Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

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Re: Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

Post by ABED » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:40 am

That's why the DCAU guys rarely used Bane or Doomsday. They saw them as just gimmicks to take their big guys out.
It's a shame that Bane is lumped in with Doomsday. The latter is a mindless monster, the former is quite intelligent.

My familiarity with comics is relegated to those I read in the 90s comic boom and a few more adult ones I read in high school that were more adult, like The Crow and Watchmen. I don't think I was the age where I could really appreciate them.

While I understand the desire for a story with a beginning, middle, and end, one thing I did like about many superhero comics (and still do to an extent) is the ability to jump into the middle of a run and not be lost because of the years of continuity that I missed. Many books felt like they were written like they were written with that in mind.
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Re: Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:45 am

I've never really thought about it. It's kind of hard to compare really since long running comics have periods where a run by an author can be really good, followed by barren run of years of mediocrity with another. For example no Batman run has come close to the quality of Grant Morrison's and it's been 4 years.
When a comic book is great it easily surpasses DB, art is only one aspect and to be frank DB is not well written and a downright disaster in terms of writing after the Freeza arc. But DB is DB so I don't really compare DB to anything I read.

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Re: Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:03 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:the legions upon legions of generic crap (I mean take your pick here, there are far too many examples, but I'll single out pretty much 99% of anything having to do with The Avengers across virtually any given decade: probably one of the single most consistently ungodly boring and dull of the "major marquee names" in superheroes)
Call me a hipster, but I was a fan of the Avengers before the movies came out, and they had tons of great stories. The Kang Dynasty, Under Siege, Ultron Unlimited, the Kree/Skrull war... all good stuff.
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Re: Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:39 pm

Not very well, I'd say.
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Re: Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

Post by supersaiyanZero » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:13 pm

To be honest, even the majority of Marvel's stuff (DC in the 70's/80's) is eons ahead of Dragonball Z. This is not even getting into graphic novels like Sandman, Preacher, etc.

That being said, Dragonball is an adventure story that runs much longer than any arc in US comic books so it's hard to compare. But let's not pretend a simple action adventure story holds a candle to something like the latest Secret Wars or All-Star Superman, Sandman, etc.

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Re: Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

Post by precita » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:02 pm

If you're speaking of mainstream comics, the vast majority of DC/Marvel has aged poor.

Comics from the 30's-60's are too cheesy/silly or simple to hold up to today's standards. We know what these comics were like, characters were bland with silly world domination plots that we see parodied in shows today. The 70's-80's were basically the 20 years of comics at their heights, and the many of the most iconic stories were written. Then the 90's went too far in the opposite direction with extreme 90's plotlines of deaths, killings, and crazy stuff. Since then the 2000's are a mixed bag since half of the old stuff is now retconned and the new stuff has too many quick reboots or changes.

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Re: Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:03 pm

precita wrote:If you're speaking of mainstream comics, the vast majority of DC/Marvel has aged poor.

Comics from the 30's-60's are too cheesy/silly or simple to hold up to today's standards. We know what these comics were like, characters were bland with silly world domination plots that we see parodied in shows today.
Yeah, but they have a certain charm to them because of that.
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Re: Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

Post by Cipher » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:19 am

Woah, woah, woah.

Golden Age comics, especially in the late '30s and early '40s, are 1) almost never about world-domination plots, and 2) super bomb. They're anything-goes pulp with the charm of the race to invent iconography and figure out how to use a nascent medium.

Plus, Superman as a working-class radical is *okay emoji*.

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Re: Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

Post by ABED » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:40 am

I think many self-proclaimed comic book fans would be surprised at how violent early Superman could be.

Given that DB is one story, it's not a fair comparison to an entire medium.
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Re: Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:58 am

ABED wrote:I think many self-proclaimed comic book fans would be surprised at how violent early Superman could be.

Given that DB is one story, it's not a fair comparison to an entire medium.
Well Batman used guns and regularly killed people in the Golden Age, so yeah it was more violent than the Silver and Bronze ages.
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Re: Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

Post by ABED » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:14 pm

I think that fact is better known than Superman killed gangsters.
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Re: Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

Post by sintzu » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:12 am

supersaiyanZero wrote:To be honest, even the majority of Marvel's stuff (DC in the 70's/80's) is eons ahead of Dragonball Z.
You could say that form a story point of view but DB has them and most comics beat in the art and fighting departments.
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Re: Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:48 am

Cipher wrote:Woah, woah, woah.

Golden Age comics, especially in the late '30s and early '40s, are 1) almost never about world-domination plots, and 2) super bomb. They're anything-goes pulp with the charm of the race to invent iconography and figure out how to use a nascent medium.

Plus, Superman as a working-class radical is *okay emoji*.
Clearly the stereotype being invoked here is that of the Silver Age (and its not thaaaaaaat far off from being fairly on the money either, though even then there are certainly some relatively rare, but super notable and important Silver Age books that buck a lot of those conventions in their own ways).

Golden Age U.S. comics are indeed a WHOLE other different (and vastly better than Silver) breed unto themselves.
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
precita wrote:If you're speaking of mainstream comics, the vast majority of DC/Marvel has aged poor.

Comics from the 30's-60's are too cheesy/silly or simple to hold up to today's standards. We know what these comics were like, characters were bland with silly world domination plots that we see parodied in shows today.
Yeah, but they have a certain charm to them because of that.
That... is HIGHLY debatable at best. I would contend personally that no, no they absolutely do not contain one bit of "charm" to them because of those factors. Sometimes occasionally they do, sure (when they go really and especially above and beyond mind bendingly epic levels of daft stupidity), but more often than not on average they tend to be merely brain-damaged and witless beyond belief. And on those occasional instances where the stupidity does cross over into legit unintentional comedy, it is clearly a case of the reader laughing AT and not WITH the material.

Note: This is regarding the Silver Age, so this would be applying to comics of the 1950s and 60s. 30s-40s are the Golden Age, which tend to overall be MUCH better in comparison. Bronze Age (1970s and early-most 1980s) are where things start becoming actually readable and worthwhile again.
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Kunzait_83 wrote:the legions upon legions of generic crap (I mean take your pick here, there are far too many examples, but I'll single out pretty much 99% of anything having to do with The Avengers across virtually any given decade: probably one of the single most consistently ungodly boring and dull of the "major marquee names" in superheroes)
Call me a hipster, but I was a fan of the Avengers before the movies came out, and they had tons of great stories. The Kang Dynasty, Under Siege, Ultron Unlimited, the Kree/Skrull war... all good stuff.
By that same "hipster" token, I've been reading comics since the latter half of the 1980s. I was more than well aware of who the Avengers were and read more than my share of their storylines decades long before something akin to the MCU was ever anything more than a wet dream fantasy in the minds of a typical fanboy of the time. And with that having been said, my view of them as "the 2nd most boring major superhero team in all of comics" (1st going to the Justice League) still stands firm. I've read Kang Dynasty, I've read Under Siege, I've read the Kree/Skrull War, Ultron Unlimited, etc. God help me, I remember Operation Galactic Storm, and *shudder* The Crossing.

The Avengers was NEVER a good comic. Ever. Ever-ever. Until Bendis' Disassembled storyline and then the MCU films, almost NO ONE at ANY point in history (outside of the Silver Age, their commercial heyday) reading comics prior gave so much as two flying fucks about The Avengers and the book/team spent numerous decades before eternally wallowing and staggering about in the perpetual shadow of vastly better, more cutting edge and mold-shattering books like the X-Men, Spider-Man, and Daredevil for damn good reason.

While Marvel's X books were trailblazing a daring new vision of superhero comics as voices of counter-cultural thinking and tackling the most sensitive and volatile of finger-on-the-pulse social and political issues (while presenting a TRULY diverse and staggeringly well developed and fleshed cast of characters who were boundlessly more human and relatable than just about anything else coming from the Big Two at the time), Avengers was content to spend the better part of 40-someodd years dithering around in boilerplate Saturday morning cartoon "gotta save the world from the Evil Robots/Alien Space Invaders" schlock shenanigans.

At the same time that Avengers was going through its *ahem* "magnum opus" epic story of the Avengers' mansion being attacked and destroyed by the Masters of Evil (Mwahahahaha!) the X-Men and their satellite books were tackling geopolitical issues like slavery, apartheid, terrorism, ethnic cleansing, and of course social ills like racism/bigotry, social Darwinism, poverty, the AIDS epidemic, etc. All under the veneer of allegorical superhero trappings. And all with VASTLY better - and insanely more experimental - artwork from the likes of everyone from Bill Sienkiewicz, Jai Lee, Arthur Adams, Jon J. Muth, Sam Kieth, Barry Windsor-Smith, and on and on.

AND while still making time in between for more "out there" silly/ridiculous storylines and ideas (the Mojoverse, Siege Perilous, Excalibur, etc) whose inspirations came less from boilerplate Silver Age cliches and cartoon nonsense, and more from the kinds of drugged out, hallucinogenic dreamscapes that feel much more of a piece with the surrealist works of people like Philip K. Dick and Kurt Vonnegut than they do Z grade Saturday matinee serials with mustache twirling supervillains.

There's a damn well justified reason for why The Avengers - up until Bendis and the MCU - went largely ignored and laughed off by even much of hardcore comic book nerd culture of the latter 70s, 80s, and 90s (aside from their own niche-within-a-niche fanbase) while X-Men just grew and grew and grew into Marvel's overwhelmingly biggest non-Spider-Man success story (inevitably being ran thoroughly into the ground themselves obviously, but still not after a helluva near 20-ish year run of mostly solid work): they had the cutting edge premise, the creative talent, the stellar character lineup, and the balls to push the envelope and go to places that NO other mainstream superhero comic before (or since) would ever dare to.

The Avengers meanwhile had cheesy, awful villains, cliche "beat up bad guys/save the world" plots, and a central cast of characters whose potentials were FAR better and more successfully explored in their own solo books (which mostly contain at bare minimum one solidly great, classic run apiece; Cap had Jim Steranko and then later Ed Brubaker, Hulk had Peter David of course, Thor had Walt Simonson, Black Widow had a kickass supporting role throughout Frank Miller's Daredevil, and Iron Man had... uh... that Armor Wars story that was kinda fun? Seriously, even solo Iron Man was fairly worthless) than at almost ANY point when they were all together as a team doing painfully little else besides running around and punching green spacemen and robots at almost any given interval (to say nothing of their inane, transparent, and torturous attempts at ripping off the X-Men at various points in time, to humiliatingly cringe-worthy results).

Seriously: try slogging through ANY given Avengers storyline pre-Bendis. Hell, even from Bendis onward. Literally almost ANY story of ANY era. The Avengers were, are, and always will remain a fucking tedious snore and the single most uninteresting and unappealing aspect of the Marvel Universe. If the X-Men were The Beatles: artful and envelope pushing iconoclasts, and the street level heroes (Daredevil, Punisher, Cloak & Dagger, Moon Knight, Blade, Ghost Rider, etc) were the Rolling Stones: hard rocking, cooler-than-the-rest badasses among badasses, then the Avengers were The Monkeeys: vanilla, milquetoast, whitebread goobers through and through.
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Re: Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:54 am

ABED wrote:
That's why the DCAU guys rarely used Bane or Doomsday. They saw them as just gimmicks to take their big guys out.
It's a shame that Bane is lumped in with Doomsday. The latter is a mindless monster, the former is quite intelligent.

My familiarity with comics is relegated to those I read in the 90s comic boom and a few more adult ones I read in high school that were more adult, like The Crow and Watchmen. I don't think I was the age where I could really appreciate them.

While I understand the desire for a story with a beginning, middle, and end, one thing I did like about many superhero comics (and still do to an extent) is the ability to jump into the middle of a run and not be lost because of the years of continuity that I missed. Many books felt like they were written like they were written with that in mind.
I think there's like only one or two times where Bane's a great villain.
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Re: Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:00 am

The phrase "all good things must come to an end" don't exist with comics like from DC or Marvel. Even with manga such as One Piece which is going to go on until those in our 20's and 30's now will be in our 40's and 50's (trust me, Kanzenshuu's wiki is going to be out looooooong before OP ends), it at least has an end in sight. Unlike DC or Marvel where every 2 or 3 decades there's a huge continuity reboot and they just keep pushing on.

Huge Batman fan, he's my all-time favorite hero and I've read many of his comics and different authors, such as Grant Morrison's Batman, Frank Miller's Batman, Mark Waid's Batman, Scott Snyder's Batman and now Tom King's Batman, to name a few. Though, I like Dragon Ball manga because of it's originality throughout the chapters, American comics (and I'm from the US) can tend to be really repetitive, reusing material from older stories over and over and over. Originality can only go on for so long. And since there are so many comics for just one character such as Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, etc, it's really hard to know where to start and it's a lot to binge-read. Not to mention there's so much to keep up with in terms of crossover events and events from other series that are happening in parallel with each other (especially Batman, since there's Detective Comics, Nightwing, Batgirl, Red Hood, Red Robin, Robin, or Justice League events tying in with Superman, Batman, etc).

If we're going to take Dragon Ball as whole, then I'll include animated adaptations of comics as well. They at least don't have to deal with the issues of the anime industry at times and such, however, in order to keep it that way, animated TV shows in the states take long hiatuses and stuff, but it can be worth the wait. Will admit DB has the edge in video games, however.

Though, repetitiveness, ceaselessness, reboots and extortionate stories aside, American comics have the slight edge for me over Dragon Ball for the moment.

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Re: Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:43 am

I think there's like only one or two times where Bane's a great villain.
That comes down to the writer, not the character.

That pretty much goes for comics as a whole. It comes down to the who the writer is. DB has one writer and the characters are the ones created by Akira Toriyama.
Avengers was content to spend the better part of 40-someodd years dithering around in boilerplate Saturday morning cartoon "gotta save the world from the Evil Robots/Alien Space Invaders" schlock shenanigans.
To which I will say "I don't care". Tackling social issues doesn't make something good. What made it good is telling good stories. Any hack writer can put their politics in their writing, but that won't automatically make them worth turning the page.

Is your issue that Avengers wasn't tackling big issues or that the stories weren't good? Because we're on a DB forum, a story that doesn't have villains with deep motivations, created by a writer who has a predilection for sex jokes.
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Re: Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

Post by Cipher » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:14 am

While I can't speak for any individual issues with The Avengers or any other superhero book, I will say that I think it's fair to draw a distinction between a genre that strives as frequently to be (and I'd say is, inherently) as politically or socially relevant as Western superhero comics, and Dragon Ball, which fits by turns into its gag/king-fu/wuxia corner, operating toward much different goals and drawing from much different histories.

Because, yeah, a spark of relevance is also something I look for in Western superhero books (and non-Wearern genre stuff depending on the material; it'd better be there in kaiju films), but not something I grade Dragom Ball by.

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Re: Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:27 am

I don't think there's any need for distinction. I feel that whether something is good or not isn't dependent on that sort of context. I like The Beatles because I think the music is good. How progressive in their songwriting or in their politics isn't relevant. I like different things for different reasons and I'm not always in the mood for the same things. Sometimes, I'm into something that aspires to something deeper, and sometimes I just want to see a character punch someone in the face.
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Re: Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:12 am

Considering that the point of this thread is to compare western comics to Dragonball, is it really fair to criticize the Avengers for 'save the world' plots involving punching robots and alien invaders to when that's pretty much what DBZ boils down to as well? Replace a few words in your rant and you might as well have been complaining about DB.

When is the last time the Dragonball franchise had a socially conscious storyline intended as a metaphor for relevant real world problems?

One of my favorite franchises of all time is Doctor Who, and the high concept and metaphorical plots there are great, but sometimes you just want to watch/read about people punching monsters.

Also, is it fair to criticize the Avengers for fighting a team called "The Masters of Evil" while simultaneously praising the X-Men and Spider-Man, who have villain teams called "The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants" and "The Sinister Six"?
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Re: Comic Fans: How does Dragon Ball compare to your favorite American comics?

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:27 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:Considering that the point of this thread is to compare western comics to Dragonball, is it really fair to criticize the Avengers for 'save the world' plots involving punching robots and alien invaders to when that's pretty much what DBZ boils down to as well? Replace a few words in your rant and you might as well have been complaining about DB.

When is the last time the Dragonball franchise had a socially conscious storyline intended as a metaphor for relevant real world problems?

One of my favorite franchises of all time is Doctor Who, and the high concept and metaphorical plots there are great, but sometimes you just want to watch/read about people punching monsters.

Also, is it fair to criticize the Avengers for fighting a team called "The Masters of Evil" while simultaneously praising the X-Men and Spider-Man, who have villain teams called "The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants" and "The Sinister Six"?
Nope, none of those are fair things to criticize.

I can't think really of a time where that happened, so you're right.
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