Has Modern Dragon Ball made the Dragon Ball World too small?

[ABED]

But he didn't. DB is a LONG story. DB alone is 153 episodes. DB is very fleshed out and very large.

The story and characters? Certainly. The world? Not so much. It doesn't matter because the world isn't directly tied with the characters' objectives or occupations, but it doesn't mean the world feels large.

I think it feels smaller as a result of everything we know about. The adjective I would use is simplistic, as opposed to small.

Okay is the issue that Toriyama puts limits on the story? If so, why is that an issue?

I really have no idea why your feel your opinion is the definitive authority on whether people should like lore in general. Some do and some don’t. I’m not arguing that you should like lore over story but you seem intent on arguing that story is greater than lore for everyone and it’s not. It’s proven fact that it isn’t because plenty of things exist as just lore alone without cohesive story.

My issue is that people put far too much emphasis on things that don't matter as much, like lore and continuity to the point where I believe it interferes with their enjoyment.

Actually it does, or it CAN, because as I said, it gives the story and characters more weight and makes them more interesting.

You can't possibly expand on everything and every character in a story. Stories require selectivity otherwise you sacrifice things like pacing.

[Doctor.]

Okay is the issue that Toriyama puts limits on the story? If so, why is that an issue?

No, the issue is that he reaches those limits. The characters are left with nowhere to climb, so he has to introduce more and more rehashed ideas and concepts to give the characters something to do. If he took the time to flesh out the actions the characters take to reach that one limit, rather than introducing limit after limit for the characters to surpass, then it would be more beneficial to the story.

[ABED]

Okay is the issue that Toriyama puts limits on the story? If so, why is that an issue?

No, the issue is that he reaches those limits. The characters are left with nowhere to climb, so he has to introduce more and more rehashed ideas and concepts to give the characters something to do. If he took the time to flesh out the time the characters take to reach that one limit, rather than introducing limit after limit for the characters to surpass, then it would be more beneficial to the story.

Interesting points, could you keep going because it seems like you were implying bringing Piccolo into the story was an example of that ceiling. However, he's introduced 100 episodes into the story.

The thing is, in the real world, there's no best. They might be the best at a given thing, but there are natural limits, the most obvious being time. As old as Roshi was, I liked that he bowed out gracefully because he was old. If he was young, it would've been a different story. If old age became a factor, that could be something relatively new to the series. As it is, Goku has yet to reach his prime because he keeps getting stronger.

[Michsi]

Most apparently do.

Who is "most"?

Didn't I explain this already in the previous post? Most readers/viewers/fans - whatever. If you were to make a poll asking whether or not world-building is important to a story I assure you most would answer with YES. Even in this thread seems to be in favor of world-building as an important element.

[ABED]

Most apparently do.

Who is "most"?

Didn't I explain this already in the previous post? Most readers/viewers/fans - whatever. If you were to make a poll asking whether or not world-building is important to a story I assure you most would answer with YES. Even in this thread seems to be in favor of world-building as an important element.

I don't think that's true. I think most people are casual viewers/readers. They like things but they don't get hung up on things like timelines and canon and continuity. For example, not that many in the scheme of things cares about the lack of continuity in the Bond movies, to the point that no one gave a damn that Bond met Blofeld in You Only Live Twice and conveniently didn't in On Her Majesty's Secret Service.

The lack of continuity in the X-Men movies hasn't stopped them from being incredibly successful. On the internet, you will hear nothing but complaints about the movies and their lack adherence to continuity and canon. That is but one reason for me to think those fans are a drop in the bucket of the viewing audience.

[Noah]

Yes and great thread by the way, I'll give my point:

In the original serialization we got that Earth is huge and might have some guys stronger than the protagonist and that was expanded to galaxies and then to the whole universe.

We know the Saiyans and Freeza ruled and destroyed a lot of planets, but I once interpreted these conflicts were situated only in the North Galaxy, then we later know Freeza is feared in the whole universe, so sure his empire is present in another galaxies too, that's okay.

Universe 7 is a universe that was once taken care by a bunch of Kaioshin that were later killed by Boo, divided by 4 galaxies which one ruled by a different Kai,but that only has 28 inhabited planets? It doesn't feel right.

It seems Toriyama avoided applying the same formula to the other universes: all the other eleven ones are ruled by one Kaioshin (we don't know about their galaxies or different Kais yet). Also it doesn't feel much of a deal travelling to another universe, which I think it could be more 'complicated'. Whis, Beerus and Goku going to the Kaioshin planet of the Universe 10 was way too easy.

I'm a big fan of world building and I thought introducing another universes would mean we could have arcs exploring these places, but we even don't know much about U6 the twin universe of the main one.

[Doctor.]

Interesting points, could you keep going because it seems like you were implying bringing Piccolo into the story was an example of that ceiling. However, he's introduced 100 episodes into the story.

The entire series always had the problem of introducing a limit in one arc, only to surpass it in the very next one. Piccolo was one of those, probably the one that burst the bubble and made the series have nowhere left to go but space, all because he was established as the ultimate evil, the biggest threat Earth had ever faced. But it all started with Roshi, who was introduced as this wise, experienced martial artist whose name everyone knew. And he gets all but surpassed in the next arc, and the RRA and 22nd Budokai arcs function as confirmation with Tao and Tenshinhan being brought out from nowhere.

The series just escalates. Vegeta is touted as the strongest in the universe, then we get introduced to Freeza. Then Cell. Then Boo. Then Beerus. It just keeps going. You don't need to state that the antagonist you just introduced is the "strongest guy ever" but the series keeps doing it. Then, as it keeps going, it has nowhere left to climb, so it produces a makeshift ladder out of rehashed concepts, which is why the structure of the series feels so repetitive. And that's how we've gotten to the point that not only Earth, but the entire universe is now irrelevant. This constant escalation makes the world feel simplistic, as you've stated. Who cares about a certain locale if the strongest guy there was already defeated? Move on to the next place.

[ABED]

My point is that 100 episodes is a lot. Sure, you can milk those limits more, but we got plenty of out of it. 153 episode before you introduce an alien threat is A LOT!

The value Roshi brought to the story was experience. He wasn't just a roadblock for Goku to overcome. Goku may have overcome him quickly, but he still had stronger enemies to overcome. Tenshinhan doesn't come from out of nowhere. It makes sense in that world that there would be strong enemies from rival schools. It also worked thematically because Tenshinhan was a part of the next generation that Roshi was waiting for before retiring with grace.

Vegeta was touted BY HIMSELF as the strongest. By the time the Freeza arc is over, the series is now 250+ episodes. How is that soon? Okay, the story has nowhere left to go after Freeza, but 250 episodes of any series is a damn good run.

What are you asking for? For the series to have gone 300 episodes before getting to Freeza? At a certain point, it goes from exploring to milking to just treading water. One of my favorite things about iZombie is that it gets a lot of its ideas without treading water, then asks new questions and creates new paradigms. It feels like the story is moving, but not so quickly that it can't be savored.

[Michsi]

Who is "most"?

Didn't I explain this already in the previous post? Most readers/viewers/fans - whatever. If you were to make a poll asking whether or not world-building is important to a story I assure you most would answer with YES. Even in this thread seems to be in favor of world-building as an important element.

I don't think that's true. I think most people are casual viewers/readers. They like things but they don't get hung up on things like timelines and canon and continuity. For example, not that many in the scheme of things cares about the lack of continuity in the Bond movies, to the point that no one gave a damn that Bond met Blofeld in You Only Live Twice and conveniently didn't in On Her Majesty's Secret Service.

The lack of continuity in the X-Men movies hasn't stopped them from being incredibly successful. On the internet, you will hear nothing but complaints about the movies and their lack adherence to continuity and canon. That is but one reason for me to think those fans are a drop in the bucket of the viewing audience.

Continuity and world-building are different story elements, though.

Let's look at another example: the "space jokey" scene from the first Alien movie. It had no great narrative relevance, and the higher-ups wanted to drop because it was too expensive, but Ridley Scott still insisted on adding it because it would add to the movie's overall feel and quality. World-building doesn't need to be 20 pages worth of exposition, it can be incorporated effectively just as the plot unfolds, and even if it's just there to server as a backdrop, backdrops are still essential to almost every art form.

[TheMikado]

My issue is that people put far too much emphasis on things that don't matter as much, like lore and continuity to the point where I believe it interferes with their enjoyment.

But I keep saying they don’t matter to YOU. Several people in this thread have already said that these things matter to them.

Shoot if “continuity” didn’t matter to people then we wouldn’t have arguments of the canonicity of GT every other week. It matters to a lot of people, for some more than story and trying to establish your personal opinion as some kind of empiral truth doesn’t make it valid. Some people care about lore even more than story, some people need both, and some don’t care at all. All are perfectly valid ways for people to enjoy a piece. Why try to tell people they can’t enjoy something the way they want to enjoy it. How can you really say “hey you’re enjoying that story the wrong way”

[Doctor.]

My point is that 100 episodes is a lot. Sure, you can milk those limits more, but we got plenty of out of it. 153 episode before you introduce an alien threat is A LOT!

The length of a series is relative. 150 episodes is a lot for you, but to someone else it may be nothing at all. It certainly was too much for Toriyama, and that's why I understand his decision to constantly introduce a "strongest ever" character in every new arc instead of planning out a series of enemies and threats.

The value Roshi brought to the story was experience. He wasn't just a roadblock for Goku to overcome. Goku may have overcome him quickly, but he still had stronger enemies to overcome. Tenshinhan doesn't come from out of nowhere. It makes sense in that world that there would be strong enemies from rival schools. It also worked thematically because Tenshinhan was a part of the next generation that Roshi was waiting for before retiring with grace.

Roshi was basically a legendary figure. His move, the Kamehameha, would be feared by every enemy in the series from the point he used it for the first time. He was no joke. And he got surpassed in an instant. I don't take issue with Roshi being surpassed, not much at least, I take issue with him catching up two arcs later off-screen, right after he said Goku had reached a level none of them could attain in the Red Ribbon arc. If Roshi wasn't a big, important figure in the world, he wouldn't be tied to every event that happened on Earth moving forward from his introduction.

All of these problems (the simplistic world, new characters showing up from nowhere to function as a new ceiling and characters powering-up ridiculously) are all tied together by Toriyama's disinterested in the writing process.

Vegeta was touted BY HIMSELF as the strongest. By the time the Freeza arc is over, the series is now 250+ episodes. How is that soon? Okay, the story has nowhere left to go after Freeza, but 250 episodes of any series is a damn good run.

Considering the series has more than double that episode length by this point, I think it's fair to say it has become a problem. Analyzing where the root of that problem lies is important.

[AgitoZ]

Some of the new information we have gotten from Toriyama in recent interviews has most definitely made the world of Dragon Ball smaller. Like that one about how Mr. Satan's teacher was killed by Tao Pai Pai. I'm sure Toriyama thought that was a neat bit of info but all it did was unnecessarily shrink the world.

[ABED]

Are you referring to that big skeleton thing that has the whole in its chest? That's a good example of world building, but I think of it as more an example of setting a mood and creating tension.

You point at Lord of the Rings, and I'll throw it right back as being unnecessarily convoluted. There are chapters that lead nowhere like the one with Tom Bombadil. The Hobbit is an even better example. In the book, it's bad enough that Gandalf just leaves for something irrelevant to the story, but in the movies, we see his story and it does little beyond add to the runtime.

Roshi wasn't surpassed in an instant. He was several hundred years old. He is an important character to the world beyond simply acting as an obstacle for Goku to overcome. It also serves to prove his point that there's always someone stronger. I also have no issue with him catching up off-screen in the first series because it made sense in light of his fighting incognito in the tournament. He would try to keep up with his students. Ultimately, he is surpassed. It's much better than you make it out to be. It certainly makes more sense than how it was handled in Super.

I don't think Tenshinhan came out of nowhere. While he serves as an obstacle for Goku to overcome, he also has his own character arc, one of the best of the series. It's not fair to lump him in with the lack of complexity on Namek.

The length of a series is relative. 150 episodes is a lot for you, but to someone else it may be nothing at all.

I will grant you that it's relative which is why I feel like DB moves better than some shows that last for 20 episodes, BUT 100 episodes of anything is still a healthy amount of time spent before creating a massive paradigm shift.

Analyzing where the root of that problem lies is important.

The root is continuing the story past a logical endpoint.

[Doctor.]

Roshi wasn't surpassed in an instant. He was several hundred years old. He is an important character to the world beyond simply acting as an obstacle for Goku to overcome. It also serves to prove his point that there's always someone stronger.

Roshi is surpassed and becomes an important character during the 22nd tournament and the Daimao arc. He's completely forgotten in the RRA arc right after he's surpassed, which lead me to believe that he was just another obstacle Goku had to surpass until Toriyama ran out of ideas and needed to find a way to make up some new story arcs. That's how Roshi caught up to Goku off-screen after describing his power as unattainable in the previous arc.

I don't think Tenshinhan came out of nowhere. While he serves as an obstacle for Goku to overcome, he also has his own character arc, one of the best of the series. It's not fair to lump him in with the lack of complexity on Namek.

Tenshinhan serves no purpose in the story after his arc. He has a couple of character moments here and there, but that's about it. He doesn't affect the plot, he doesn't change anything.

I will grant you that it's relative which is why I feel like DB moves better than some shows that last for 20 episodes, BUT 100 episodes of anything is still a healthy amount of time spent before creating a massive paradigm shift.

100 episodes is nothing in the medium that Dragon Ball is in. Though, in fairness, it was mostly due to Dragon Ball that the trend of super long battle Shounen series started.

[ABED]

Roshi wasn't forgotten, not any more so than Bulma or Kuririn. He's simply not part of a story where Goku is on a personal journey. I don't recall him calling Goku's power unattainable.

Tenshinhan serves no purpose in the story after his arc. He has a couple of character moments here and there, but that's about it. He doesn't affect the plot, he doesn't change anything.

He saves Goku's life and regardless of how quickly he's surpassed, his story arc alone is enough to prove he brings value to the story as a character in and of himself. He goes through a change in character. That's a great story that has nothing to do with him being an obstacle.

100 episodes is nothing in the medium that Dragon Ball is in.

That doesn't mean all those series are good.

[Noah]

I actually feel that Toriyama was actually quite skilled at world and lore building.

I disagree, I think Toei is better in this point: the biggest example being Bardock that Toriyama later ruined and a lot of filler content when characters had to train or whatever else.

For example, not that many in the scheme of things cares about the lack of continuity in the Bond movies, to the point that no one gave a damn that Bond met Blofeld in You Only Live Twice and conveniently didn't in On Her Majesty's Secret Service.

No one gave a damn mainly because they were different actors, even though Connery returned in Diamonds Are Forever, it was later implied that the continuity is followed according to the current actor films. The most recent example being that Spectre connects all the things that happened in the last three Craig movies.

[Doctor.]

Roshi wasn't forgotten, not any more so than Bulma or Kuririn. He's simply not part of a story where Goku is on a personal journey. I don't recall him calling Goku's power unattainable.

The point is that Toriyama reduces the scope of his own world by introducing the strongest characters and then surpassing them almost immediately. Roshi was the first example of this. I didn't argue that he was badly utilized afterwards, I argued that the role he played in the later arcs probably wasn't the role he was intended to have.

[ABED]

The point is that Toriyama reduces the scope of his own world by introducing the strongest characters and then surpassing them almost immediately. Roshi was the first example of this. I didn't argue that he was badly utilized afterwards, I argued that the role he played in the later arcs probably wasn't the role he was intended to have.

Roshi was never said to be the strongest. He won a tournament, but he says very early on that there's always someone stronger. And it doesn't matter if the role he played later wasn't what was intended, the change still works in the story. Like it doesn't matter what the reasons are behind the scenes for a change, it's the job of the storyteller to make it work. For instance, in Deadpool, there was originally supposed to be a huge gun battle in the final act of the movie, but because the budget didn't allow for that scene, the writers just had Wade forget it in the cab. It works because Wade is the type of character who could forget his ammo bag. Given Roshi's age, it's very appropriate that he would be surpassed and become more of a mentor than an active fighter and obstacle to overcome. I would say Roshi wasn't surpassed until Goku trained with Karin which was about 30 episodes later. To me, that's a lot.

No one gave a damn mainly because they were different actors, even though Connery returned in Diamonds Are Forever, it was later implied that the continuity is followed according to the current actor films.

Except that rule is followed arbitrarily. In one of the Moore movies, we see him looking at his wife's gravestone. In Licence to Kill, Felix tells his wife that Bond was once married. Point is that the people who go to those movies don't care about strict adherence to continuity one way or the other, even if it's the same actor.

[Doctor.]

The point is that Toriyama reduces the scope of his own world by introducing the strongest characters and then surpassing them almost immediately. Roshi was the first example of this. I didn't argue that he was badly utilized afterwards, I argued that the role he played in the later arcs probably wasn't the role he was intended to have.

Roshi was never said to be the strongest. He won a tournament, but he says very early on that there's always someone stronger. And it doesn't matter if the role he played later wasn't what was intended, the change still works in the story. Like it doesn't matter what the reasons are behind the scenes for a change, it's the job of the storyteller to make it work. For instance, in Deadpool, there was originally supposed to be a huge gun battle in the final act of the movie, but because the budget didn't allow for that scene, the writers just had Wade forget it in the cab. It works because Wade is the type of character who could forget his ammo bag. Given Roshi's age, it's very appropriate that he would be surpassed and become more of a mentor than an active fighter and obstacle to overcome. I would say Roshi wasn't surpassed until Goku trained with Karin which was about 30 episodes later. To me, that's a lot.

I think you're being slightly disingenuous by using the anime as a measuring stick for how much time something takes, considering the manga, which is the original source, is much faster paced. "Z" already starts at chapter 195.

[ABED]

The point is that Toriyama reduces the scope of his own world by introducing the strongest characters and then surpassing them almost immediately. Roshi was the first example of this. I didn't argue that he was badly utilized afterwards, I argued that the role he played in the later arcs probably wasn't the role he was intended to have.

Roshi was never said to be the strongest. He won a tournament, but he says very early on that there's always someone stronger. And it doesn't matter if the role he played later wasn't what was intended, the change still works in the story. Like it doesn't matter what the reasons are behind the scenes for a change, it's the job of the storyteller to make it work. For instance, in Deadpool, there was originally supposed to be a huge gun battle in the final act of the movie, but because the budget didn't allow for that scene, the writers just had Wade forget it in the cab. It works because Wade is the type of character who could forget his ammo bag. Given Roshi's age, it's very appropriate that he would be surpassed and become more of a mentor than an active fighter and obstacle to overcome. I would say Roshi wasn't surpassed until Goku trained with Karin which was about 30 episodes later. To me, that's a lot.

I think you're being slightly disingenuous by using the anime as a measuring stick for how much time something takes, considering the manga, which is the original source, is much faster paced. "Z" already starts at chapter 195.

195 chapters is still a long time, especially if you are one of those weekly readers. ANd I don't see how the medium is necessarily relevant as not everyone who saw DB also read the manga. Plenty just watched the anime.