always seems to get more of a pass, just because of the name value alone. Even when his work isn't up to snuff, the name alone brings more perceived value to the brand.

I have personally witnessed multiple people, including on here, dismiss GT outright for not being Toriyama's 'work' and little else. It's a genuine mindset.

Absolutely. I think this works in reverse too; I'm convinced the fact Super has Toriyama's name on it is a massive reason why so many people are so forgiving of Super, despite its obvious, numerous, and very deep flaws.
Maybe I'm wrong, but this is what I think, and aside from the obvious rose tinted glasses(Or, perhaps Rosé tinted glasses? ), and hype, this is the only thing I can think of that would explain why some -- like myself -- consider Super to be an unmitigated disaster of a show, while others unconditionally love it, and defend every one of its flaws to the bitter end.

Though, I feel I should clarify at this point that there's nothing wrong with liking something, therefore there's nothing wrong with the phenomenon I'm describing; anyone who tries to take away your enjoyment of something is absolutely not worth your time -- all I'm trying to do here is to figure out why people like the Super anime, and why I hate it. And at the moment, this is my hypothesis; nostalgia and Toriyama's name dulls a lot of peoples' cynicism away, allowing a lot of people to enjoy it without being bothered by its flaws all that much. Unfortunately, since GT is known to not have Toriyama attached, and has such a hatedom online, people approach it with a heightened level of cynicism, and tend to just dismiss it straight away without giving it a fair shake. Or even if they do give it a fair shake in isolation, since the one viewing it likely already has a lot of much warmer feelings for Dragon Ball Z, Super, and hopefully the original series too(Though most likely not ) thanks to nostalgia, and Toriyama's name, they end up being disappointed by GT, and so they return to the shows they have warmer feelings for, and thus, GT's hatedom only grows.

I respect the moderating so I'll keep it to a minimum. Although what I said has some merit even if you disagree with it. You'll find many comments here that will Toriyama's involvement with Super to discredit or belittle GT fans and the show itself. Like the previous comment said it's a genuine mindset and no difference to for example the dub/funimation hate that gets perpetuated around here and other platforms. Everyone has an opinion. Consistent moderating is key and you guys usually do a decent job at it. The passive-aggressiveness was clearly not aimed at any member here but at the fanbase in general. There's no way anyone would've have found it offensive and I make an effort to ensure that nothing I say is personally directed towards another forum member.

What am I looking to get out of my time here? The same thing as everyone else as fans of the franchise. Discussing personal biases people have against something is part of it.

I don't like to challenge the mod team, I have a lot of respect for them, but I must say, I think suggesting people are biased in favour of Super, and against GT is an entirely fair point to make.
Unfortunately, the words used aren't ideal, but the underlying points have merit. Being passive-aggressive towards the fandom at large isn't exactly a nice thing to do, though. Ultimately, even if someone has a bias you consider unfair, as far as they're concerned, it's likely either totally fair, or something they can't do anything about, and while the former case is an interesting debate to have on a philosophical level, the latter case is something that's very difficult to counter; after all, it's very difficult to go in with an open mind to something you already have pre-conceived opinions on.

If I had the time, this would probably be a good jumping off point for me to go into a fairly long thing about the merit of nostalgia when it comes to judging shows like GT and Super, but I'd probably bore everyone to death, and I'd be going quite a bit off-topic, so let's just leave it at this: I don't consider nostalgia to be a bad thing; it's a positive bias, so all it will really do is make you enjoy something more, which you'd have a hard time convincing me is a bad thing.

I realise I've deviated quite a bit from really responding to the points raised in the quoted message; I was really using it more as a jumping off point to make some other points related to my above stuff about Super, GT, cynicism, etc. Apologies to Timetraveller if this appears rude; it wasn't my intention.

You'd also have to attach Toriyama's name somewhere because "nothing not written by the original author can ever be good".

At this point the franchise should get a new writer as his writing quality hasn't lived up to his original work let alone the standards set by what came after.

On one hand, I kind of agree. On the other, given what Toyotaro has been doing with the Super manga, I don't think the solution here is to fire Toriyama as the head writer; I think the solution is to have Toyotaro and Toriyama do the manga on a regular schedule(Perhaps once a week, maybe once every two weeks if they need more time for it), then have the anime be created on a seasonal basis, adapted from the manga.

[sintzu]

On one hand, I kind of agree. On the other, given what Toyotaro has been doing with the Super manga, I don't think the solution here is to fire Toriyama as the head writer; I think the solution is to have Toyotaro and Toriyama do the manga on a regular schedule(Perhaps once a week, maybe once every two weeks if they need more time for it), then have the anime be created on a seasonal basis, adapted from the manga.

I think what they should do is tell him to either give them actual stories or get someone to work with him. Toyotarou would be a good option.

[Robo4900]

I think what they should do is tell him to either give them actual stories or get someone to work with him. Toyotarou would be a good option.

Eh, I think my way is probably the better way of going about that; Toyotaro would get to continue to focus on making the manga great, Toriyama would be able to work with him to ensure the story is the best it can be in his view, and Toei get a complete, well-rounded story to base their anime off of.


Also, I somehow missed this post before, so I'm going to drop some quick notes here:

the plots ripped straight from older DB material and thrown into a blender

Let's be fair, though; that only ever really happened in the first arc, and only for like one episode(Though, they did stretch it out into a two-parter for some reason... >_>).

the treatment of every character that isn't Goku, ect, ect...

Eh, aside from the hunt for the Dark Dragon Balls, the side characters got quite a lot of stuff going on, it's just that Goku was the only one doing any meaningful fighting.
Battle Of Gods did the exact same thing, and no one complained.
And seriously, compare the plot structure of Battle Of Gods and the Baby arc, they're very similar -- Goku is in space, and meets a baddy, who goes to earth; on earth, the baddy wreaks havoc, and no one can stop him; when Goku returns to Earth, he unlocks a new form, and uses it to fight fight the new baddy, but he runs out of power, but he does get a second wind, and the fight continues.

Still, I do agree with your post on the whole. Just thought these points might warrant some additional discussion.

[sintzu]

I think what they should do is tell him to either give them actual stories or get someone to work with him. Toyotarou would be a good option.

Eh, I think my way is probably the better way of going about that; Toyotaro would get to continue to focus on making the manga great, Toriyama would be able to work with him to ensure the story is the best it can be in his view, and Toei get a complete, well-rounded story to base their anime off of.

I'm open to anything that'll result in something more than just vague outlines. A weekly manga would go a long way in fixing this issue.

[Robo4900]

I'm open to anything that'll result in something more than just vague outlines. A weekly manga would go a long way in fixing this issue.

Indeed. One big reason I'm big on my idea is that Super being seasonal rather than all year round would mean the show wouldn't have to be as rushed, which might mean better animation, and potentially more well-thought-out plotting. It would also mean that if they're basing it off a weekly manga, they don't have to pad for time so they can get a weekly show out if they don't have enough manga material. But, we wouldn't have to totally lose the non-manga slice of life material, though the arc material would probably run at a much faster pace.

[Jord]

Interestingly enough, while the series gets a lot of flak, the GT tv special seems to be viewed in a much more positive light. I liked the special a lot, it felt like a Dragonball-era adventure.

[KinguKurimuzon]

the plots ripped straight from older DB material and thrown into a blender

Let's be fair, though; that only ever really happened in the first arc, and only for like one episode(Though, they did stretch it out into a two-parter for some reason... >_>).

I probably could've phrased this better, but I meant that they took a bunch of stuff from previous stories and used them as the basis for at least two arcs. Baby has striking similarities to Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans (and the Garlic Jr. Saga from what I understand about it, I never watched it), and Super 17 rips off Fusion Reborn with how Hell is opened up.

the treatment of every character that isn't Goku, ect, ect...

Eh, aside from the hunt for the Dark Dragon Balls, the side characters got quite a lot of stuff going on, it's just that Goku was the only one doing any meaningful fighting.
Battle Of Gods did the exact same thing, and no one complained.
And seriously, compare the plot structure of Battle Of Gods and the Baby arc, they're very similar -- Goku is in space, and meets a baddy, who goes to earth; on earth, the baddy wreaks havoc, and no one can stop him; when Goku returns to Earth, he unlocks a new form, and uses it to fight fight the new baddy, but he runs out of power, but he does get a second wind, and the fight continues.

That was a mistake on my part, I forgot that Piccolo was the only character that really got thrown under the bus in GT. That's what happens when you post at nearly three in the morning.

[Robo4900]

I probably could've phrased this better, but I meant that they took a bunch of stuff from previous stories and used them as the basis for at least two arcs. Baby has striking similarities to Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans (and the Garlic Jr. Saga from what I understand about it, I never watched it), and Super 17 rips off Fusion Reborn with how Hell is opened up.

Eh, those are only minor similarities in premise and aesthetics; the actual stories are very different.
Garlic Jr. has people get brainwashed, but they basically just go crazy and start killing each-other, while Baby had everyone become part of his weird pod people hivemind, a bit like the mind control in Avengers Assemble.
Plan To Eradicate The Saiyans is, from what I understand(Haven't seen it all the way through before), a Tsufurian scientist getting revenge, but he does it by bringing ghosts of movie villains back, and unleashing a deadly gas on Earth. Baby gets revenge on the Saiyans by conquering the minds of all Earthlings to rebuild their civilisation on the Tsufurian planet.
Super #17 does open up a portal to hell, but while I haven't seen Fusion Reborn(I know, I know. I'm working through the movies slowly; saw Coola 2 last week), I don't think it involves a clone going to Earth and merging with his counterpart to form a superbeing capable of challenging Goku.

That was a mistake on my part, I forgot that Piccolo was the only character that really got thrown under the bus in GT. That's what happens when you post at nearly three in the morning.

Haha. Honestly, I didn't think Piccolo got thrown under the bus. His moment with Gohan when the world is getting destroyed, then his stuff with Goku in hell, and especially the farewell scene with him in episode 64 were all great IMO.
I suppose he was a little underused, but really, I don't think he could have been used anywhere else in GT without being rather unnecessary.

[ABED]

Someone brought up the reuse of the Holy water as rehashing the Garlic Jr. arc. To the best of my recollection, there wasn't a time limit when the effects of the Holy water wouldn't work after a certain point. But the reuse of the holy water isn't bad writing. It's good. Why come up with some other way of saving everyone from Baby's pods when the means had been set up years prior?

[Sailor Haumea]

You'd also have to attach Toriyama's name somewhere because "nothing not written by the original author can ever be good".

At this point the franchise should get a new writer as his writing quality hasn't lived up to his original work let alone the standards set by what came after.

Yeah, Minus is very, very bad. It's weird considering how good Jaco is.