Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

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Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

Post by MR.Mark » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:09 pm

Without trying to make this topic convoluted, it's been on of my biggest fan desires for the DB series to one day get a long running series of well adapted live action films. You'd have to fill in some blanks since Super is still going but we're far enough ahead to know the majority of the story.

I'm not against deviations from source material , especially if it improves it. One of the minor disadvantages the series had at times was lack of consistency due to Toriyama's off the cuff writing style. So how would you polish and refine the story and characters from this series?

I'll start with Piccolo, now he's one of the greatest evil for the sake of it characters. Toriyama makes it work because beyond being evil, we actually see Piccolo do interesting stuff. Like overthrow the king and change laws etc. However, with the reborn Piccolo, I'm not buying it. Just like how you could argue Perfect Cell's evilness was tacked on, I feel Piccolo jr was the same.

It wasn't terrible, just not necessary, especially knowing the Piccolo he became. it's odd because the moment the reborn Piccolo is introduced you'd think he wasn't necessarily evil to begin with. From his more handsome face, to his iconic cape and headgear, Piccolo from the get go looked like a noble warrior.

This is a case where events in the story more or less can play out the same, just with some tweaks. Piccolo could simply have a desire to want Goku dead out of pure revenge, no tacked on world conquest or mustache twirling. Just a tough bastard that when defeated buggers off to meditate in the desert. He eventually gets his blood lust out of his system by killing Goku during his sacrifice to Raditz. With that out of his system, the subtle journey to becoming good begins.

Seems like a long winded way to explain a few simple points but that's my view. Beyond wanting Goku dead ol Ma JR's evil intentions should of been left mysterious and vague. Less id more in his case.

Do you agree with my views, and what would you re-adapt? Hopefully this makes for an interesting and fun topic.

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Re: Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

Post by floofychan333 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:46 am

Piccolo could certainly be developed differently. The only real context we have for him being evil is him being the reincarnation of Daimao and some filler stuff.
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Re: Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

Post by Kuwabara » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:59 am

Gohan's relationships with Future Trunks and Android 16 aren't as developed as they could be either. This is a positive aspect of Super's Future Trunks arc; the gravity of Gohan still living in another timeline finally impacts Future Trunks beyond just a casual observation, which is basically all we got in Z.

As for 16, his death is what ultimately sets Gohan off... But they barely interact! It's still a powerful scene, but even Funimation's English dub catches on to this, though they go about "fixing" it in a terrible way with Gohan's misplaced inner monologue. Still, I can see why they thought it was a good idea. Just an exchange or two between Gohan and 16 before the Cell Games would have served as more build-up. Not only that, but I'm also a sucker for the fact that such a friendship would also, kind of cheekily, play on how they're basically analogues for the T-800 and John Connor.
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Re: Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

Post by MR.Mark » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:49 am

It would be kinda neat if Gero somehow kidnapped number 8 as revenge, upgrading him into 16 to kill Goku. Gero modified 16's appearance to resemble his son, however number 8's gentle nature still lurked in 16's mind, so he was seen as a failure.

If Goku found out about this it would give both he and Gohan something to be sad about when Cell destroys 16.

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Re: Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

Post by Bear » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:37 am

Maybe make ChiChi a fighter, as well as increase the revileance of Yamucha, Tenshinhan and Chaozu.
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Re: Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

Post by MR.Mark » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:39 am

Bear wrote:Maybe make ChiChi a fighter.
Would this affect her role as a mother in anyway?

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Re: Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

Post by KBABZ » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:56 am

MR.Mark wrote:
Bear wrote:Maybe make ChiChi a fighter.
Would this affect her role as a mother in anyway?
Well she could attempt a fight with Goku! Chi-Chi being a fighter only seemed to come up when Goten mentions that she trains him while Gohan is at school, which I thought was fun. I think by saying "make her a fighter" the implication is that she can be more than just a stay at home mom who wants her little boy to study to the point of breaking all logic, even as part of a cartoon joke.

I personally would have some more continuity nods and references just to make the story flow from arc to arc more easily. Things like Roshi taking note of Goku's Nyoi-bo, Raditz perhaps hinting at Frieza's involvement with the Saiyan business, King Kai maybe taking a moment to explain how the Kais of the universe work to introduce that aspect earlier, etc. Basically make it seem a bit less like it was made up on the fly (which it was).

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Re: Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

Post by Bear » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:28 am

KBABZ wrote:
MR.Mark wrote:
Bear wrote:Maybe make ChiChi a fighter.
Would this affect her role as a mother in anyway?
Well she could attempt a fight with Goku! Chi-Chi being a fighter only seemed to come up when Goten mentions that she trains him while Gohan is at school, which I thought was fun. I think by saying "make her a fighter" the implication is that she can be more than just a stay at home mom who wants her little boy to study to the point of breaking all logic, even as part of a cartoon joke.

I personally would have some more continuity nods and references just to make the story flow from arc to arc more easily. Things like Roshi taking note of Goku's Nyoi-bo, Raditz perhaps hinting at Frieza's involvement with the Saiyan business, King Kai maybe taking a moment to explain how the Kais of the universe work to introduce that aspect earlier, etc. Basically make it seem a bit less like it was made up on the fly (which it was).
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Re: Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

Post by ABED » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:23 am

This isn't polishing, this isn't writing. It's armchair quarterbacking, which can be fun, but it's not sanding the rough edges. Writing is execution.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

Post by MR.Mark » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:36 am

KBABZ wrote:
MR.Mark wrote:
Bear wrote:Maybe make ChiChi a fighter.
Would this affect her role as a mother in anyway?
Well she could attempt a fight with Goku! Chi-Chi being a fighter only seemed to come up when Goten mentions that she trains him while Gohan is at school, which I thought was fun. I think by saying "make her a fighter" the implication is that she can be more than just a stay at home mom who wants her little boy to study to the point of breaking all logic, even as part of a cartoon joke.

I personally would have some more continuity nods and references just to make the story flow from arc to arc more easily. Things like Roshi taking note of Goku's Nyoi-bo, Raditz perhaps hinting at Frieza's involvement with the Saiyan business, King Kai maybe taking a moment to explain how the Kais of the universe work to introduce that aspect earlier, etc. Basically make it seem a bit less like it was made up on the fly (which it was).
I totally agree I guess I was being vague, she can still be a mom while being a fighter. I was just wondering how you guys would go about the idea if Chichi kept up in the fighting department.

Speaking of Nyoi-bo, it would be awesome to see Goku fight with it again. Since it has a God connection it could be worked into the story again.

Keep the ideas coming guys, there's certainly room for improvement in the series as much as I love it.

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Re: Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

Post by ABED » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:46 am

I can't believe that anyone has to say this, but you aren't improving the series. These are just ideas that will have no impact whatsoever on the show, and regardless, they are just ideas. If you can't execute them, they don't matter.
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Re: Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

Post by MR.Mark » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:10 am

Here's more:

The choice to use the Genkidama was obviously out of desperation, which logicaly, if there desperate to save there lives and there loved ones, bringing Gohan in would of been the smart thing to do. But Toriyama couldn't think of a way of getting Gohan involved and still keep Goku front and center.

Personally I would of made pure Buu stronger and have Gohan keep him busy while both Goku and Vegeta make there own Genki Dama (Vegeta comes up with the idea revealing that he learned the technique).

Gohan beats Buu down, throwing the weakened Buu between Goku and Vegeta, who then throw the attack, hitting Buu from both sides. The two Genkidamas then merge into one huge one, and explode, taking Buu with it.

I think that's a better idea than throwing logic out the window to give Goku the win. id also have Beerus show up after Buu's defeat as a cliffhanger. As all the nonsense got his attention and he was alerted by a vision of a Saiyan God.

Also how I'd improve the Cell acr:


Again, there is an advantage at times when you know the story in advance.

How about having 17 and 18 just activated in the main time line? That way they're more mysterious and we're not left with a evil 17 and 18 from Trunk's timeline, that are more evil, because...yeah it's just random.

Have 19 and 20 be the ones that Trunks ultimately goes back to and destroys for good along with Cell. Also for an added variety, have Trunks's conversation with Goku be spied on by one of Gero's robot drones.

Gero then in response to this threat makes extra ,less powerful androids for Yamcha and the others to deal with while also giving some consequences to Trunk's actions.

Krillin's decision to not destroy 18 would have a little more weight to it if we see him find out about her being kidnapped and being turned into a cyborg.

I'd make Cell a more calm villain. Being an artificial life form, you could make him simply not understand certain emotions. He can still understand what he is doing is wrong, but coldly aknowledge he must be the strongest, and when he achieves that, life is pointless, so he will destroy the universe. The times he get's the occasional beat down from characters he can act more confused over why it's happening rather than the typical apeshit response. He could also hint at a possibility of knowing of the multiverse and moving on to challenge any potential powerful beings when he's done with Earth.

Imagen how even more creepy first form Cell would be if he didn't do any typical maniacal laughs and such. Being to the point with his mission with the occasional BUEEEEE! sound, he'd be really scary.

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Re: Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

Post by TheSeductiveTomato » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:37 pm

I'd probably do away with the Pilaf Gang since I never cared for them. Goku & Dragon Squad would follow the radar to Muscle Tower instead of Pilaf Fortress, making Gen. White, with the help of Dr. Gero, the 1st big bads of the series. Gero's appearance now would make his introduction in the Android Arc less spontaneous. Gero would play a major would in setting up Muscle Tower and designing Android 8 and Metallitron. All the more reason to hate Goku when Muscle Tower and Metallitron are destroyed and Android 8 befriends his new sworn enemy.

After Roshi's training and the tournament, Goku goes on his dragon ball hunt and encounters the RRA. Gen. Blue, Commander Red, Tao, and officer Black (played by Samuel L. Jackson of course) would remain intact, but Dr. Gero appears once again at HQ with his son that Android 16 is based off of. Gero Jr. dies defending HQ, Gero escapes once again with more fuel for his hate boner toward Goku.

This leads him to do something drastic, such as releasing a thousand year old Demon King onto the world to aid him in his attempt to destroy Goku. Piccolo betrays him of course, as he betrayed Pilaf Gang in the original. Now Gero swears vengeance on Goku and Piccolo. He lays low for 10 or so years, rebuilding his lab and scheming.

As for Piccolo Jr, I like OP's idea. King Piccolo manages to embed the objective of killing Goku and his overwhelming hatred into his offspring's brain. To do this, Piccolo Sr. uses some sort of demonic sorcery to implant a part of him into Jr.'s mind. However, since King isn't around to directly order Jr. around, he's more likely to become his own man. Perhaps an old couple discovers him in the woods and raises him, making him a parallel to Goku. To further this parallel, Piccolo Jr. is filled with a desire to harm and destroy, just like Goku was due to his Sayain programming. His time spent with the adopted parents waters down his hatred into just mere rudeness and a short temper. However, he can't shake his unquenchable desire to destroy Goku. In the final tournament, Piccolo shows less interest in world domination. He's merciful toward his opponents in the preliminaries and Krillin save for Kami (whom he also feels a passionate hate toward) and Goku.

After his defeat, Goku rescues him from the brink of death. Due to this act of mercy, he overcomes his hatred enough to make a promise to leave Goku and his friends alone. He then retreats into the wasteland to meditate and overcome the brainwashing of his father. That is, until Raditz arrives and Piccolo is forced to forge an alliance with Goku. Piccolo feels he finally has a chance to live up to his father's expectations when Goku opts to sacrifice himself. However, killing Goku didn't have the satisfying effect he had hoped for. This leads to further development in straying from the path his father has sent for him. The final nail in the coffin of King Piccolo's influence is training Gohan and sacrificing himself. This removes the stain on Jr.'s soul, making him free to be his own man at last.

Rewind to Raditz, I'd make him less "evil" and more neutral, conquering planets because it's just a way of living for the Saiyan race and because it's necessary to make a profit and make Frieza happy. He doesn't find joy in killing for the sake of killing, but he has no problem with it either. Vegeta is arrogant and only cares about strength, still shows no mercy whatsoever to his opponents (or allies). Nappa remains as chaotic as ever, getting off of killing and destruction.

Other minor changes:
-Tien, Yamcha, and Chiaoztu don't show up in the afterlife. Piccolo does, as Kami gets special treatment and Piccolo is one-in-the-same with Kami, making them a packaged deal. They travel to King Kai's together in order to maintain contact with the living world. Death may still be reversible, but this way it feels like there's some consequence to it. Piccolo can still communicate his desired to be wished to Namek to aid in the fight with Frieza. Lastly, this explains why Tien and Yamcha learn absolutely jack shit from King Kai.

-Vegeta still gets his ass handed to him by Recoome, but manages to catch him off guard and kill him. This gives Jeice & Burter a chance to actually fight with Krillin & Gohan instead of just playing tag with Goku.

-1st form Cell would be a mindless blood-thirsty monster, no sense of emotion or dialogue whatsoever. This makes Piccolo's fight with him more mysterious and frightening. It's not until Trunks and Krillin raid Gero's lab and find the plans to an experiment titled "Cell" and learn what the creature is and that its mission is to find 17 and 18. After absorbing 17, however, Cell evolves past his monstrous-like qualities and learns to walk and talk like a human being.

-Android 16 would be a dark attempt to "revive" Gero's son, using his preserved corpse, which showcases Gero's deteriorating insanity. Since the original 16/Gero Jr./Reggie (he looks like he'd be a Reggie to me) was killed, Gero has to reprogram an entirely new personality, or simply replicate that of the original, who was a big softy that had a love for birds and bird watching, but joined the RRA because his father wanted him to, in order to "toughen him up" or something. This explains why Android 16 is a pacifist. One modification to Reggie's original personality is the desire to murder Goku, so Gero's master plan would be to avenge his son's death using his son's replica. Gero intended to give 16 a sense of identity to make him believe that he is Reggie, the son of Gero. Unfortunately, Gero never got around to that which explains his defensiveness when 17 and 18 activate him.

-Lastly, Androids 17 and 18 were teens who Gero abducted and transformed into androids, but ultimately they would've served only to aid Android 16. However, he was unable to erase their original personalities due to them still being alive and having minds of their own. This renders them "failed experiments" until Gero comes up with Cell. He intended to leave 17 and 18 in storage until Cell was ready, but activated them out of pure desperation and lack of awareness of how powerful he truly made them.

Got a little carried away, but once I got started the ideas just kept flowing. :oops:

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Re: Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:01 pm

MR.Mark wrote:
Personally I would of made pure Buu stronger and have Gohan keep him busy while both Goku and Vegeta make there own Genki Dama (Vegeta comes up with the idea revealing that he learned the technique).

Gohan beats Buu down, throwing the weakened Buu between Goku and Vegeta, who then throw the attack, hitting Buu from both sides. The two Genkidamas then merge into one huge one, and explode, taking Buu with it.
2 Spirit Bombs is overkill. Goku doing it is plenty; Vegeta can still come up with the idea.

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Re: Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

Post by precita » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:33 pm

Realistically speaking most of the Dragonball cast sans Bulma, Roshi and Krillin should have largely been written out ala Launch overtime since we know how little impact they made in DBZ onward. In the Radditz episodes the only main cast we see at first in DBZ is Goku, Bulma, Krillin and Roshi, and that's how it should have stayed.

Characters like Oolong, Puar, Karin, Yajirobe, Yamcha, Tien/Chaiotzu all generally had their "last hurrahs" in the Saiyan saga, and after the transition to Namek could have been phased out. And by that I mean simply not show them anymore like how 17 disappeared after the Cell saga for the majority of the series. Maybe only show up for anniversary stuff.

Dragonball has a huge cast that constantly adds new main characters with every arc, but the mistake is continually keeping the old ones around and then doing absolutely nothing with them.

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Re: Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

Post by MR.Mark » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:57 am

Dbzfan94 wrote:
MR.Mark wrote:
Personally I would of made pure Buu stronger and have Gohan keep him busy while both Goku and Vegeta make there own Genki Dama (Vegeta comes up with the idea revealing that he learned the technique).

Gohan beats Buu down, throwing the weakened Buu between Goku and Vegeta, who then throw the attack, hitting Buu from both sides. The two Genkidamas then merge into one huge one, and explode, taking Buu with it.
2 Spirit Bombs is overkill. Goku doing it is plenty; Vegeta can still come up with the idea.
Then what about Gohan? Does he fight Buu with Vegeta? If you're going to dispute my ideas you should add your own ideas to back it up.

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Re: Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:53 am

MR.Mark wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
MR.Mark wrote:
Personally I would of made pure Buu stronger and have Gohan keep him busy while both Goku and Vegeta make there own Genki Dama (Vegeta comes up with the idea revealing that he learned the technique).

Gohan beats Buu down, throwing the weakened Buu between Goku and Vegeta, who then throw the attack, hitting Buu from both sides. The two Genkidamas then merge into one huge one, and explode, taking Buu with it.
2 Spirit Bombs is overkill. Goku doing it is plenty; Vegeta can still come up with the idea.
Then what about Gohan? Does he fight Buu with Vegeta? If you're going to dispute my ideas you should add your own ideas to back it up.
No need to be rude. And yeah, Gohan can fight Buu with Vegeta. If Kid Buu is stronger than it would be a more even fight.

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Re: Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

Post by MR.Mark » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:16 pm

I wasn't rude, I asked you to contribute to the topic.

I personally think Vegeta and Gohan fighting Buu is overkill unless you want Buu really OP.

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Re: Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:22 pm

MR.Mark wrote:I wasn't rude, I asked you to contribute to the topic.

I personally think Vegeta and Gohan fighting Buu is overkill unless you want Buu really OP.
It just seemed snarky, that's all. Have Buu be OP then. You think that's overkill but 2 Spirit Bombs isn't?

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Re: Knowing the story in advance: let's polish it

Post by MR.Mark » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:27 pm

Just being upfront, no snark.

Anyway, I see two genkidama as just being a more flashy finish giving both Goku and Vegeta a killing blow at once for a change.

Plus Gohan can have the final hand to hand with Kid Buu, just seems more varied with variety.

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