Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

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Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:54 pm

In honour of the 20 year anniversary of GT ending (November 19th 1997), I decided to rewatch the whole show. Here are some scattered opinions I had on the show while I binged on it (again):

- I found some episodes in the Black Star Dragon Ball arc really did capture the whimsical and innocent charm of Dragon Ball very well. Special mention has to be made to Episodes 3, 5 and 15 in particular.

- Ledgic is really an interesting villain and I wish they did more with him

- Episodes like 6, 8, 7, 9, 10 and 12 drag the whole arc down a few notches and make it bit of an effort to get through the arc. Episode 10 and 12 in particular are just terrible and the nadir of everything wrong with how Toei tries to manufacture the charm of Toriyama's writing style for Dragon Ball. The Para Para Brothers bring nothing to the table and are just intolerable every second they are on screen. And Doltakki is fucking creepy. And not in the entertaining way. His episode is just straight up uncomfortable to watch. It's like Episode 89 of Dragon Ball Super cranked up to 11.

- Akihito Tokunaga's score for the show is great.

- Pan is actually a decent character.

- I think Black Star Dragon Ball arc is where Dragon Ball GT's distinctive art-style truly shines the greatest. The colour palette stands out so much from one planet to the next and everything about the backgrounds just feels so vibrant. It just feel so un-Dragon Ball, but it worked so well.

- Planet M2 was where the show really picks up in terms of consistency. There were some nice plot twists, cliffhangers and the battles got much better. But the villains design weren't really up to scratch.

- Pan and Goku have actually got some good chemistry.

- Baby makes one hell of an impression and is a surprisingly layered villain. The expansion on the lore between the Tuffles and Saiyans feels natural and very entwined

- I really like Goku's characterisation in the show. He's incredibly mature, calm, composed and has a strong sense of responsibility. And he only lets out his more goofy attitude at the right time. I really like GT Goku.

- Trunks feels like a bit of a flat character. There's just nothing going for that guy.

- You know what, I take back my complaint that SSJ4 jumped the shark. SSJ4 is the best thing GT produces and one the highlights of the entire franchise. Speaking from an aesthetic standpoint, at the very least, it's an amazing form. The homage to the long forgotten Oozaru form, while also tying it into the lore of the Original Super Saiyan and managing to combine the characteristic of controlling your rage, much like the first Super Saiyan form... fantastic. Not to mention Nozawa kills it during the transformation scene. One of her best performances.

- Baby's physical evolution was wonderful to watch.

- Have I mentioned that Akihito Tokunaga's score for the show is great? Because it's fucking great.

- Episode 35 isn't just the high point of GT visually, it's one of the high points of the franchise visually. Just stunning animation and art from start to finish. SSJ4 wasn't presented any better in the entire show than in this episode. This episode is really taken for granted. Great stuff.

- I loved the scene with Majin Boo saying goodbye to Mr Satan before he fuses with Oob because it felt so complete and a great way to send of a character while also progressing another. One of Dragon Ball's more heartwarming moments.

- Oob should have been given more to do, especially since he's chosen as Goku's pupil. But with the (very) small role he was given in the show, he proved his worth in battle and was important in the defeat of (Oozaru Vegeta) Baby.

- That Kamehameha into the sun was pretty damn cool.

- Piccolo's sacrifice was very sad. I think there could have been a more fitting way to write out the character, but this was still very much serviceable.

- Satisfying ending to a really good arc. Thumbs up for the Baby/Tuffle arc.

- The beginning of Super 17 arc was contrived as hell (*insert rimshot*)

- Episode 43 is ugly as fuck. Yikes. That episode has not aged well.

- Goku going to Hell was boring as fuck. Fighting Cell and Freeza (again) was dull and uninteresting. Not to mention, the amount of forced tension was off the fucking charts. You couldn't believe for a millisecond that Goku was in any danger. Without a doubt the worst both Cell and Freeza have been treated as characters in the entire franchise.

- Have I mentioned that Akihito Tokunaga's score for the show is great? Because it's fucking great.

- Super Android 17 as a concept is interesting, but the show never really does much with it other than just making Android 17 evil for the sake of it. Give a prescriptive of the kind of life that Android 17 is living to make his sudden (and very contrived) fall from grace all more tragic. Did he have his own family like Android 18? Did he have a well paying and/or satisfying job? Give us something.

- Episode 45 epitomizes every stereotypical negative connotation of GT: The main villain arrives and wipes the deck with everyone and then Goku arrives to make everyone else look like shit by performing better in battle by leaps and bound, and by only using a fraction of his full strength. But this was the only time in GT where the fan made term "Goku Time" is truly deserved.

- Episode 46 is a shockingly good episode in an otherwise disposable and boring arc.

- Anti-climatic ending of the arc. Android 18 confronting Super Android 17 was nice to see but felt a massive wasted opportunity. It could have been a great avenue to explore Android 17 and 18's backstory. Instead she just shouts, remonstrates him for killing Krillin and blasts him with an endless barrage of Ki blasts. And just when the battle between SSJ4 Goku and Super Android 17 was getting interesting, too. Oh well.

- Man, Super Android 17 felt like such a nothing arc. Just absolutely bereft of real content. Thumbs down for that arc. It's still bad.

- The Shadow Dragons look awesome. Good debut episode for them.

- I adore the concept of the Shadow Dragons. The idea that the very plot device the cast has used and somewhat took for granted coming back to bit them in the ass is just perfect.

- After the really good first episode, this arc hits a very rough patch. Episodes 49, 50 and 53 in particular are boring, bad and rank among the worst episodes in the show. Episode 53 deserve special mention for how terrible that episode is visually and in terms of content. I think it's low point of GT and one of the worst episodes of the anime franchise. Yeah... it's that bad. Just a total slog to get through. Mainly because Pan becomes intolerable. And Episode 50 has some of the worst animation in the franchise. Man, some of these episodes of GT have not aged well.

- Man, this arc is already feeling like it's dragging and we're not even ten episodes in. It reminds me a lot of the Super Android 17 arc where it feels like nothing is really happening. The Shadow Dragons so far haven't gone any kind of personality between them. They all so far seem to carry such a villain-of-the-week vibe. Bleh.

- Are they really going to do nothing more with the Shadow Dragons than just makes them fodder for Goku and/or Pan?

- Episode 55 breaks the lame duck of episodes ranging from mediocre to bad. Too bad it's basically a clip show of the better days of Z.

- Have I mentioned that Akihito Tokunaga's score for the show is great? Because it's fucking great.

- Nuova Shenron's arrives and drags this arc into something worth a damn. And look at that... he has a character! Hallelujah! Now we're getting somewhere with these damn dragons.

-Nuova Shenron's subtle character development was very nice. Reminded me a lot Piccolo during the Saiyan arc. I mean, he even teamed up with Goku to fight a larger threat! Nice throwback (if intentional).

- So Vegeta's got SSJ4 now? Cool. And we get another reminder of how immensely intelligent and useful Bulma is. Double cool.

- SSJ4 Gogeta shenanigans remain one of the high points of GT. Him fooling around with Omega Shenron never gets old.

- And it's back to shit with Episode 62. Terrible episode. Bad animation, boring plot... it's literally skippable.

- Episode 63 is a completely shameless retread of the finale of the Majin Boo arc... but Holy God... it fucking works. Best. Genki. Dama. Ever. One of GT's best episodes. And have I mentioned that Akihito Tokunaga's score for the show is great? Because it's fucking great.

- Man, this ending. This ending. It's so anti-Toriyama, but you know what, I can't imagine the ending being as effective as it was if they didn't go that route. This episode carries such a melancholic and conclusive tone that has yet to be matched by any other Dragon Ball anime, whether it be the TV shows, movies, specials or OVA's. This is not just the best episode of GT's entire run, it's a major franchise highlight. Just perfect.

Final Thought(s):

Time has been good and bad to Dragon Ball GT. But it's been mostly good.

The Black Star Dragon Ball arc was quite hit and miss and is still a bit of slog to get through, but I really enjoyed the angle the show was going for with this. They were trying to expand the Dragon Ball universe, while bring back a sense of adventure. It didn't always work, but major points for the intention and effort.

The Baby arc was quite a very good arc. Baby is a good villain (in both design and personality), everything about SSJ4 is AWESOME, Oob did something of importance, Piccolo sacrifice was a great moment for him and Majin Boo's parting was very nice and a good conclusion of his character arc. No major complaints. Really good stuff from this arc from start to finish.

The Super Android 17 arc is still bad because of how much they wasted the return of Android 17 and how convoluted the plot progressed. Not to mention how empty the arc felt in terms of actual content. I don't mind the concept of Super 17 because it was intriguing but it just never amounted to anything. The design of Super 17 was at least decent.

The Shadow Dragons arc get off to a great start. But then tumbles into mediocrity, and standards even worse, for several episodes. Then Nouva Shenron arrives and the arc takes a major upswing in quality (excluding Episode 62). The Shadow Dragons were an ideal candidate final villain for this kind, or really any kind, of Dragon Ball story. It just feels so cumulative that the story began with the Dragon Balls and ends with them being a threat to the universe. And it helps that Old Kai remonstrated the main cast for how they "abuse" the Dragon Balls in the Majin Boo arc, so in reality, the Shadow Dragons were bound happen at one point or another in Dragon Ball and it wouldn't have felt out of place at all because it was foreshadowed.

I think more than anything, Dragon Ball GT, especially with its conclusion, gave me closure. Something I didn't really have with the original ending of the manga. Goku visiting Krillin and Roshi one last time at Kame House, Vegeta telling Pan to hold onto the tattered remains of Goku's fighting gi, Goku visiting Piccolo in Hell and then Goku leaving with Shenron... it feels cumulative. It's the sort of stuff Toriyama would never write and I greatly appreciate that GT went that route and wanted to give Dragon Ball a proper ending. They didn't want to leave the book open. They wanted this to be the Dragon Ball's final chapter. It may have been a dumb move to make from a business perspective, but from a narrative perspective, it couldn't have been handled any better. The characters had grown old and moved on and GT wanted Dragon Ball to close out at a point where they felt there could tell no more adventures like we had been treated to in the past.

Aging the cast, apart from Goku, was a decision I feel as though in the long run was pointless and unnecessary. Goku could, and should, have stayed an adult. And it really goes against Toriyama's adamant stance in the past of making Goku grow up, during a time when it was unconventional to do so when he was writing and drawing Dragon Ball. I mean, that was a decision that Toriyama was willing quit Dragon Ball over. It just felt like a major step backwards narratively. That's being said, Goku's characterisation in the show is very well done. It's wonderfully natural evolution of Goku's characterization in Z. He's mature, level headed, calm, reserved and responsible.

Needless to say, my perspective has become a lot more positive since the last time I binged on the show. Honestly, Dragon Ball GT is a good show. There are some missteps but that's mainly from the risks the show takes to bring more out of Dragon Ball's narrative from moving the story forward. Dragon Ball GT wanted to be distinct and have it's own identity, and I commend the show immensely for that. It faltered in some areas when it came to executing the concepts it wanted to, but the vibrant art style and occasionally great animation certainly made the show stand out among other entries in the Dragon Ball anime franchise. And have I mentioned that Akihito Tokunaga's score for the show is great? Because it's fucking great.

As far as the Dragon Ball TV animes go, it still ranks at the bottom at the list. But that doesn't matter at this stage, because I find the show to be overall actually very decent and, above all else, an extremely satisfying conclusion to Dragon Ball's larger scale story.

For comparison's sake:

Dragon Ball - 9.5/10
Dragon Ball Z - 9/10
Dragon Ball Super - 8/10 (As of Episode 116)
Dragon Ball GT - 7/10

I wouldn't call Dragon Ball GT a grand tour, but it was certainly a good one. :)

Note: I made the conscious decision to not watch the English dub, and don't plan to. I wanted to view GT with how it was originally intended from a writing and performance perspective. Plus, I didn't want to have to watch the same episode twice.

Note (2): I strongly considered doing the GT TV special (ya know, the one with Chibi Goku 4.0) as a bonus, but decided against it at the last minute. Maybe I'll tackle that in the future...

Note (3): And have I mentioned that Akihito Tokunaga's score for the show is great? Because it's fucking great.

Note (4): Sorry for not using the Japanese names for some characters. I got tired and shit happened.

Special Note: I really didn't expect such a response to this thread. Hell, I wasn't really expecting any kind of response. So thank you again to all who commented and gave me feedback. You guys are awesome. :thumbup:

Special Note (2): I will be doing the same thing for Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball in the future, so keep an eye out.

Special Note (3): Change of plans... Dragon Ball is next on my list. Z will come after that.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:33 pm, edited 15 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

Post by KBABZ » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:15 pm

Huh, I'm not that familiar with GT, but I never knew that Super 17 killed Krillin!

You know, ever since I finished my first pass on The First Chapters, I've been pondering as to what an edit like that would be like in regards to GT. That probably sounds redundant, like "isn't GT all filler?", but what I mean is that a Kai-fication of GT would remove or shorten the redundant episodes and remove the more negative aspects like, for example, Pan being grating. I remember I watched some of GT online and it was early in the Black Star arc where they're on the planet with a class-balance problem, and it goes on for three episodes and I'm like "Oh my god, who the hell cares?!". That'd be an area I'd definitely shorten.

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Re: Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

Post by sintzu » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:26 am

Great read. I definitely plan on rewatching it once I'm done with Kai but I do plan on skipping episodes 6-15 as I really didn't like them when I tried to rewatch it last time.
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Re: Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

Post by Vijay » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:16 am

TOEI should Kai'fy GT. The series would benefit greatly from it

I agree with most of ya points. I firmly believe GT's approach to capturing DB's innocence was admirable. Even mixin Z's action was great albeit slow.

But TOEI should've handed the whole show to Tadayoshi Yamamuro & Shimanuki Mashashiro cuz those 2 are the last 2 guys that can capture the spirit & soul of DragonBall

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Re: Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

Post by KBABZ » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:26 am

Vijay wrote:TOEI should Kai'fy GT. The series would benefit greatly from it
I plan to do that! ...one of these days.

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Re: Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

Post by MaskedRider » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:45 am

KBABZ wrote:
Vijay wrote:TOEI should Kai'fy GT. The series would benefit greatly from it
I plan to do that! ...one of these days.
Funimation already got us started before the "lost episodes" :)

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Re: Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

Post by sintzu » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:09 am

KBABZ wrote:
Vijay wrote:TOEI should Kai'fy GT. The series would benefit greatly from it
I plan to do that! ...one of these days.
What's there apart from episodes 6-15 and 41 that can be cut out ?
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Re: Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

Post by KBABZ » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:35 am

MaskedRider wrote:Funimation already got us started before the "lost episodes" :)
Heh, quite true, but I don't consider absolutely all the Lost Episodes to be insta-cut material, as preferably you would want to show the trio getting each and every Dragon Ball as in the Pilaf and Red Ribbon arcs, since those are significant events.
sintzu wrote:
KBABZ wrote:
Vijay wrote:TOEI should Kai'fy GT. The series would benefit greatly from it
I plan to do that! ...one of these days.
What's there apart from episodes 6-15 and 41 that can be cut out ?
Having done a first pass on Kai-ing the original Dragon Ball, there's a lot of room to cut out small lines or more fluff-type scenes and still keep the story in tact. A common tactic with the anime was to take a Chapter of the manga, which would normally cover half an episode, and stretch it to a full episode, or even two. This leaves a lot of room for content that can be removed whilst still being accurate to the manga.

GT of course would be an interesting prospect since it isn't based on a manga at all. Unless an episode literally did not advance the story in any way, though, I probably wouldn't cut it. A Kai-fication of GT would for me be combining the weaker episodes together so that the story moves along at a quicker pace. For example, the lesser Shadow Dragon episodes would likely be combined together so that they only take up 24 minutes or so of your time rather than 48, and the Imegga mini-arc would likely be cut down to two episodes rather than the full three. Going over the episode synopsis', I also agree that episodes 6-15 is very egregious in length. Episode 7-14 could probably be combined into three, maybe even two episodes if the continuity works out (primarily the outfits, which tend to get damaged during the fighting).

While GT being a wholly original series means that the use of the word Kai would appear dubious, I would have a lot more creative freedom since I no longer have my rule of "include every shot that appeared in the manga", making it much easier to outright delete scenes that either aren't important or add to the runtime. I would work with the Funi 5.1 dub however, as working with the mono Japanese track would limit the amount of edits I could cleanly make. I should also make the disclaimer that I currently do not own or otherwise have access to GT, nor do I have much familiarity with it, so it would definitely be something I'd figure out as I went. Thus, threads like this one where you guys talk about what worked with GT is very important for me to understand what fans love about the show and I shouldn't remove or ruin.

Oh and of course the title would be Dragon Ball GT Kai: The Lost Chapters in reference to their dubious modern continuity.

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Re: Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:57 am

While there are pacing issues, you can't just Kai'ify it.
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Re: Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

Post by KBABZ » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:15 am

ABED wrote:While there are pacing issues, you can't just Kai'ify it.
It wouldn't solve every issue for sure, but I think having a brisker pace and a lower episode count would go a long way to making the series more watchable overall, especially the first arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:23 am

KBABZ wrote:
ABED wrote:While there are pacing issues, you can't just Kai'ify it.
It wouldn't solve every issue for sure, but I think having a brisker pace and a lower episode count would go a long way to making the series more watchable overall, especially the first arc.
The series doesn't have a big pacing issue. Sometimes, sure, but it requires a rewrite, not a mere cutting of footage.
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Re: Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

Post by Xeogran » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:45 am

I actually liked Goku being a kid in GT. He felt different enough from DB's Goku but still had the same quirks that made him likable.

I also feel like that was one of the most creative ways to develop Pan's character: At first she desperately wanted to grow up, but thanks to seeing how her grandpa enjoys being a kid, Pan eventually accepted herself and realized that being childish can actually be fun.

Pan was also a quite lonely girl at first, so thanks to Goku now being her age, she got her first friend.

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Re: Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

Post by TheZFighter » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:27 am

That was a great read, thanks! I can relate to your assessment.
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Re: Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:54 pm

Thank you for all the comments, folks. It's greatly appreciated :)

Dragon Ball Z is next on my list...

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Re: Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

Post by DSB » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:05 pm

GT just being 1 point lower than Super is an insult to both Super and Z.

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Re: Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

Post by SsjRavi » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:30 pm

That was a fun read, thanks!

It is always nice to see a fair and balanced assessment of GT which I don't think deserves the hate it gets.

Also you forgot to mention Akihito Tokunaga's score for the show is great!
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Re: Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:56 pm

DSB wrote:GT just being 1 point lower than Super is an insult to both Super and Z.
Dragon Ball GT is a much better show than people give it credit for. Hell, I used to be one of GT biggest detractors, but I took the time to watch the show again from start to finish and it's much better than I remembered.
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Re: Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

Post by DSB » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:07 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
DSB wrote:GT just being 1 point lower than Super is an insult to both Super and Z.
Dragon Ball GT is much better show than people give it credit for. Hell, I used to be one GT biggest detractors but I took the time to watch the show again from start to finish and it's much better than I remembered.
Well since you are a Big shot here we should just believe you...

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Re: Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

Post by sangofe » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:08 pm

DSB wrote:GT just being 1 point lower than Super is an insult to both Super and Z.
Why do you say so?

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Re: Dragon Ball GT: A Personal Assessment (20 Year Anniversary)

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:21 pm

DSB wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
DSB wrote:GT just being 1 point lower than Super is an insult to both Super and Z.
Dragon Ball GT is a much better show than people give it credit for. Hell, I used to be one of GT biggest detractors, but I took the time to watch the show again from start to finish and it's much better than I remembered..
Well since you are a Big shot here we should just believe you...
Umm... what? I'm just expressing my opinion. I don't hold any sort of power or influence in this thread or fourm.

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