Lord Beerus wrote:I know that character is really called Si Xing Long, but "Nuova Shenron" just sounds a lot cooler.
Eh, maybe. It just really bothers me that it completely ignores the whole point of the dragon names.
(In case you aren't aware, their names are chinese for "[NUMBER]-Star Dragon", so Yi Xing Long = 1-Star Dragon, Si Xing Long = Four-Star Dragon, etc.)
Plus, I find it really hard to remember who you're talking about unless it's Yi Xing Long/Syn Shenron or Si Xing Long/Nuova Shenron. I grew up on the Blue Water dub, which basically used the original names(They used the Japanese approximations instead of the Chinese original words, and used "Shenron" instead of "Xing Long" or "Shinron"; thus Si Xing Long becomes Su Shenron, Liu Xing Long becomes Ryu Shenron, etc.
Though this slightly confuses things with Yi Xing Long, where they used a double-"I" to write his name as Ii Shenron, which a lot of people misread as "Li Shenron"...), and nowadays for me I either watch Dragon Ball in Japanese, or in its Ocean/Blue Water dubbed forms, so I can never remember the Funimation dragon names.
Lord Beerus wrote:And yes... the music is awesome.
I don't think awesome even begins to cover it.
It annoys me to no end that Toei didn't bring him back for Kai and Super. Would have totally avoided the problem of Yamamoto's plagiarism, and Sumitomo's mediocrity.
Lord Beerus wrote:I'd like to apologize in advance for not using the original Japanese names of certain characters. I recognise it's a copout to use the americanized version of the naming of the Evil Dragons.
[...]
Sorry to hear that dude. Honestly, the dub vs sub name thing is just a nitpick, so no worries, man.
Hell, I myself still have a few dub-isms stuck in my head. I don't think I'll ever pronounce Goku or Saiyan right.
sintzu wrote:Guess what, Super isn't that good and GT isn't that bad. Simple facts.
I should put that in my sig.
sintzu wrote:How do you even remember those names ?
As I say, I grew up on the Blue Water/Ocean dubs, and nowadays I either watch that or the subs(Usually subs, especially recently), so those are the names I'm used to. Took me a while to remember the order, and the correct spellings,
but Kanzenshuu was very helpful with that.
If you don't like subs, seek out the Blue Water dub sometime; the scripts are a lot more accurate than Funimation's, and the different voices should be very interesting to hear.
Plus, how can you say no to
this theme song. Good luck getting that out of your head this century.
DSB wrote:i did watch it. And all i could manage was to see the series one time. You cant even refute any of the points
With the Funi dub, probably with the replacement score, I presume?
Also, I do agree that your points should be fairly refuted, so... Down the rabbit hole we go...
[spoiler]
DSB wrote:Just the mere fact that Funi decided to remove the first dozen or so episodes and start off with a special recap one makes it extremely clear that even Funimation knew but bad those first episodes sucked. People shit on Super having a bad start should consider that GT had an absolute garbage of a start.
They cut the beginning because it had a bad reputation among the fansub community, and it wasn't edgy enough for their vision of GT. If Funimation had any sense of quality, they wouldn't have put the awful rap song and Mark Menza score over GT, which actively made the show worse, and as a result of those and the edgy overall approach to their GT dub, Funimation basically ruined everything that was good in GT, and made a pretty good show with a few shaky periods into an outright abomination.
DSB wrote:Then the Baby arc. So Vegeta suddenly decides to go full fledged family man and almost give up fighting? His Goku #1 acceptance means that he believes Goku is rightfully the best but that doesnt mean he should just shut down. Super has captured both Fighter AND family man vegeta far better.
That's not even slightly what happened. GT Vegeta has simply matured a bit, and more openly loves his family, so he spends more time with them, and genuinely tries to be a good father. That doesn't mean he's not still training, and in fact, episode 55 very clearly shows he's still training, and while he's resigned to the fact Goku is his better, he's still very much going to keep training and getting stronger until he finally either reaches his peak, or dies. If you watch the episode, he outright says all of this. It's possible Funimation threw out some of this, but if you're watching Funimation's dub... Actually, you probably did watch the Funi dub, didn't you? That would explain a lot. Almost justifies why you're so unreservedly hateful of this perfectly decent show.
DSB wrote:Next is Black Star Dragon ball concept. So ya Kami remembers most of the important things the Nameless Namekian did but he conveniently forgets the entire existence of BSDB? You cant say Piccolo doesnt know because he has Kami's memories and Knowledge.
This criticism makes no sense.
First off, he hadn't been the Nameless Namekian for like a couple of thousand years, and since the Black Dragon Balls wouldn't have been active since then, he wouldn't have thought about them in a long time, meaning they wouldn't be at the forefront of his mind during the span of time the series takes place in. When Piccolo and God merged in the Cell arc, they had a lot on their mind, and the kinda crappy prototype Dragon Balls from thousands of years ago that are safely deep within the temple which no one aside from the main protagonists has ever been up to(Aside from some villains who were either killed before they could get anywhere within the temple, or in Super Boo's case, Piccolo personally guided him through it as part of the whole plan to get Gotenks to kill Boo) would be the last thing on his mind, and as far as Piccolo is concerned, there's no way anyone would be able to find out about these really old balls,
and make it up there without anyone noticing, so if it did cross his mind, he would have dismissed it quickly. And, given the fact Piccolo decided to die with Earth, and requested not to be wished back so the balls wouldn't return, presumably destroying the Black Dragon Balls would be quite an ordeal, perhaps one that Piccolo wouldn't be able to undergo without dying.
And then of course, once the balls were used, it was too late for Piccolo to really do anything about it.
DSB wrote:Next is Pan and she is Ribrianne+Kefla in one package.
So you're saying Super ripped off something GT did? Cool, I'll add that to the list.
(But seriously, I don't understand this... Is this supposed to be a criticism?)
DSB wrote:Super 17. A HF 17 and Andorid 17 "fusion" makes a character stronger than Super Vegito? Right.
I would let you have that one; the Super #17 arc was pretty weak, and the logic was fuzzy at best, except, "Makes a character stronger than Super Vegito? Right."
... No. He's roughly on-level with Super Saiyan 4 Goku. We don't know how SS4 Goku compares to Super Vegetto. He could be stronger, he could be weaker. We may never know.
Perhaps this is a nitpick, and if this is just a simple mistake, I gladly concede this point.
DSB wrote:The Concept of Shadow Dragons is really awesome and the only thing that i want to carry over in Super but FOR GOD SAKE Almost all the Dragons are so damn bland. People saying Jiren is bland probably never saw Omega Shenron.
I'm gonna do these in no particular order.
So, we have Yi Xing Long -- A being so strong it takes a Goku and Vegeta fusion to fight him, anything less being a distraction at best. While all the dragons exist to cause general havoc, Yi Xing Long exists to put an end to Earth, and stamp out all resistance to the destruction the dragons bring. Not the most interesting character, but he exists in a meta perspective as a villain so powerful, the entire rest of the main cast can get together, and we can have a big damn finalé. He's not hugely interesting personality-wise, but he is still actually quite fun; he's a very straight to the point, almost business-like dragon, who just wants to get everything killed, and be done with it. Arguably that's not the most deep character of all time, but neither was/is Freeza(He's literally just a guy who is evil and really strong. Not saying that's a bad thing, quite the opposite).
San Xing Long and Si Xing Long -- So, the fire and ice brothers. One is an honourable warrior; unlike the previous dragons, this guy just appears, says hi, and asks Goku for a fair fight. Then San shows up, and you get to see Si being conflicted about his duties as a brother and an evil dragon, and his honour. These two are awesome.
Liang Xing Long -- Okay, yeah, this one isn't great. The concept of one of the dragons' main thing being ruining the ecology of the world around him is kinda cool, but yes, this one was poorly executed. You can have that one.
Wu Xing Long -- Again, not particularly great. IMO, this and Liang are the only bad ones.
Qi Xing Long -- This was a cool idea. A dragon who absorbs Pan, and then Goku can't bring himself to defeat him, as it will mean killing Pan; and since the Dragon Balls are the very things they're fighting, it's possible Pan wouldn't be able to be brought back! The actual two episodes themselves are not the best in the end, but the dragon himself is a pretty cool idea.
Liu Xing Long -- So, she's basically enslaved an entire town, and lives on vanity. She's pretty fun. Not the most interesting dragon there is, but she's a good one-episode dragon.
(And unless I'm forgetting someone, she's arguably Dragon Ball's first trans character.)
So, that's only two that are bad(Liang and Wu).
Out of the rest of them, one that isn't very interesting character-wise, but makes for a pretty cool villain, and serves his purpose as a big bad who's big and bad enough for the entire cast to get together to kill him, and really the only criticisms with him could easily also be levelled at Freeza or Kid Boo(Yi), one that's pretty cool, but his two episodes aren't particularly great(Qi), one that's pretty good(Liu), and two that are outright awesome(Si and San).
DSB wrote:SSj4 making Absurd gains all the time is really awful. And dont get me started on vegeta SSj4. I'm a HUGE Vegeta mark but that Blutz machine is the biggest asspull the entire franchise has ever seen and that includes Trunks' SSRage.
Super Saiyan 4 happens, and is really powerful, then Goku runs out of power, and the others help him get his power back so he can continue fighting. No change in power there.
The only other time that transformation has any kind of real "Absurd gain" is when Goku, Gohan, et al give all their power to Goku in the fight with Super Yi Xing Long, which isn't the transformation, it's just everyone giving Goku a ton of power to work with...
As for Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta, kind of the whole point of episode 55 is to say "Hey, Vegeta can go Super Saiyan 4 too. Here's how and why. Also, here's a quick recap of past events 'cause we haven't really done that in a while."
And the means through which they turn him into a Super Saiyan 4 were used in the Baby arc to turn him into a Golden Oozaru, so it's not an asspull; the ingredients were right there all along, and it was spelled out in episode 55 how it could be put together, then they did it when Vegeta showed up in the fight against Yi Xing Long.
DSB wrote:And i can go on but i dont wanna waste more time here. GT has NOTHING to show for.
Some of the best music in the franchise; beautiful animation which does have a couple of off episodes, but mostly stays consistently very nice; Super Saiyan 4 is still a very well-loved transformation that shows up in all the games even now that GT isn't in the mainstream continuity; even the people who have a hate-boner for GT love the ending; all the Japanese voices we love were back and doing some of their best work(Doesn't apply to the dubs, but Funimation's dub is awful, and it seems I'm the only one who cares about how great the Blue Water dub was)... I can go on, but I don't want to waste more time here.
DSB wrote:OG DB was pure Fun and Adventure and then started the high stakes storyline which continued to Z and took it to another level.
Not really. OG Dragon Ball started out pretty lighthearted and adventurous, but always had some serious and/or dark elements to it. The attitude taken was overall quite whimsical, but the stakes were pretty high overall; if they didn't stop Pilaf from getting the balls, he was going to take over the world. The tone moved pretty smoothly to the darker style people associate with Z quite slowly, and the shift continues all the way
into Z, with it all paying off at the end of the Cell arc. Only then does it relent, and we get the much lighter Boo arc, which kind of sets the stage for GT's approach to things.
DSB wrote:Super is not the best at any of those but is the best at Hype.
That's only because the show is airing right now. If the original three shows were airing right now, everyone would be super-hyped about what's going on with Freeza, and the cyborgs, and everyone would have lost their minds over Goku being the alien; that twist would probably have heavily divided the fandom.
DSB wrote:It is also fun and has had the 2 of the most daring arc in the Franchise history.
More daring than killing off Krillin(Remeber: At this point, no major character deaths had happened yet), massacring the martial arts community, the villain succeeding in gathering the Dragon Balls, then
killing Shen Long, and Roshi, and Chiaotzu,
and for the first time having Goku and the others be absolutely no match for the main villains?
More daring than revealing Goku had been an alien all along(For manga readers, that would have been 5 years in), and he has an evil brother who he has to team up with
goddamn Piccolo to kill, which results in his death, then his son has to train with Piccolo otherwise Vegeta and Nappa will kill everyone, which they kind of do anyway, which leads them to have to go to space where they encounter space hitler, who'd enslaved Vegeta, and then after Krillin gets killed, Goku undergoes some kind of strange transformation born out of rage after Vegeta dropped vague hints about similar such things, thus fulfilling a legend, and resulting in Vegeta now being kind of with the goodguys...
I realise that, at this point, it looks like I'm just disagreeing with you for the sake of disagreeing with you, but that's not what I'm trying to do here. You're allowed to dislike GT, you're allowed to like Super, but just crapping all over GT, and praising Super as some kind of second coming is just silly. Many prefer Super to GT, and that's fine, but opinions are just that -- opinions. Expressing opinions as facts is highly annoying, and prevalent cases of this can ruin fandoms.
DSB wrote:The most deep writing and villain ever and a Multiversal Tournament that is just the best thing going on since probably the Freeza Arc.
The first two arcs don't count because they're just the last two movies, but even if they did BoG was basically just a fun cool thing that showed Dragon Ball is still viable in the 21st century, and RF was a bit crap.
So, that leaves the U6 tournament which was basically just a retread of the oldschool tournament arcs, but with a more modern sensibility, the Black arc which was "Hey, let's bring Trunks back and have him fight evil Goku!" The execution was a little more sophisticated than that
at first, but then they completely skip over the training for the fight with Black, and travel through time a bunch of times, and shenanigans which make absolutely no sense at all result in the final fight in which Zamasu is the sky and everyone is dead, and then the universe too, and then there's another Omni-King,
and oh no I've gone crosseyed.
Then we have the current arc, which is very good, but it's a pretty basic plot. Best thing since Freeza? Hell no, but probably the best arc of Super.
DSB wrote:Not to mention nobody has actually defeated a threat in Super by Themselves. Since like end of Freeza arc and that is even more gflaring in Super. GT is just a Goku [and Pan] show.
On Imegga, they had to work together to avoid the authorities. Sure, the actual fight with Ledgic was Goku vs Ledgic, but that was just the fight at the very end. Much as I don't like the two episodes with the guy with the whiskers, they all had to work together to get to the bottom of that, and when the Dragon Ball was stolen, Trunks was flying the ship they used to chase the guys, which lead them to the cult, where ultimately Goku and Pan had to time that hit to take the win. Granted, that does still qualify as "Goku [and Pan]", but having just two major characters has never been a problem before; most of the original series was just one or two main characters, a lot of Z was too(Freeza arc: Gohan and Krillin were the main characters, although it shifted to Vegeta in the middle, then shifted to Goku in the end. Ultimately, Goku was the only one who stood a chance against Freeza in his final form, so criticising GT for Goku taking the win once or twice if the rest of the buildup to it involved the other characters is weak, especially if it isn't just Goku who takes the win).
After the cult stuff, we got M2, where Goku was incapacitated for a huge ton of it, Gill and Pan were the main characters for a little bit, and ultimately Trunks took the win by planning everything very neatly. There wasn't even really any fight for anyone to win, it was a battle of wits, meaning Goku was entirely unsuited to winning it anyway. Of course, there was General Rildo after that, but that's not the main big bad, he's the miniboss. The real fight was with Baby, which lasted about 5 seconds. Speaking of Baby...
So, Goku completely fails to do anything to Baby, and ends up having to learn Super Saiyan 4. In the meantime, everyone else has to deal with Baby; Oob, most notably. So, although Goku wins the fight in the end, he wasn't the only one who annihilated the threat, and ultimately he did need the power from others to recharge to full-strength to beat Baby(Again, like the Freeza arc -- it all builds up to Goku appearing and kicking the baddy's ass, but it's what builds up to that that matters). And even then, that's not how the arc ends!! The arc ends with the evacuation and then restoration of Earth.
Then we have Super #17, who's technically defeated by Goku, but really the final win goes to both Goku and #18.
Then with the Evil Dragons, Pan defeats Liang, Wu just kind of dies, Liu is defeated by both Goku
and Pan, Qi is defeated by Goku, San is defeated by Goku and Si, Si is defeated by Yi, Yi is defeated by the entire universe...
DSB wrote:So ya if I'm being generous I'm gonna give GT a 5/10 and thats only because how good the Concept of Shadow Dragons is. A Super Shenron Shadow Dragon will literally be bonkers in Super. I wish they take it.
You're entitled to your opinion, but don't get all high and mighty by saying you're being generous for calling one if its ideas pretty good. That'd be like giving Batman V Superman an above-average score simply because the idea of doing a film based on The Dark Knight Returns and The Death Of Superman was pretty interesting.
And no, Super redoing GT ideas would be utterly stupid.
First up, GT already told its stories, and while it had some spotty episodes, even its deniers are generally pretty positive about the Evil Dragons arc; it's a much better use of everyone's time to do new stories we haven't already seen before. Most of the appeal of Super right now is that people don't know what's going to happen, it's new serialised Dragon Ball for the first time since 1997, so we don't know what's going to happen next. If it didn't have hype behind it, and we already knew the broad strokes of the story it's doing, it would almost certainly be falling a lot more flat than it is.
And finally, are we so sure it would be better if they did it now? Toriyama wouldn't have a lot of interest in redoing stories that weren't his to begin with, so I doubt he'd really have much input on it, and even if he did, at most, he'd just revise the rough storyline as usual. This means it would be down to Toei, and right out the gate they have the disadvantage that the animation and music will be massively inferior to GT's... It'd be Plan To Eradicate The Saiyans all over again; people would still criticise the stories, but this time it would be a tired retread of something people were already pretty critical of.[/spoiler]
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.
("Su Shin Long", and to a lesser extent "Su Shinron" and "Su Shenron" would also be acceptable)
