Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

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Re: Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

Post by Kuwabara » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:09 pm

mikezilla2 wrote:whats the Z footage Look like ?
I imagine it's just the Dragon Box footage, but I'd like to see some screen caps regardless.
This is the episode of when Gokuh enrages himself after Freezer talk shit about Kuririn

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Re: Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

Post by clutchins » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:11 am

This is definitely not an HD scan. I agree with Hakkaibills in thinking that it's just a quick avisynth upscale. I even reported it as one when it was uploaded. That's probably why it got removed...
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Re: Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:21 am

mikezilla2 wrote:whats the Z footage Look like ?
If you read thé topic completely you should know that only db ep1 was release then deleted so this question is totally useless.....

If there is people allways thinking that it s not an upscale then there s no hope for them anymore....and it s only show that they are poor encoder

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Re: Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:03 am

mikezilla2 wrote:whats the Z footage Look like ?
if you wanted to see how looked this "upscale" for dbz here a test done with some quick color correction added to it

untouch dbox
Image
same upscale + color correction
Image
the same but without haloing
Image
straight upscale without filtering + color correction
Image

all is based from dbox footage they are nothing compared to the level sets

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Re: Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:59 am

I don't understand you... :crazy:
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

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Re: Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:38 am

Robo4900 wrote:I don't understand you... :crazy:
i show him how dbz should have look if the guy keep doing his upscale (as i show evidence that it is upscale before) (with color correction added to the upscale)
if i can do the same by filtering (what i show in previous post) then it is fake for sure

for db if he have done others it should have look like that (i have resize dbox for the comparison)
dbox
Image
upscale
Image
dbox
Image
upscale
Image
dbox
Image
upscale
Image
Last edited by HakkaiBills93 on Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

Post by KBABZ » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:42 am

I'm still skeptical that's the case, as what we saw lacked the image artefacting from your examples.

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Re: Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:14 am

artifact can be less visible by some complex avisynth script i wouldn't be able to do, there is great encoder
i have 3 evidence it's an upscale an i invite anyone to show me i am wrong about that
1 true HD footage can't be upscale with the same sharpness it will result haloing or line being thinner like you can see in my screen line are slightly thinner than the dbox one
2 if you see your own screen line are slightly thinner (watch the top of the moto for example) thinner line mean there is DNR or sharpen filter behind this
Image

if you watch my screen above
3 same frame count as the dbox episode 1 (with same frame count for the black part after nep)

i really think that this guy did the upscale with just slight settings for any filter he used that's all
it's really hopeless, people want so bad that it is true that they can be tricked so easilly

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Re: Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

Post by KBABZ » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:02 am

The lines getting thinner is to be expected IMO. When you blur things, the pixels get smudges to ones nearby, making them look thicker. Here's a comparison between the Box and its original cel (which has been shrunk down to the size of the Dragon Box footage):

Image

And to prove my point, here's a practical demonstration I whipped up:

Image

For my money, the fact that the torrent has thinner lines and lacks the halos is good reason to at least suspect that it isn't an upscale. The identical frame counts can easily be explained in Toei possibly having a higher-resolution master that was shrunk for actual DVD publication, a practice that isn't uncommon (again, the Orange Bricks were "remastered" using that process).

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Re: Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:55 am

KBABZ wrote:The lines getting thinner is to be expected IMO. When you blur things, the pixels get smudges to ones nearby, making them look thicker. Here's a comparison between the Box and its original cel (which has been shrunk down to the size of the Dragon Box footage):

Image

And to prove my point, here's a practical demonstration I whipped up:

Image

For my money, the fact that the torrent has thinner lines and lacks the halos is good reason to at least suspect that it isn't an upscale. The identical frame counts can easily be explained in Toei possibly having a higher-resolution master that was shrunk for actual DVD publication, a practice that isn't uncommon (again, the Orange Bricks were "remastered" using that process).
you made a point as visually talking it look thinner (but seems that it also the same pixel) but it doesn't mean anything as mine have the same sharpness and also without haloing , so it is possible to get that artificially, about artifact take in consideration that screenshot aren't lossless and need to be from the exact same frame (not the following not the previously else it will lead to wrong result), it's an encode so the compression can also alter things and if i can get same line i think that with some other function you can imitate this cleaning artifact...
i mean that there a lot of things that can alter image or video that i keep thinking it can't be true HD even if very good encode

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Re: Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

Post by musicto » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:00 pm

So I went ahead and did a screenshot comparison of the Dragon Box vs the torrent in question. They are the exact same frames btw.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/124990
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/124991
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/124992
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/124993
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/124994

It's a very good upscale of the Dragon Box footage in my opinion. Same colors, same grain structure, but no extra detail. I specifically took far shots to see if any extra detail would pop up but alas nothing :(

This is what I mean by same grain structure, I took Bulma's screenshot as it's easy to spot that big rectangular thing in both shots.
Last edited by musicto on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

Post by KBABZ » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:28 pm

musicto wrote:It's a very good upscale of the Dragon Box footage in my opinion. Same colors, same grain structure, but no extra detail. I specifically took far shots to see if any extra detail would pop up but alas nothing :(
I partially disagree on the lack of detail; I feel like you can more clearly see the linework, like where it briefly gets thinner at the top of the Capsule bike.

Nice job getting the exact frames, that's dedication!

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Re: Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

Post by musicto » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:54 pm

Hmmm, now I wonder if it's because of the higher resolution or because of a sharpening filter.

Anyways, here's a couple more screenshots I took:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/125014
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/125015
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/125017

I don't know, I feel like if it were a higher resolution video of the same film transfer it should look more clearly. Take this shot for example, I feel like those Kanjis at the door should be more legible. For example here's a comparison of the Japanese DVD release of a Yu-Gi-Oh! movie and an HDTV rip from Animax; you can clearly see there's more detail to it (the trap card for example):

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/125029

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Re: Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

Post by KBABZ » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:38 pm

musicto wrote:I don't know, I feel like if it were a higher resolution video of the same film transfer it should look more clearly. Take this shot for example, I feel like those Kanjis at the door should be more legible.
Well there's only so much you can do on old footage in my opinion. I think there are many reasons why there's only so much you can do with old footage or the current master. Maybe this is the upper limit of the Box master's clarity due to the way Pony Canyon remastered them. Maybe the original footage was that blurry. Maybe this torrent is actually part of an as-yet unannounced re-issue of Dragon Ball using production-grade remastering techniques. Or maybe it's someone's pet project that they only worked on for the original episode.

Perhaps a good test would be to take a frame from the Box, enlarge it to the size of the torrent, then do the comparison treatment?
musicto wrote:For example here's a comparison of the Japanese DVD release of a Yu-Gi-Oh! movie and an HDTV rip from Animax; you can clearly see there's more detail to it (the trap card for example):

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/125029
This comparison I don't think is a good example, because it's digitally animated (or at least inked and coloured digitally). In particular the halo lines around the outlines and stuff suggest to me that the DVD release is the HDTV footage shrunk down.

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Re: Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:30 am

KBABZ wrote:
musicto wrote:I don't know, I feel like if it were a higher resolution video of the same film transfer it should look more clearly. Take this shot for example, I feel like those Kanjis at the door should be more legible.
Well there's only so much you can do on old footage in my opinion. I think there are many reasons why there's only so much you can do with old footage or the current master. Maybe this is the upper limit of the Box master's clarity due to the way Pony Canyon remastered them. Maybe the original footage was that blurry. Maybe this torrent is actually part of an as-yet unannounced re-issue of Dragon Ball using production-grade remastering techniques. Or maybe it's someone's pet project that they only worked on for the original episode.

Perhaps a good test would be to take a frame from the Box, enlarge it to the size of the torrent, then do the comparison treatment?
musicto wrote:For example here's a comparison of the Japanese DVD release of a Yu-Gi-Oh! movie and an HDTV rip from Animax; you can clearly see there's more detail to it (the trap card for example):

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/125029
This comparison I don't think is a good example, because it's digitally animated (or at least inked and coloured digitally). In particular the halo lines around the outlines and stuff suggest to me that the DVD release is the HDTV footage shrunk down.
what justly show that could be a true HD release is extra details, a true hd footage will allways have extra details than the sd

about dragon box no episode was blurry originally but it could be during the transfer but this only show that it's the same transfer.
Image

HD episodes can't look like that torrent anyway amazon prime japan don't have HD for dragon ball so it's a fake for sure

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Re: Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

Post by KBABZ » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:33 am

HakkaiBills93 wrote:about dragon box no episode was blurry originally but it could be during the transfer but this only show that it's the same transfer.
Which was my argument! I think this is a higher-resolution version of the original transfer, which had to be shrunk to the smaller dimensions that are used on DVDs.

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Re: Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:39 am

the uploader of dragon ball torrent did the same with detective conan saying it's a "webrip'
in the description he said
"This is a Test release.

Source is webrip, lines and colors are corrected and severel enhancements have been applied.
" this guy is an encoder for me there is no doubt it is a fake"

here what kei (which is japanese and have great knowledge about how the dragon box was made said that about hokuto no ken
kei17 wrote:
AjayLikesGaming wrote:I think it'll be very interesting to see exactly how they would handle a high definition remaster. I'm not really aware of any of Toei's Blu-Ray releases for cel animated shows. What are their policies on grain reduction, colour timings etc?
Toei released an HD remastered DVD box of the Hokuto no Ken series. Though it's not Blu-ray, it's billed as being remastered in HD. They did extensive true-to-original-cels style color correction and cleared away the grain. I guess they'll do the same to Dragon Ball.


Image
Image

Image
Image


The Blu-ray box of Saint Seiya movies was done the same way.

Image
Image
Image

as he said that he hope toei doing the same for dragon ball it show that dragon ball wasn't remastered in HD

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Re: Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

Post by KBABZ » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:41 am

Welp, there we go, case closed!

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Re: Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

Post by HakkaiBills93 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:15 am

KBABZ wrote:
musicto wrote:For example here's a comparison of the Japanese DVD release of a Yu-Gi-Oh! movie and an HDTV rip from Animax; you can clearly see there's more detail to it (the trap card for example):

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/125029
This comparison I don't think is a good example, because it's digitally animated (or at least inked and coloured digitally). In particular the halo lines around the outlines and stuff suggest to me that the DVD release is the HDTV footage shrunk down.
it's a good example even if it is true that it's not cel animation but you can see that the sd footage even if downscale lack footage..i made 3 screenshot
1 the sd footage untouch that musicto did
Image
2 the sd footage upscale the same way as the db are
Image
3 the original hd footage
Image

as you can notice the 2 which is an upscale of the sd footage don't have extra details compared to the sd even if the sharpening is better and there is no haloing
even if the 1 was a downscale, if it was natively HD you can't get extra details by sharpening, upscaling
so 1 can be downscale from 3 but 2 can't be from 3 (the source)

if 2 was really HD it should look like 3 and not the same as 1 with extra sharpening

so dragon ball can't be HD

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Re: Has Dragon Ball been remastered to HD or not?

Post by KBABZ » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:17 am

HakkaiBills93 wrote:so dragon ball can't be HD
Not strictly true. Film is an analog medium, if they had a good master they could scan it in HD if they wanted to.

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