How do Dragon Ball fights compare to other anime fights?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Bullza
Banned
Posts: 8621
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:48 am
Location: UK

Re: How do Dragon Ball fights compare to other anime fights?

Post by Bullza » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:03 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:It sounds like you haven't actually watched any of those shows to be honest.
I've seen them all.

This year I kept hearing about a particularly great fight in My Hero Academia involving Midoriya and Todoroki. I was looking forward to seeing it because of the praise.

And how did this so called incredible fight play out?

1. Todoroki sent out some ice and Midoriya flicked the ice.

2. Todoroki sent out some more ice and Midoriya flicked the ice.

3. Todoroki sent out ice yet again..... Midoriya flicked the ice.

4. Todoroki sent out more ice because it had worked so well the three previous times and what do you think Midoriya did? Yeah he flicked the ice. Same thing four times in a row.

5. Todoroki sent out more ice and Midoriya flicked the ice but wait this time Todoroki ran across the ice. He then did another ice attack and Midoriya punched the ice.

6. Todoroki sent out more ice and Midoriya flicked it again because it was so interesting the first time that we just needed to see the same thing another four times.

7. Finally they got up close and Midoriya actually hit him, it took that long into the fight before somebody actually hit someone.

8. Todoroki sent out more ice and Midoriya flicked it though at least this time they actually moved.

9. Midoriya punched him again and Todoroki uses his fire powers.

10. They do this big joint attack at one another....which doesn't even land because the others stop it. End of fight.


That hardly resembles a fight, it was a "let's take turns doing the same technique over and over and then do a big attack at the end". It's the equivalent of if Goku vs Jiren stood in the same spot for most of the fight taking turns fires blasts at each with two punches actually thrown.

It is a technique fest like many Shonen fights where they just take turns doing different techniques until one goes down first.

Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6333
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: How do Dragon Ball fights compare to other anime fights?

Post by Cipher » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:12 am

I identify with a lot of the posts ribbing the series' fights for lack of coreography or creativity, especially in the anime, but I don't think Toriyama is being given nearly enough credit for 1) more or less inventing a visual style for both readable and explosively large-scale action that is still copied to this day, and 2) keeping it so consistently readable and interesting.

There's never a question of what you're looking at in the manga, and fights flow narratively, both in terms of their own structure and how they slot into the larger story in terms of advancing events and characters. That's incredible considering how quickly abstract the scale of the action becomes.

I don't really know how it compares to other anime, but I also kind of dgaf. Y'all are sleeping on what the manga did.

Ripper 30
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:16 am
Location: India

Re: How do Dragon Ball fights compare to other anime fights?

Post by Ripper 30 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:04 am

Cipher wrote:I identify with a lot of the posts ribbing the series' fights for lack of coreography or creativity, especially in the anime, but I don't think Toriyama is being given nearly enough credit for 1) more or less inventing a visual style for both readable and explosively large-scale action that is still copied to this day, and 2) keeping it so consistently readable and interesting.

There's never a question of what you're looking at in the manga, and fights flow narratively, both in terms of their own structure and how they slot into the larger story in terms of advancing events and characters. That's incredible considering how quickly abstract the scale of the action becomes.

I don't really know how it compares to other anime, but I also kind of dgaf. Y'all are sleeping on what the manga did.
in manga form the fights are awesome but what do you think of the Anime version of those fights?
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
My MAL profile : https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ripper_30

Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6333
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: How do Dragon Ball fights compare to other anime fights?

Post by Cipher » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:10 am

Ripper 30 wrote:in manga form the fights are awesome but what do you think of the Anime version of those fights?
Why am I to judge the series by a constrained adaptation?

Some come through even better and some come through worse, but it's immaterial.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: How do Dragon Ball fights compare to other anime fights?

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:41 am

Constrained adaptation?

I don't see what the issue is here.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
supersaiyanZero
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:10 am

Re: How do Dragon Ball fights compare to other anime fights?

Post by supersaiyanZero » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:52 pm

Bullza wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:It sounds like you haven't actually watched any of those shows to be honest.
I've seen them all.

This year I kept hearing about a particularly great fight in My Hero Academia involving Midoriya and Todoroki. I was looking forward to seeing it because of the praise.

And how did this so called incredible fight play out?

1. Todoroki sent out some ice and Midoriya flicked the ice.

2. Todoroki sent out some more ice and Midoriya flicked the ice.

3. Todoroki sent out ice yet again..... Midoriya flicked the ice.

4. Todoroki sent out more ice because it had worked so well the three previous times and what do you think Midoriya did? Yeah he flicked the ice. Same thing four times in a row.

5. Todoroki sent out more ice and Midoriya flicked the ice but wait this time Todoroki ran across the ice. He then did another ice attack and Midoriya punched the ice.

6. Todoroki sent out more ice and Midoriya flicked it again because it was so interesting the first time that we just needed to see the same thing another four times.

7. Finally they got up close and Midoriya actually hit him, it took that long into the fight before somebody actually hit someone.

8. Todoroki sent out more ice and Midoriya flicked it though at least this time they actually moved.

9. Midoriya punched him again and Todoroki uses his fire powers.

10. They do this big joint attack at one another....which doesn't even land because the others stop it. End of fight.


That hardly resembles a fight, it was a "let's take turns doing the same technique over and over and then do a big attack at the end". It's the equivalent of if Goku vs Jiren stood in the same spot for most of the fight taking turns fires blasts at each with two punches actually thrown.

It is a technique fest like many Shonen fights where they just take turns doing different techniques until one goes down first.
And here is what you or the team behind Super can't seem to understand. While the fight was "simple" in terms of techniques being used, it was better than any fight in Super so far. For starters, it was very well choreographed. The techniques might have been simple but each time they were used it was expressed in a fresh and dynamic way visually. On top of that, there were stakes. There was [personal investment in each of the characters. There were high and lows for each during the fight, and you really didn't know who would win and how. The characters adopted strategies to keep their opponent (and us) on our feet. The expressions on these characters really lent itself to the feeling that each one is willing to do anything to win. There were also drawbacks to each technique - for example with each "flick" Midoriya came closer to losing.

The dramatic tension was worlds above anything we've seen in Super so far. It was just a tournament, but they way this fight was portrayed you'd have a hard time arguing they weren't fighting for the survival of their respective universes.

User avatar
Bullza
Banned
Posts: 8621
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:48 am
Location: UK

Re: How do Dragon Ball fights compare to other anime fights?

Post by Bullza » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:49 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:For starters, it was very well choreographed.
The choreography was atrocious, repeating the exact same moves in turns over and over is terrible choreography. It was just directed in a good way but that didn't stop the fight from just recycling the same moves constantly.
On top of that, there were stakes.
No there weren't. They were fighting in a Tournament where they didn't even have to actually win in order to achieve their goal. All winning meant was that they had more chances to show their skills which might mean they'd be up for becoming a side kick.

But of course in the end neither of them or Bakugo who actually won, got anything out of it. So it really made no difference who won at all.
There was [personal investment in each of the characters.
No more than in most fights involving characters we're familiar with.
There were high and lows for each during the fight
Which again is true for most fights because of what I said is typical of Shonen battles these days where they are constantly taking turns doing techniques. Each time them doing a technique it needing to be focused on.

One character will do a technique, it will have its affect, positive or negative, there will be some reaction to whichever result it is and then the other character will do an attack and it's the same thing again. Then they repeat this a few times as they take turns and then it's over.
And you really didn't know who would win and how.
It was painfully obvious how that was fight was going to go. With them playing up Todoroki and Bakugo's rivalry from the start of the Tournament, something that had not been a thing at all prior to the Tournament, it was clear that was going to be the final match especially as Midoriya had already fought Bakugo not that long ago.

How Todoroki was going to win was equally as obvious because when they make a big point of Todoroki having some power that he supposedly refuses to ever use....you know perfectly well that he's going to end up on the back foot and then come out with this power to win.

The entire fight was as cliché as it could possibly be, highly typical of modern day anime battles. It just happened to look fantastic. I won't argue that the fight didn't visually look better than those in Super but the fight itself was as predictable as they come.

User avatar
floofychan333
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1377
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:03 pm
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: How do Dragon Ball fights compare to other anime fights?

Post by floofychan333 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:37 am

Well, they're certainly paced better than Naruto fights, but that's not saying much.
"All of you. All of you must have KILL all the SEASONS!" -Dough (Tenshinhan), Speedy Dub of Movie 9.

"My opinion of Norihito's Sumitomo's new score is... well, very mixed. The stuff that's good is pretty darn good, but the stuff that's bad makes elevator music sound like Jerry freaking Goldsmith." -Kenisu

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: How do Dragon Ball fights compare to other anime fights?

Post by Doctor. » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:20 pm

The anime's fights are terrible. The cuts are slow-paced, with mostly janky animation, spliced with excessive dialogue. That's where all the stereotypes of the series originated from, and it not only applies to Z, but to DB and Kai as well.

The manga's battles are still fantastic, however. And that mostly stems from Toriyama's superb sense of flow and unrivaled paneling. Modern Shounen manga feels too cluttered: you read a One Piece fight nowadays and the page is full of 50 panels focused on dialogue, rather than the fight itself. Exposition is the goal, not the spectacle. Not only that, but the panel composition is awful and completely disrupts the flow of the action. This is also true, though to a lesser extent, for MHA and Naruto. Then you have cases where the art is just incredibly messy that you can't even tell what's going on: Tokyo Ghoul or even one of my favorites like Trigun (Seinen, not Shounen, I know, but they're still battle series), for instance. You'll find that Toriyama usually doesn't use more than 4 or 5 panels per page in a fight and the action flows naturally from one panel to the other. The art is clear, without unnecessary details. Each chapter has some kind of arc: for example, every chapter during the tournament arcs is dedicated to one technique being used by the opponent only for Goku to counter it by the end of the chapter. Some authors now utilize this technique, but there's also a large number of authors that set a hint of some strategy 10 chapters ago and expect you to remember it when they reveal it. This disrupts the flow once again because it forces us to go back and reread the previous chapters to get the full picture. This isn't much of a problem if you're reading it in one sitting, but it gets especially annoying if you're reading it week-to-week. Dragon Ball fights also don't feel repetitive, you'll never get the feeling that you've seen that sequence before, like in Toyotaro's DBS or the Z anime, or Hajime no Ippo to use another series. Bleach is an example of a manga with great panel composition and a fantastic sense of flow that feels repetitive. Kubo is a great artist, but not a very creative one, at least in regards to his main character. Most of Ichigo's fights end up feeling the same; the more interesting fights belong to the side-characters but we, the audience, shouldn't really care about those fights because the author doesn't give us a reason to care, the fights aren't really tied to the main plot. There are other aspects to Toriyama's art that make his manga such a joy to read, like the creative use of angles, his sense of perspective and the fantastic use of speed lines, but I feel I highlighted the main ones.

I think the only series that compares to Dragon Ball in regards to these aspects I mentioned is Hunter x Hunter. I recently reread the manga and was surprised at how entertaining the battles are. The action flows naturally, the art is simple and readable (ignoring those chapters that haven't been redrawn yet) with a very appealing art style, any strategies usually just take place over the course of 2 to 3 chapters. Hunter x Hunter has a number of other issues, but its battles (when they actually happen) are great. It looks like Togashi benefited a lot from the experience of drawing Yu Yu Hakusho (which pales in comparison in every aspect to both HxH and DB). I'd say the battles were better than DB's due to the more intellectual aspect if DB didn't have the more memorable sequences; Toriyama's choreography is fantastic.

I read Kenshin like 4 years ago, so my memory is hazy, but I remember also being greatly entertained. Another manga, which I feel is greatly inspired by DB in fight choreography, paneling and even art style, is Seven Deadly Sins. Its action sequences are also great. Vagabond is also fantastic, and it has amazing art to boot.

User avatar
FortuneSSJ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5812
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:07 pm

Re: How do Dragon Ball fights compare to other anime fights?

Post by FortuneSSJ » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:37 pm

Bullza wrote: This year I kept hearing about a particularly great fight in My Hero Academia involving Midoriya and Todoroki. I was looking forward to seeing it because of the praise.
This also happened to me. I love the show and I went to watch that fight with big expectations only to come out "disappointed".
I say "disappointed" because I do think more than a great fight it's a great episode, but definitely not "One of the best anime fights ever!!!" that a lot of people made it out to be.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.

User avatar
supersaiyanZero
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:10 am

Re: How do Dragon Ball fights compare to other anime fights?

Post by supersaiyanZero » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:52 pm

Bullza wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:For starters, it was very well choreographed.
The choreography was atrocious, repeating the exact same moves in turns over and over is terrible choreography. It was just directed in a good way but that didn't stop the fight from just recycling the same moves constantly.
On top of that, there were stakes.
No there weren't. They were fighting in a Tournament where they didn't even have to actually win in order to achieve their goal. All winning meant was that they had more chances to show their skills which might mean they'd be up for becoming a side kick.

But of course in the end neither of them or Bakugo who actually won, got anything out of it. So it really made no difference who won at all.
There was [personal investment in each of the characters.
No more than in most fights involving characters we're familiar with.
There were high and lows for each during the fight
Which again is true for most fights because of what I said is typical of Shonen battles these days where they are constantly taking turns doing techniques. Each time them doing a technique it needing to be focused on.

One character will do a technique, it will have its affect, positive or negative, there will be some reaction to whichever result it is and then the other character will do an attack and it's the same thing again. Then they repeat this a few times as they take turns and then it's over.
And you really didn't know who would win and how.
It was painfully obvious how that was fight was going to go. With them playing up Todoroki and Bakugo's rivalry from the start of the Tournament, something that had not been a thing at all prior to the Tournament, it was clear that was going to be the final match especially as Midoriya had already fought Bakugo not that long ago.

How Todoroki was going to win was equally as obvious because when they make a big point of Todoroki having some power that he supposedly refuses to ever use....you know perfectly well that he's going to end up on the back foot and then come out with this power to win.

The entire fight was as cliché as it could possibly be, highly typical of modern day anime battles. It just happened to look fantastic. I won't argue that the fight didn't visually look better than those in Super but the fight itself was as predictable as they come.

I have no idea how to respond to this, because the bias is so strong I'm wondering if it's even worth it.

User avatar
MozillaVulpix
Regular
Posts: 669
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:01 pm
Contact:

Re: How do Dragon Ball fights compare to other anime fights?

Post by MozillaVulpix » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:09 am

I think they hold up pretty well. I don't ever feel like they're ever lacking. Maybe they feel a little short by the Cell and Buu arcs (especially with the Buu arcs smaller chapter page count), but they also importantly never overstay their welcome. Alright, maybe Freeza didn't need to have 4 forms in retrospect, but enough is constantly happening in that fight it never feels like the characters are abruptly stopping what they're doing to wait for the next chapter.

One thing that I do appreciate about the way the fighting style works is that it's simple enough for a character to pull out a secret technique and have the audience easily understand what it's supposed to be without having to give a lecture about the deep scientific workings of their magical powers. Something like Goku's teleporting Kamehameha. Goku charges up an attack, then teleports at the very last minute to catch them off-guard. It's easy to understand, and it's also easy to believe how it could provide an advantage over regular punches and kicks and energy blasts. It also reminds me of Super, and the Kamehameha Goku used to grind over Kafla's final attack to hit her. Because these powers simply work on ki, and not some sort of deep scientific concept rooted in real-world physics, anything and everything can happen, and I can still feasibly believe it.
I could have gotten into anything...and yet I chose the story aimed at young Japanese boys about martial arts, and later about super-powerful aliens punching each other really hard.

https://www.youtube.com/c/MozillaVulpix

Ripper 30
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:16 am
Location: India

Re: How do Dragon Ball fights compare to other anime fights?

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:37 am

MozillaVulpix wrote: One thing that I do appreciate about the way the fighting style works is that it's simple enough for a character to pull out a secret technique and have the audience easily understand what it's supposed to be without having to give a lecture about the deep scientific workings of their magical powers. Something like Goku's teleporting Kamehameha. Goku charges up an attack, then teleports at the very last minute to catch them off-guard. It's easy to understand, and it's also easy to believe how it could provide an advantage over regular punches and kicks and energy blasts. It also reminds me of Super, and the Kamehameha Goku used to grind over Kafla's final attack to hit her. Because these powers simply work on ki, and not some sort of deep scientific concept rooted in real-world physics, anything and everything can happen, and I can still feasibly believe it.
yes, the Ki power does not need much explanation as it exists in real life too and just made supernatural element in the show. but, all the Chakra or Nen systems are not applicable in real life that's why requires long explanations of how things work or how they can be applied, so i don't see the reasons for the common complaint of the fans for Dragon Ball fights not being strategic with a explanations of the plans at every turn like in other animes because not every anime fight needs that.
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
My MAL profile : https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ripper_30

Post Reply