Has Modern Dragon Ball made the Dragon Ball World too small?

[ABED]

We got the explanation - the cataclysm destroyed their civilization. I don't even see how this is world building, good or bad. I think you are arguing a lack of coherent narrative.

The cataclysm explained why they were such few Namekians left, that's all the story gave us. I'm arguing a lack of coherent world building. You don't go to North Korea and find flying cars among the farmers.

The child who became Kami left BEFORE the cataclysm. The obvious inference is that they weren't a mere agrarian society before the cataclysm and losing almost everyone and everything put them back technologically by generations.

[Doctor.]

We got the explanation - the cataclysm destroyed their civilization. I don't even see how this is world building, good or bad. I think you are arguing a lack of coherent narrative.

The cataclysm explained why they were such few Namekians left, that's all the story gave us. I'm arguing a lack of coherent world building. You don't go to North Korea and find flying cars among the farmers.

The child who became Kami left BEFORE the cataclysm.

Yes, but these, as well as the flying platform inside the house, aren't. Granted, this is a very minor thing, I'm not saying it's not; I don't think Toriyama's world building, as bad as it is, is a big issue, either.

[Michsi]

I don't think the DB world is small, but rather it feels empty.

The greatest example of how world building isn't DB's forte will always be Namek. The explanation back then was that it was recovering from a planet wide disaster that had wiped out almost it's entire population, but I think it's fair to assume that was more of an excuse to keep Namek's layout so minimalistic rather than trying to add to the lore.

The the world of the U7 Kais seems to have only three inhabitants, U7 has only 28 planets, the space patrol has less members than an average sized department store. When I first found out about the multiple universes I was happy, then the 28 planet thing got revealed and I got significantly less happy.

[ABED]

The cataclysm explained why they were such few Namekians left, that's all the story gave us. I'm arguing a lack of coherent world building. You don't go to North Korea and find flying cars among the farmers.

The child who became Kami left BEFORE the cataclysm.

Yes, but these, as well as the flying platform inside the house, aren't. Granted, this is a very minor thing, I'm not saying it's not; I don't think Toriyama's world building, as bad as it is, is a big issue, either.

Clearly not everything was destroyed. That's not a contradiction.

rather than trying to add to the lore.

The lore isn't the issue. Why do you all seem to care so much about adding to the lore outside of what the narrative requires. I get the need for some sense of history so it doesn't feel artificial, but lore for its own sake is empty exposition.

[Hellspawn28]

Not really since one Universe is a huge place. If there is no more room left in Universe 7, there is always Universe 1, 5, 8 and 12 too. Not to mention if Universe 6 or 11 is still around. We can visit those Universes too and find out about new powerful enemies as well. There are forces out there that we still don't know about yet. There could be someone in Universe 6 that is stronger than Champa that we don't know about yet.

[ABED]

While the universes are big places which means there could easily be stronger guys to fight, multiple universes doesn't really lead to much that couldn't be accomplished by just exploring the current universe. It would be same song, different verse.

[Doctor.]

While the universes are big places which means there could easily be stronger guys to fight, multiple universes doesn't really lead to much that couldn't be accomplished by just exploring the current universe. It would be same song, different verse.

The problem is that they've already established a ceiling for both U7 and the other universes (which Goku has surpassed, or is close to) in the form of the Tournament of Power contestants and the Gods of Destruction.

[ABED]

While the universes are big places which means there could easily be stronger guys to fight, multiple universes doesn't really lead to much that couldn't be accomplished by just exploring the current universe. It would be same song, different verse.

The problem is that they've already established a ceiling for both U7 and the other universes (which Goku has surpassed, or is close to) in the form of the Tournament of Power contestants and the Gods of Destruction.

What's wrong with the ceiling?

[Doctor.]

While the universes are big places which means there could easily be stronger guys to fight, multiple universes doesn't really lead to much that couldn't be accomplished by just exploring the current universe. It would be same song, different verse.

The problem is that they've already established a ceiling for both U7 and the other universes (which Goku has surpassed, or is close to) in the form of the Tournament of Power contestants and the Gods of Destruction.

What's wrong with the ceiling?

Too soon to establish a ceiling and reach it right after you've just expanded your world. Also kinda goes against the whole "there's always someone stronger" leitmotiv.

[ABED]

The problem is that they've already established a ceiling for both U7 and the other universes (which Goku has surpassed, or is close to) in the form of the Tournament of Power contestants and the Gods of Destruction.

What's wrong with the ceiling?

Too soon to establish a ceiling and reach it right after you've just expanded your world. Also kinda goes against the whole "there's always someone stronger" leitmotiv.

But there's the whole "same song different verse" issue. If what those other universes offer is simply more strong enemies, then it's not really offering much new. Those opponents might as well have all come from the same universe or even galaxy. Hell, the additional hierarchy offers little in the way of new. At least with the god of destruction, it was something unique. It makes sense that if there are gods that create and protect, there would be the opposite. Beerus wasn't evil as much as a force of nature. That's unique.

[Doctor.]

If what those other universes offer is simply more strong enemies, then it's not really offering much new.

I think it's a lost opportunity, too, that they don't offer anything new beyond different races and fighters. The U9 fighters couldn't be sensed, so I hoped they'd have a different, unique energy source or something, but it just turned out to be Ki anyway. I was hoping the other universes would have different physics or something, but the planets we saw are all basically Earth with different colored people.

Those opponents might as well have all come from the same universe or even galaxy. Hell, the additional hierarchy offers little in the way of new.

Aren't you agreeing that Toriyama's world building is terrible?

[ABED]

If what those other universes offer is simply more strong enemies, then it's not really offering much new.

I think it's a lost opportunity, too, that they don't offer anything new beyond different races and fighters. The U9 fighters couldn't be sensed, so I hoped they'd have a different, unique energy source or something, but it just turned out to be Ki anyway. I was hoping the other universes would have different physics or something, but the planets we saw are all basically Earth with different colored people.

Those opponents might as well have all come from the same universe or even galaxy. Hell, the additional hierarchy offers little in the way of new.

Aren't you agreeing that Toriyama's world building is terrible?

I never said it wasn't bad, but I also think that's due to how much ground his story actually covered. It's a good argument for not continuing the story.

I like the show Burn Notice. In the series, Michael Westen is an American spy that gets fired/burned because a private group of burned spies set framed him. Throughout the seasons he makes his way through the hierarchy to bring it down. Burn Notice had the good sense to not constantly say here's the guy behind the guy behind the guy behind the guy, etc. It knew when to end that story and to take it in another direction. DB's hierarchy is shallow. New universes doesn't offer that much more. In fact, giving it all a hierarchy goes against the idea of there always being someone stronger.

Even your idea about the different universes having different physics or energy sources feels like superficial distinctions.

[Doctor.]

Even your idea about the different universes having different physics or energy sources feels like superficial distinctions.

I agree, but that's the best I could find on a surface level to do with the multiverse concept. You could easily apply those concepts I mentioned, different physics and energy sources, to different planets within U7 (or even different places on Earth itself). But the problem is that Toriyama rushed through both Earth and the universe so fast by establishing a ceiling (first with Daimao/Raditz and then with Freeza) and surpassing it within that arc, making it impossible to flesh out his world and make it seem large.

[Michsi]

The lore isn't the issue. Why do you all seem to care so much about adding to the lore outside of what the narrative requires. I get the need for some sense of history so it doesn't feel artificial, but lore for its own sake is empty exposition.

I meant that the disaster was a cop-out to get out of having to create a larger new world, and not a piece of information meant to give the namekian society a history.

I've been in numerous discussions and forums dedicated to writing and story development, and world building has always been among the top rated elements in terms of importance, especially when it comes to fantasy and SF. People just like it. It gives the story more weight, makes the whole experience feel richer.

[ABED]

But he didn't. DB is a LONG story. DB alone is 153 episodes. DB is very fleshed out and very large.

I've been in numerous discussions and forums dedicated to writing and story development, and world building has always been among the top rated elements in terms of importance, especially when it comes to fantasy and SF. People just like it. It gives the story more weight, makes the whole experience feel richer.

What others feel isn't relevant. What do YOU feel? I get that history and things like that CAN make things feel richer, but it often can go the opposite way. LOTR is massive and that world building in the body of the novels often slows the story down to its detriment. I don't care about the convoluted history of Sauron. I care that he's a malevolent powerful force attempting to conquer the world. Who his master was doesn't improve the story.

[Doctor.]

But he didn't. DB is a LONG story. DB alone is 153 episodes. DB is very fleshed out and very large.

The story and characters? Certainly. The world? Not so much. It doesn't matter because the world isn't directly tied with the characters' objectives or occupations, but it doesn't mean the world feels large.

[TheMikado]

Ok just to review. The issue I’m specifically talking about can be described as a ceiling.

The claim that there are worlds out there with “stronger” beings seems completely lost because of the context which the Whis talked about there being A universe where A mortal is stronger than a God of Destruction.

This implies that Gods of Destruction are the strongest beings of their worlds and that there is only one universe where A mortal has surpassed A GoD. Furthet implying Jiren is the stronger mortal of the multiverse. Should Goku be able to surpass him it would also mean that threats coming after would need to surpass a GoD but also be where Zeno is in a position where he cannot rectify it.

They argument being presented is not the world is physically small. The universe has been expanded but simultaneously contracted as well. I’m terms of what’s possible and that’s important for some people where others it is not.

That being said I have always felt Toriyama has done an excellent job of never closing off all possibilities and expanding them. The particular reason this time feels different is have he has announced a definitive ceiling. Both in TIME, SPACE, and POWER. Things which he has never had a hard definitive ceiling on when he was expanding. They point being WHY? Why would he impose these limits on himself in such a manner?

Particularly when he never defined he number of planets or number of timelines or the number of universes or the number of Gods or the definitive God before. When I say it has become small it’s because we have gotten to and see the near full extent of what is out there, or at the very least the best and most interesting the Dragonballs universe has to offer. So why place these artificial limits. What is the purpose and what does it bring? Lore as I said is always appreciated by why is the new lore continuing a theme on placing limits where there were none before?

[ekrolo2]

I think it's exacerbated the problem of the Freeza arc, even without Super, after Namek it feels like we just plowed through all the relevant people/stuff on a desolate wasteland planet and the rest of the universe has nothing to offer. Super's gone a step beyond and pretty much said "Yeah, U7 is a barely inhabited wasteland universe with nothing interesting besides Earth".

[TheMikado]

But he didn't. DB is a LONG story. DB alone is 153 episodes. DB is very fleshed out and very large.

I've been in numerous discussions and forums dedicated to writing and story development, and world building has always been among the top rated elements in terms of importance, especially when it comes to fantasy and SF. People just like it. It gives the story more weight, makes the whole experience feel richer.

What others feel isn't relevant. What do YOU feel? I get that history and things like that CAN make things feel richer, but it often can go the opposite way. LOTR is massive and that world building in the body of the novels often slows the story down to its detriment. I don't care about the convoluted history of Sauron. I care that he's a malevolent powerful force attempting to conquer the world. Who his master was doesn't improve the story.

I really have no idea why your feel your opinion is the definitive authority on whether people should like lore in general. Some do and some don’t. I’m not arguing that you should like lore over story but you seem intent on arguing that story is greater than lore for everyone and it’s not. It’s proven fact that it isn’t because plenty of things exist as just lore alone without cohesive story.

[Michsi]

But he didn't. DB is a LONG story. DB alone is 153 episodes. DB is very fleshed out and very large.

I've been in numerous discussions and forums dedicated to writing and story development, and world building has always been among the top rated elements in terms of importance, especially when it comes to fantasy and SF. People just like it. It gives the story more weight, makes the whole experience feel richer.

What others feel isn't relevant. What do YOU feel? I get that history and things like that CAN make things feel richer, but it often can go the opposite way. LOTR is massive and that world building in the body of the novels often slows the story down to its detriment. I don't care about the convoluted history of Sauron. I care that he's a malevolent powerful force attempting to conquer the world. Who his master was doesn't improve the story.

Actually it does, or it CAN, because as I said, it gives the story and characters more weight and makes them more interesting.

I brought up others because you literally wondered why "we all care so much about lore" and I just pointed out that that's nothing unusual. Most apparently do.

DB didn't need world-building as it's strong points lie somewhere else, but that doesn't change in this particular area it's somewhat lacking.

Also, if I understood correctly, you don't follow Super, and most of the fandoms current grievance regarding this issue stems from there.