Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

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Lord Beerus
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Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:50 pm

Funny how plans change. I was going to take the task of tackling Z first, but for the sake of consistency of following the original story, I’ll tackle the first Dragon Ball anime, well as the manga portion that is adapted from it, and then dive into Z. It’ll be the same thing as my personal assessment of GT. Scattered opinions, notes and thoughts of each arc.

A few things to note:
- I will not be taking into consideration any supplementary material. That includes guidebooks, interviews, or power levels given in comics like WSJ or V-Jump
- I’m going to be assessing the original manga here and there too, alongside the anime, so that I can have a better context of how the story is structed and flows.
- I will not be watching the dub. And it’s for the same reason I didn’t want to partake into the dub of GT when I binged on that show again: I want to view the show with how it was originally intended from a writing and performance perspective.

Now without further ado… let’s rock… the Dragon. (Sorry, couldn’t help it.)

Hunt for the Dragon Balls:
[spoiler]- Goku and Bulma make very good first impressions. Goku is a young country bumpkin and a martial artist and Bulma is big city girl who interact with the world in surprisingly grounded way. She also acts as if she ain’t got time for none of this of this shit, but also has big, if not also superficial, ambitions. I’m really digging these two characters.
- The beginning of this arc is wonderfully charming. You get a sense that Toriyama’s whimsy and pure sense of adventure and comedy from Dr Slump is oozing and creeping its way into Dragon Ball
- The Pilaf Gang much earlier in the anime than they do in the manga. But their introduction, in the anime, albeit being filler, is pretty damn funny.
- So those capsules can store bikes and even houses? Ha. That’s great.
- The chemistry that Goku and Bulma have is wonderfully instantaneous. The dynamics of their characters (which are absolute opposites of one another) bounce off of each other so well that you’d think they’ve known each other for years and not just met one anther just a few days ago.
- Son Goku is such a wonderfully innocent and charming child. He can watch me have bath anytime… wait a minute…
- The “No Balls” gag is hysterical.
- Everything about the Bear Bandit is great. Goku using a marital variant of Rock-Paper-Scissors to defeat him is just the icing on the cake.
- “Who put all the salt in the water?!!” HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I can tell Toriyama had a lot fun writing Goku at this stage in the story.
- Roshi makes an amazing first impression: “Come to me… Immortal Pheonix!!!” Ha!
- Roshi’s pervy antics early on give me a damn good laugh. They have a certain charm to them that no-one other than Toriyama can really handle appropriately.
- Shunsuke Kikuchi’s score is just perfect.
- Goku: “What’s an ‘undies’”? Bulma: “THESE!!!!” Goku: “Oh yeah. I took ‘em off you.” Now I’m certain that Goku and Bulma are the Odd Couple reincarnated. They have flawless chemistry.
- Goku just touched a young kid’s crotch to double check that she was girl… I must question whether a gag like that would have been acceptable in this day and age. But Goku is such a delightfully innocent character and Toriyama’s style of humour is so off-the-wall, wacky and dense, that I can’t help but laugh every time he does it.
- Oolong transforms into whatever he pleases, Goku becomes a transvestite and Bulma is n heat. Awesome.
- Goku: “So why don’t you have Oolong turn into a dyke?” HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
- The anime is extremely well paced.
- Everything about Episode 4 is great.
- Here’s Yamcha… during somewhat better days.
- Goku’s fight with Yamcha is incredibly entertaining. Even more so in the manga, where a panel is literally broken because of sheer epic scale of the fight. (Being facetious)
- Yamcha extreme phobia of women produces some of funniest moments in story so far.
- Bulma + Bunny Outfit = A particular set of dreams
- Episode 8 produces one of the best Kamehameha’s I’ve ever seen.
- I never would have though that a talking pig constantly shitting himself when he hears a specific catcall would be one of the best running gags I’ve ever come across in any story, but… here we are.
- Ox King has arrived. And I don’t really care that much for him.
- Shunsuke Kikuchi’s score is just perfect.
- The show really could us a good central threat right about now…
- The Pilaf Gang arrives, and the plot finally moves into second gear.
- The Pilaf Gang are fantastic gag villains.
- I can’t shake the feeling that Ox King and Yamcha, in another universe, would have been the perfect central antagonists for a Dragon Ball story.
- Chapter 19 (of the manga) has one of the best fourth wall breaking gag I’ve ever seen. It’s such a shame it doesn’t get adapted in the anime.
- A wish for panties and the main character has become a giant monkey. Only in Dragon Ball.
- The arc wraps ups in simple and good-natured fashion and the foundation has been laid very well for future adventures.[/spoiler]
Thought’s on the arc:
What a delightful opening arc. Great gag humour, a brilliantly diverse and surprisingly fleshed out cast, extremely well-paced (in both the anime and manga), the filler that was inserted into the anime didn’t feel out of place. I think the best part of this arc is that it sold me on Dragon Ball’s story. Because my first taste of the Dragon Ball world gave me the sense that it’s that feels packed to the brim with wonder, adventure and whimsy, and I want more from it. Two big thumbs up for the first arc. – 8/10

21st Tenkaichi Budokai:
[spoiler]- Goku’s escapade of him finding an attractive woman for Roshi so he can train him are just the greatest thing ever. I miss when Roshi’s perverted antics had charm and genuine hilarity to them.
- Goku has a new rival? This should be interesting. Welcome to the show, Krillin.
- Lunch make decent impression. But I have feeling her gag will wear out thin much quicker.
- I didn’t think scenario like a woman whose personality changes when she sneezes, and old man and two young boys all wearing lingerie could make for an exceptionally entraining episode, but here we are. Great stuff.
- These training episodes are just amazing. They have the perfect blend of authentic martial arts, comedy and unadulterated charm that you’d only expect from an enthusiastic gag mangaka like Toriyama and an anime staff team who know how to translate his style of humour well into a visceral form. Episode 19 deserves a special shout out. It’s the best episode so far in the anime.
- Shunsuke Kikuchi’s score is just perfect.
- The preliminaries matches are just great. But highlight how much Dragon Ball likes to use and quickly dispose characters to make the main cast look great in comparison.
- The Bruce Lee look-a-like martial artist is a disgrace.
- Kirllin getting his own back against the Orin Temple bullies was great.
- It’s wonderful seeing Krillin’s character softening up
- The first martial tournament of the show is off to a great start.
- So Ranfan’s ace-in-the-hole ability for when she’s backed in a corner of a fight is to… take off her clothes. So many unfortunate implications there.
- They really love replaying Nam’s “tragic” backstory, don’t they?
- Man, this fight between Goku and Giran just really getting go- Oh. Giran’s given up. Never mind. Giran is a disgrace.
- Jackie Chun’s song and dance routine are just ridiculous… and I loved every second of the it.
- Shunsuke Kikuchi’s score is just perfect.
- The elaboration of what transpired when Roshi and Krillin clashed in that fraction of second/moment is glorious.
- Goku vs Roshi was one hell of a fight
- Episode 28 epitomizes everything wonderful about Dragon Ball.
- Goku vs Roshi was a phenomenal fight a fantastic conclusion to a great arc.[/spoiler]
Thought’s on the arc:
This tournament was sensational. It’s Dragon Ball in its purest form with it unfiltered focus on martial arts, it shout-outs to old-school Kung Fu movies from the 70s and 80s, wacky and dense comedy and subtle character growth. Fantastic tournament arc. Two big thumbs up. – 9/10

Red Ribbon Army:
[spoiler]- And we break out streak of episodes ranging from good to great with Episode 29. It’s sad to
- see the premise of an entire village of an entire village of Girans being wasted like that.
- More filler bullshit. Yawn.
- After five episodes of pure filler nonsense, the plot finally kickstarts. And it’s good.
- Hang on a second… only eight months have passed since the last time the Dragon Balls were gathered, meaning that the Dragon Balls should appear as round stones, shouldn’t they? Plot hole? I think so.
- Shunsuke Kikuchi’s score is just perfect.
- Metallic makes one hell of an impression with damn good fight with Goku.
- Ninja Murasaki being sodomized by Goku’s Nyoibo made me fall out of chair laughing. Really funny shit.
- Android 8 just committed the quickest Heel-Face turn in the history of fiction. Hmm. I don’t really care much the character, so whatever.
- The arc is being unnecessarily dragged out in the anime. It even more of slog compared to how breezy the plot in the manga is moving. So much filler is being entwined into this arc. And unlike the previous arcs, it’s not good filler either. Like, who the hell wants to know about Husky?!
- Nice to see Bulma’s parents. And they’re good characters.
- Episode 49 marks the main plot getting back into proper motion. It’s about damn time. The arc was staring to get boring.
- Holy shit… Lunch is contributing something of importance to the plot?! It’s a miracle!
- The hijinks of the Pirate Treasure Cave are spectacular. The highpoint of the entire arc so far.
- Krillin has become a very likable character. Before this arc, I was somewhat indifferent about him but he’s grown on me. I think it’s due to him becoming less of a character who’s specifically designated as Goku’s rival and more of his own character that reacts to his surrounding’s more independently.
- The Dr Slump gang are here! And they’re a real hoot! Unfortunately, if you’re not a fan of the kind of humour that the world of Dr Slump provides, you may not like this Episode 56. And question why an episode like this needs to exist.
- The lengths that Roshi will go to living up to his characterisation of being the “dirty/pervy old man” are getting annoying. Because at this stage it’s just a waste of time as it’s not even funny anymore. I mean, shrinking himself just so that he could take a peek at Bulma using the toilet? That’s not charming or even comical in the sense of toilet humour. That’s just fucking disgusting.
- The pacing of this arc is incredibly uneven (in the anime).
- Tao Pai Pai has the best debut episode for any character in Dragon Ball so far. He killed a man with his fucking lounge, threw a broken pillar in the air and rode on it as transport, and then killed a jacked Native American with his own spear. How can you top that!?
- Tao Pai Pai is fucking badass. He commands a presence.
- One of the world’s wisest and oldest martial artists is a short, fat, white cat whose eyes won’t ever open… never change Dragon Ball. Never. Change.
- Shunsuke Kikuchi’s score is just perfect.
- Goku’s training with Korin is surprisingly… dull. Hmm. I don’t know, but something about just doesn’t pique my interest about it. I think it’s just because I don’t find Korin that interesting of a character. Oh well. Not all of Toriyama’s characters can be winners, I guess.
- So, the Sacred Water was just a red herring? And the strength Goku gained is from the exercise exerted from climbing the tower and taking the bottle from Korin? Awesome twist.
- Goku vs Tao Pai Pai Part 3 is the best of the trilogy.
- Man, this arc is still going on. I mean, it’s not bad, but it just feels like the arc is taking one too many detours.
- Violet is one of the smarter Dragon Ball character I’ve come across. She cut her loses, empties out the Red Ribbon Army vault of all its money and jewels and takes off. She has a wise head on those shoulders.
- Commander Red motivations are petty but are also quite relatable.
- Staff Officer Black is a really good villain. He deeply cares for his allies, he is reasonable and level-headed and doesn’t put up with any bullshit. Makes you wonder why he didn’t shot Commander Red sooner than he did.
- I love how the supporting cast show up after the major conflict is over to help Goku with taking on the Red Ribbon Army.[/spoiler]Thought’s on the arc:
This was a very inconsistent arc. The narrative would move at a tolerable pace before slowing down to crawl with either drawn out fights or needless filler meshed into the main plot. But on the flip side, the Dragon Ball world has never felt vaster and fleshed out. And that ironically is due in part to some of the filler that was inserted into the arc at times. Overall, this was still a good arc, but I feel it could have been at least 10-15 episodes shorter with better direction in the anime. The pacing of this arc in the manga was infinitely better. – 7.5/10

Uranai Baba:
[spoiler]- Gotta find that Dragon Ball… again
- A five on five elimination style tournament? This sounds interesting
- Episode 70 is fucking hysterical. Count Dracula is a riot. And this is the most productive Puar has been in a battle so far.
- More pure, wonderful silliness with the Invisible Man, Roshi’s perverse and Bulma’s tits. (Which the anime cut and the manga censored by giving her a bra. Bunch of pussies.)
- This tournament so far is way more entertaining that it has any right to be.
- Upa posing as a crucifix to intimidate Count Dracula was ingenious.
- Episode 75 is a series highpoint with its great fight and shock revelation
- Shunsuke Kikuchi’s score is just perfect.
- The reunion of Goku and Grandpa Gohan is one of the more heart-warming moments in the entirety of Dragon Ball. I got a tear in my eye.
- The Pilaf Gangs are back! Hooray! I missed those guys.
- Great tournament overall. Really wasn’t expecting to be so entertained this much by a boxing vampire, an invisible man, a guy dressed like the devil and a mummy. But there you go.
- The conclusion to this arc really gives off the vibe the story could end at this moment. And quite frankly, if it were to, I’d be okay with that.[/spoiler]
Thoughts on the arc:
This arc may have been basically a gloried epilogue of the Red Ribbon arc, but, holy shit, they jam packed this arc with so much great content it’s unbelievable. The arc had fantastic fights, Toriyama’s trademark visual gag humour and one of the melancholic moments in all of Dragon Ball with the return of Grandpa Gohan. It’s astounding how well Dragon Ball could tell a good story in just nine episodes. A wonderful hidden gem of an arc, that really deserves so much more attention and love. 8.5/10

Goku’s Solo Training Journey (Anime filler):
[spoiler]- More Journey To The West references with Ginkaku and Kinkaku. I appreciate this very much. Keeping Dragon Ball deep in its martial arts roots as well as paying more homage to story that it started off parodying.
- Shunsuke Kikuchi’s score is just perfect.
- Tein and Chiaotzu make their debut much earlier the story through this mini filler arc. And I like a lot more how their introduced into the story compared to how they dropped right into the thick of the plot just before the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai kicks off.
- Baby InoShikaCho is the cutest thing ever.
- Providing some backstory for Roshi and Crane Hermit really helps lay the foundation for their rivalry later on the story and makes underling theme of one martial arts school facing another more palpable.[/spoiler]
Thoughts on the arc:
I was very satisfied with this mini-filler arc. Not just because the episodes were solid overall, but this was the kind of filler that expanded on an area that I feel Toriyama left needlessly blank and vague. Being able to see the kind of journeys that Goku makes in his progress to becoming the strongest martial artist possible makes the end result feel all the more palpable.

The filler episodes don’t overstay its welcome, expands on the world of Dragon Ball from where its left open in the manga and even managed to introduce some of the central characters that were planned to feature in a later arc in more seamless manner. Why can’t all filler in Dragon Ball animes be always like this? C’est la vie. 8/10

22nd Tenkaichi Budokai:
[spoiler]- The preliminaries to these tournaments are always so much damn fun.
- Tien’s debut in the manga just felt a bit too “Enter, Stage Right” for my liking. Especially given that he’s going the be the major antagonist of this tournament arc. I feel the anime introduced Tien better into the plot by having him debut in the anime before the tournament started. Plus, the tidbits of Tien’s harsh training under the tutelage of She lay the foundation much better for him to become a sympathetic character.
- Tien is the most savage martial artist in the story since Tao Pai Pai. His match with Yamcha... brutal. I really like this guy as an antagonist already.
- Roshi’s “fight” with Man-Wolf had me in hysterics. A silly and dumb fight, but my God, is was entertaining as fuck.
- Chiaotzu abilities are cool but he seems like a bit of blank slate in terms of personality.
- Never would have thought that math would win in a fight. Pretty ingenious strategy employed by Krillin to defeat Chiaotzu that way.
- The Ninja Crane Hermit filler was unnecessarily tacked on.
- Pamput has to be the most disappointing martial artist in the story so far. Which is really saying something.
- The art style in the manga has become far more refined and detailed in this arc. I mean, the art style had always been distinctive and attractive from the beginning, but with the arc the presentation of the story feels more vibrant. Not mention the fights are panelled better as well.
- Half of the fight between Roshi and Tien is filler. And unfortunately, it’s not good filler.
- Once they get to adapting the material from the manga, the fight suddenly becomes a lot better. No coincidence at all.
- Shunsuke Kikuchi’s score is just perfect.
- I really enjoyed the angle of Roshi giving up when he realised just how much of challenge Tien is and forfeits his match in faith that new generation of fighters can more than handle themselves. Tien’s introspective of the whole scenario was more layered than I thought it would be.
- Episode 96 has some of the best fight choreography I’ve seen in any Dragon Ball anime. Seriously, watch this episode. It should serve as template for how Dragon Ball fights in the anime must be directed, animated and storyboarded.
- Goku and Krillin’s fight was excellent and a brilliant showcase of Krillin’s subtle character development, as well as his relationship with Goku blossoming rival to good friend.
- Tien’s Volleyball Fist is a stroke of genius.
- Tien’s internal conflict in character is just fantastic. It’s the best part of this arc. It’s so well done.
- Roshi blasting Shen with a Kamehameha was amazing.
- Best. Kikoho. Ever.
- The ending of the Goku/Tien match was a load of nonsense. Unpredictable, but nonsense.
- And just like that, Lunch is in love with Tien. Huh. Looks like she really likes savage men. That.. actually fits Blonde Lunch’s personality to a fucking T.[/spoiler]
Thoughts on the arc:
I have often viewed this as the weakest tournament arc in all of Dragon Ball in the past. But it’s actually quite fantastic. In fact, I think it’s the second-best tournament arc in Dragon Ball’s original story.

The underlining theme of two martial schools was really well done. But what I’ve really come to appreciate the most is how well Tien works an antagonist and how well his character is developed. He went for a cocky, arrogant, head strong martial artist, who, though a wonderfully motivating speech from Roshi, he realised there more to life than aspiring to becoming an assassin. And after witnessing just how much of broken pedestal he was worshipping in Master Shen, he decided to commit himself to defeating Goku with his own strength.

Tien really came across as a deeply mislead and misguided martial artist who then had an epiphany curtesy of an encounter with a much older and wiser martial artist who saw something in Tien that he didn’t initially see in himself. Dragon Ball never really has a lot of those moments of serious self-assessment from the characters while the story was going on, so it was to nice to see it on display and in such a surprising amount of depth.

Add in the fantastic preliminary fights, the show stealing Goku/Krillin bout and a thrilling final battle between Goku and Tien and this arc was great stuff all around. Extra bonus points for Hirotaka Suzuoki’s sensational performance as Tien. The only really negative I can think of about this arc is that the ending of the fight between Goku and Tien was pretty dumb. But it doesn’t bring down the arc or even the fight between Goku and Tien itself by any means. This arc has aged tremendously well. I really took this tournament arc for granted. It’s awesome. - 9.5/10

Piccolo Daimao:
[spoiler]- A shocking death of a central character, a fantastic flashback of Mutaito and brilliant filler infused into the lore of Dragon Ball makes this sensational debut episode for the arc.
- King Piccolo makes one hell of first impression.
- Tambourine is a far more intimidating character in the anime with how we see him go about slaughtering all the best martial artists in the last ten years (in-universe). It’s a shame the manga largely skips over this.
- Okay, Roshi’s pervy antics are starting get old now…
- Yajirobe is here and he’s… not really that interesting. I mean, his interactions with Goku are good, but Goku has such a uniquely charming character that he could have good interactions with any character in story. Yajirobe, on his own devices, is very bland character
- The fight between Yajirobe and Cymbal was full of fake tension. Cymbal seems to pose a threat to Yajirobe, but in reality, Cymbal was no threat at all because Yajirobe just easily kills him with a single slash of his sword.
- Shunsuke Kikuchi’s score is just perfect.
- Goku beating up and killing Tambourine felt much more cathartic in the anime then it did in the manga because Tambourine felt like a much larger and dominating threat in the anime. And that’s really all due to the anime adding much more emphasis on Tambourine’s killing spree of the Earth’s greatest martial artists. It’s those kinds of details that make the villain getting his comeuppance all the more satisfying and gratifying to watch. Good job, Toei.
- Hmm. King Piccolo is not really that of interesting villain. His pragmatic approach towards his goal is good to see, but there really isn’t much to chew onto in terms of a personality.
- And even more fake tension as Goku fights King Piccolo. This is even worse than when Yajirobe fought Cymbal. Goku is beating up King Piccolo, and then Piccolo dusts himself off, takes off his cloak and now all of a sudden he’s beating Goku to death with ease. I don’t get it. What changed for the tide in battle to swing in the way it did so radically? Why give the idea the protagonist can hold his own against the major antagonist, when he reality, he has no chances of winning? Don’t have the antagonist in a situation where he/she is on the back foot in a fight, and in response, doesn’t have to do anything to completely turn the battle in their face. And applying the whole “I’ll fight you at full power” card, doesn’t work in this case for me because Piccolo is depicted as a pragmatic fighter, so why should he be surprised that Goku, a character he knows is very strong, one of the world’s best martial artists and killed one of his powerful off-spring, would be as strong as he is just makes him come across as less of a pragmatic martial artist and more of a needlessly arrogant fool.
- Hang on a second… Goku’s heart stopped beating, but then it started beating again all of sudden? What. How? That must be the biggest load of bullshit I’ve seen in Dragon Ball yet. When a heart stops beating, it doesn’t suddenly start beating again on its own again. Even going by Dragon Ball’s outlandish nature, that’s fucking impossible. Goku should be dead. No ifs, no buts, no maybe’s. Goku should be a fucking corpse. Fuck all this nonsense. Fuck it right in the ear.
- I think Tien was better antagonist than King Piccolo. Tien at least has his underlining redemption arc which wonderfully moulded and developed his character. And his fights were better. King Piccolo has nothing going for him other than he acts a little smarter than most Dragon Ball villains.
- Roshi’s big moment in the arc was to fail and die. Not really much of a moment to look back on fondly.
- A villain actually accomplishing his/her goal is something that very rarely happens in Dragon Ball and I’m glad that to see that angle play out.
- Chiaotzu’s death is treated in a very low-key manner.
- Roshi is dead, Chiaotzu is dead, Shenlong is dead and Dragon Balls are now stone. Now this is real tension.
- King Piccolo is so generically evil that it’s not even “So Bad, It’s Good”, it just painfully boring.
- King Piccolo coup d'état is really entertaining to watch: “Wh-Who are you? No one enters without the permission of the king!” “I am the king.” Best line in this arc from King Piccolo. He’s still pretty dull, though.
- King Piccolo just wiped out a city by flexing his muscle. That was pretty cool.
- I hate how there is suddenly this magic elixir that will give Goku the power to defeat King Piccolo. Why was this “Super God Water” never brought up when Goku first climbed Korin’s Tower? He sure as hell could have used that magic elixir on that occasion when Tao Pai Pai defeated him instead of that phony Sacred Holy Water bullshit. I also don’t buy for a fucking second that Goku will die from drinking it. This guy was able to recover from his fucking heart stopping. He’ll be okay.
- Takeshi Aono is sensational as King Piccolo.
- Masako Nozawa really steps up her game as Goku. I mean, she was always great as Goku but she takes it took another level in this arc.
- Episodes 115 and 116 are some of the high point of the arc. It makes the quest for the Super God Water feel more grand and important, compared to incredibly low-key it felt in the manga. Not to mention the great animation that Episode 116 has.
- I love that the King Of The World is some stubby humanoid cat that wears a suit.
- King Piccolo is Card Carrying Villain-incarnate. He couldn’t be more stereotypically evil if he tried. Some people may like this. I don’t. At all.
- Artwork in the manga for this portion of the story is stunning
- Of course, a world of nothing but hate and terror doesn’t sound bad to (Blonde) Lunch…
- I’m very happy the anime is giving a much better perspective of how much the world is going to shit with King Piccolo in absolute power. The cities evacuating en masse, prisoners being released, the soldiers having to kill Ox King, as part of his plan to get rid of all of the worlds strongest martial artists under King Piccolo’s order, or face death… I dig these kinds of additions to the story. The manga fails to really provide a proper perceptive that King Piccolo is having an effective on the world after staging his hostile takeover.
- I’m happy the anime made Tien less of idiot by having the Electric Rice Cooker in a capsule and not being able to use it because of Drum interfering, instead of him taking a cracked Electric Rice Cooker and only noticing it was cracked just seconds before he was going to use it on King Piccolo.
- Goku taking out Drum just… amazing.
- I don’t know why this seems to be the case but, outside of tournaments, the supporting cast just seem so… directionless. Like, they have no real purpose in the plot and are glorified extras 90% of the time when a tournament isn't happening. And the recurring gag of the supporting cast of the likes of Yamcha, Bulma, Oolong, Roshi and Lunch, arriving to help Goku with the central threat, only to arrive after the central plot of the arc has already concluded, just hammers home this point.
- King Piccolo has Goku at his mercy with Tien as a hostage and he just blows rocks at Goku? What? Why doesn’t he blast Goku with other hand?
- Gah! And King Piccolo doesn’t even break all of Goku’s limbs from blowing all those rocks at him?!
- Gah!! King Piccolo doesn’t kill Tien on spot right there!? Why!?
- GAH!!! And King Piccolo choses to fly off into the air and dive towards Goku to kill him instead of walking towards and blasting him at a close proximity!? Fucking moron.
- Goku penetrating through King Piccolo’s chest with his fist is a moment that every Dragon Ball fan should witness. It’s a franchise highlight.[/spoiler]
Thoughts on the arc:
The Piccolo Daimao arc hasn’t aged well. King Piccolo just isn’t an interesting villain in terms of personality. The best thing about King Piccolo is the lore behind him. And when a villain’s background is more interesting than his actions in the progressing story, then you have a real problem with your antagonist. I made this comment back during the notes and opinions of the arc as I was watching the anime and reading the manga, and I stand by it: Tien was a better antagonist than King Piccolo. He may not have had a presence as large and/or as an intimidating as King Piccolo, but his development and characterisation as far better handled, despite having much less screen time than King Piccolo. I could actually get invested into his story and what he was going do to. Can’t say the same for King Piccolo. King Piccolo couldn’t be more stereotypically evil if he tried. He was like a villain out of a James Bond movie. A bad James Bond movie.

I think the biggest issue I have with the King Piccolo arc is that the arc felt very forced with its events and there was too much too much fake tension in this arc. Goku was a threat to Piccolo… oh wait, he was never a threat because Piccolo forgot to take off his cloak before fighting. Goku’s heart has stopped and is dead… oh wait, his heart is magically beating again, so he’ll be fine. King Piccolo still needs to find the other Dragon Balls, so I wonder what will happen in his quest to find them… oh wait, Roshi just told him where they are. King Piccolo is invincible, and no one can stop him… oh wait, Goku just drank a special water and now he can beat King Piccolo.

I think the worst case of fake tension in this arc, and the entire story, was Goku’s Cardiac Arrest Ex Machina. I’m sorry, but that was bad, bad, bad storytelling. Don’t create such a dire situation if you’re immediately going to negate the stakes of it, especially with such a contrived reason. It’s pointless drama. It would have been much more effective if Goku stayed dead, or better yet, the story doesn’t go out of its way to tell you Goku’s heart has stopped. Keep that kind of shit as ambiguous as you can. Because you immediately put yourself in a situation, in a narrative sense, because any situation where Goku manages survives the scenario feel completely unbelievable. And as such, you can’t buy into the drama or stakes of the story because you feel emotionally detached from the narrative due to the unexplained and nonsensical circumstances of the main character managing to overcome his most dire state. What’s stopping from Roshi from just popping back up and saying that he was playing dead from failing to seal King Piccolo with the Mafuba? What’s preventing Chiaotzu from coming back to life by miraculously by restarting his own heart after getting blasted by King Piccolo? Or Krillin from waking up after his brain managed to repair itself from the damage caused from Tambourine’s attack that killed him instantly? My suspension of disbelief in this story is gone because of that moment. It may seem extreme to say that, especially for a story that is as far detached from reality as Dragon Ball is, but that shit was all so fucking terrible that I can’t just turn a blind eye to it. Form this point on, whenever I see something that is so fucking preposterous that only Dragon Ball is capable of, I was say the following statement (after stating the absurd scenario I just witnessed):

“That’s just Dragon Ball, for better or for worse, being Dragon Ball.”

I will give the anime credit for covering for Tien stupid ass with the whole Mafuba jar scenario that occurred with how it did in the manga. And Goku vs King Piccolo, in both fights, were very well animated. The performances of Takeshi Aono and Masako Nozawa also deserve special mention. But even with the anime’s additional material, which coincidently created a few pacing issues, I just can’t help but feel like the story of this arc was a bit directionless. The whole focus was that the Mafuba was the key to defeating King Piccolo, but that never went anywhere as Roshi failed horribly and Tien colossally fucked up (manga)/never got the chance to use the Mafuba (anime). Then you have King Piccolo’s reign of terror as King Of The World not really changing the plot in any significant fashion or having any lasting effect.

This arc was not as good as I remembered it to be. At all. Sorry folks, the arc sucks. – 3.5/10

Heavenly Training (+Anime filler):
[spoiler]- The aftermath of the King Piccolo’s terror is handled very well.
- I miss when training with the likes of Mister Popo and Kami were considered a big deal.
- Goku become Marty McFly and goes Back To The Future. But it’s nowhere near as interesting as it should be. You’d think an episode that has Young Roshi, Shen and Mutaito in his prime would make for a compelling episode, but its unfortunately a slog.
- Doll Goku is disturbing to look at…
- Ugh. These filler episodes are not good. Like… at all.[/spoiler]
Thoughts on the arc:
This was one of those cases where was filler added into the plot doesn’t really expand the narrative in constructive or natural fashion. Episodes 123 to 126, coincidently the episodes that have material adapted from the manga, are good on their own, but it’s downhill after that. I will always appreciate the anime filling the gaps left in the manga from one time period of the end of an arc to the time period of the beginning of the next arc. But these episodes, that were created to do that job, failed to be anything of any real interest. Whether it be world building or giving the supporting cast something to do. A very uneventful and boring (filler) arc for most part, when all is said and done. 3/10

23rd Tenkaichi Budokai:
[spoiler]- Goku is all grown up now. It brings a tear to my eye. And makes Bulma a little turned on…
- Roshi’s antic have officially become old hat. I swear, it seems like half of the time he appears in the story he’s either groping a woman or looking at their panties.
- The preliminary matches for these tournaments are always such a delight.
- King Chappa is the most disappointment martial artist in Dragon Ball
-
- Yajirobe went from being on level pegging to Goku to losing to an old man by accident. *Sigh*.
- Lunch is one of the few gags in Dragon Ball that always seems to retain her charm.
- Tien vs Cyborg Tao Pai Pai is one of the best one-sided fights in all of Dragon Ball. It served as a definitive and satisfying conclusion of Tien’s character that began back during the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. It also brought an end to the subtle subplot of the Crane School/Turtle School. Fantastic stuff.
- Episode 137 is fantastic. The first half is just wonderful. Goku’s fight with Chi Chi, the misunderstanding of how Goku agree to marry Chi Chi when he was a kid, and Goku casually agreeing to marry her since he did promise it. And everyone’s reactions to the scenario unfolding the way it did were amazing. Goku is such a dumb, easy-going, lovable hick.
- Krillin’s battle with Piccolo (Ma Junior) is second best fight he’s been involved in
- Episdoe 139 has some great animation in the fights between Yamcha and Shen and Goku and Tien.
- Shunsuke Kikuchi’s score is just perfect.
- Yamcha getting hit in the balls from Shen ducking will never not make laugh.
- Goku vs Tien in this tournament was better than their fight in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, and I loved their fight at that tournament too so that should really tell you something.
- Did the Devil just swallow God? What a twist.
- Okay, how in the hell did the crowd not immediately notice that Ma Junior looked a lot like King Piccolo? Why did it take until Ma Junior announced that he would restore King Piccolo’s reign of terror over Earth for the crowd to realise that he’s identical in appearance to the person who took over the world? I mean, that shit happened just three years ago. I guess this ironically epitomizes how forgettable King Piccolo was a central antagonist.
- Goku’s Feet Kamehameha is the most innovate technique I’ve ever seen in any fight in Dragon Ball.
- The artwork of the Goku/Ma Junior fight in the manga is some of the best I’ve seen. Just stunning.
- I loved the analysis of Goku’s character. Roshi sums it up beautifully… Goku was never a person who thought much of about the global situation. The only thing that really gets him excited in life is fighting an opponent that is worthy of him. That is Goku to a T.
- Ma Junior is, unfortunately, bland as a villain. Like father, like son.
- Man, this fight between Goku and Ma Junior has gotten really brutal. I think it’s the most graphic fight in the story.
- Toshio Furukawa performance as Ma Junior is sensational
- The Goku/Ma Junior is favourite fight in all of Dragon Ball. Good animation, perfectly paced, great suspense and a unique ending. The manga version of the fight is top quality in presentation.
- You could seriously pass of this ending of the arc as the ending for the entire story with how definitively conclusive it feels. And if this really was the end of Dragon Ball, I’d be more than content. This would have served as the perfect ending for Dragon Ball’s story.[/spoiler]
Thoughts on the arc:
This arc is fucking phenomenal. This arc has everything that makes Dragon Ball… well… Dragon Ball. The subplots from the previous arcs reaching a satisfying conclusion, the great fights and the fantastic character progression. This arc was a wonderful blend of comedy, action and even some romance. This arc had everything that you love about Dragon Ball or battle manga. It’s the only arc so far that I would consider as good in the anime as it is in the manga. The best tournament arc in all of Dragon Ball. 10/10

Wedding Dress (Filler):
[spoiler]- More Journey To The West references. Yay.
- Seeing Chi Chi in action is always welcome.
- I would have not preferred not to see Grandpa Gohan again. He send-off in the Uranai Baba was more than satisfactory.
- I don’t give a shit about Annin, or the Furnace of Eight Divinations, or Gyumao’s castle catching fire (again). I just want to see Goku and Chi Chi’s wedding already
- FINALLY. We get to Goku and Chi Chi’s wedding. This snippet should have been in the manga.
- It’s such a shame the anime ends on such a low point with a bad filler arc. This all should have been wrapped up in two episodes.[/spoiler]
Thoughts on the arc:
Well… at least we got the wedding of Goku and Chi Chi by the end of it. That’s all the good I can say about this filler arc. 2/10

Final thought(s):
As a whole, the anime has aged phenomenally well. Arcs that I liked before a lot still hold up very well (Red Ribbon Army, 21st Budokai Tenkaichi and 23rd Budokai Tenkaichi). And arcs that I really didn’t think of much before, are far better than I could have imagined following a revisiting to them (22nd Budokai Tenkaichi, Uranai Baba and Hunt For The Dragon Ball). Not to mention, most of the anime original material, whether it was on its own or integrated into the plot, was very good for the most part.

The King Piccolo arc being the stinker that it is does dampen things a bit. Especially considering, for what seemed like the longest time, I’ve though of that that arc as the best in the Dragon Ball anime, or at least the best arc pre-Saiyan shenanigans. And the nonsense wedding dress filler episodes overstayed their welcome, but we got the wonderful ceremony of Goku and Chi Chi’s marriage so it (kind of) makes ups for the boring bullshit that led up to it.

I originally rated the anime a 9.5/10. But I’ll have to bump it down to 9/10 in retrospect. Only because the Piccolo Daimao arc drops the ball so damn hard. But everything else... the wonderful and seamlessly evolving artstyle, Shunsuke Kikuchi’s sensational score, the consistent animation, the stellar performances from the main cast, more than make up for any shortcomings and makes Dragon Ball a thoroughly terrific anime.

Note: Dragon Ball Z is next and will be ready by late January 2018.

Special Note: Thank you again for all the feedback. Your comments are greatly appreciated guys. :thumbup:
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:02 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

Post by precita » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:33 pm

Completely disagree on the King Piccolo arc, it's my favorite arc of Dragonball outside the tournaments.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:49 pm

Different Strokes for Different folks. I dont love the Piccolo arc more than Lord Beerus but I still like it a lot. Because that it THEN that the Dragon Ball anime became an absolute MUST. FREAKING. WATCH for kids in Latin America. We didnt have fansubs back then so we didnt know how it all turn out and the death of a major main character was just UNHEARD OF until then. I know it sounds incredibly contradictory but I do appreciate the arc even if as I said before I dont really love it anymore.
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Re: Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

Post by MR.Mark » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:01 pm

I agree for the most part except for the character of Piccolo. He did have interesting traits. He showed fear for the Mafuba, he fought dirty, and his actions toward controlling the world was far more interesting than Cell's terror on faces bullshit. Hell, Perfect Cell even appeared on TV like a poor man's Piccolo.
Piccolo is evil for the sake it, but that's the point of him, being split from Kami.

It's Piccolo jr where I think his father's traits were tacked on.

There is a lot of meh drama in the Piccolo arc, should of just saved Krillin's first death for Freeza. Not to say his death wasin't sad in this arc, but Goku's revenge spree reaction was not great.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

Post by ABED » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:14 pm

I disagree with basically everything you said about Piccolo. Even aside from him being the literal embodiment of evil cast off by Kami, he has panache. He has a presence and menace to him that many pure evil characters in any story often lack. He's entertaining to watch and that's what matters primarily, not how deep his reasons for doing what he does are.
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Re: Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

Post by floofychan333 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:10 am

Strongly disagree on King Piccolo, but strongly support your perspective on the filler arc between King Piccolo and Jr.
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Re: Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:04 pm

I see a lot of people don't agree with the my thoughts on the King Piccolo arc, or at least specifically King Piccolo as a character. That's perfectly okay and I accept those opinions. I just feel like King Piccolo, being basically an evil counterpart, could have been a far more compelling and intimidating as a villain. A villain who is "evil for the sake of it" can be far more interesting than what King Piccolo is. There so many character concepts similar to King Piccolo that were done infinitely better before and after King Piccolo's arc. And I'm not talking about Dragon Ball specifically. Again, that's not say King Piccolo is, as a whole, completely unentertaining. He does have his moments where he's very interesting to watch. But that's all it really is... moments. I never feel compelled to watch King Piccolo for every minute he's on screen. He's too generically evil.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

Post by ABED » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:06 pm

There so many character concepts similar to King Piccolo that were done infinitely better before and after King Piccolo's arc. And I'm not talking about Dragon Ball specifically.
For instance?
He's too generically evil.
No worse than a villain that's supposed to be deep and sympathetic but is still bland.

Your entire point about Goku's cardiac arrest completely misses the mark. I don't know how that bugs you. We're talking about a series where characters regularly get hit in the head, crash into the ground from great distances, and hit mountains, but it leaves no lasting damage. Their brains would be gelatin, but a heart that restarts on its own bugs you?
It would have been much more effective if Goku stayed dead, or better yet, the story doesn’t go out of its way to tell you Goku’s heart has stopped.
How? Piccolo destroys Shen Long so how would Goku have been brought back? And how does it the story go out of its way to tell us about Goku's heart? At this point, I think you are just throwing out phrases to knock something you don't like for arbitrary reasons.
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Re: Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:32 pm

ABED wrote:For instance?
Johan Liebert, Dio Brando, Venom, Obito Uchiha, Palpatine, Reverse Flash, Roah, Nagato, The Joker, Dr Doom, Khan, Shinobu Sensui, Red Skull, Agent Smith, Darth Vader, Thailog, Aku, Injustice Superman, Two-Face, Lots-o'-Huggin' Bear, Raoul Silva... and that's off the top of my head.

King Piccolo is basically the "Evil Counterpart" villain kind of character. And it's been done far better.
ABED wrote:Your entire point about Goku's cardiac arrest completely misses the mark. I don't know how that bugs you. We're talking about a series where characters regularly get hit in the head, crash into the ground from great distances, and hit mountains, but it leaves no lasting damage. Their brains would be gelatin, but a heart that restarts on its own bugs you?
The context of someone heart stopping and then magically starting to beat again is so far removed from the realm of possibility, even in nonsensical world like Dragon Ball, that is harms the stakes of the plot. No one is saying that these characters aren't tough and can't recover from stuff like broken bones or fly into building and mountain and not suffer brain damage. But there need to be a believable limit or else you create this mentality where the character survive anything, regardless of of implausible it may be. And as such, suspension of disbelief becomes nonexistent and the stakes are automatically lessened. If Goku can do the impossible and get his heart beating again, basically resurrecting himself from the dead, with no explanation as to how, what prevents this kind of scenario being applied in the future?
ABED wrote:How? Piccolo destroys Shen Long so how would Goku have been brought back? And how does it the story go out of its way to tell us about Goku's heart? At this point, I think you are just throwing out phrases to knock something you don't like for arbitrary reasons.
The story specifically goes out of way in that regard by having King Piccolo checking Goku's pulse, confirming he doesn't have one and coming to the logical conclusion that he's dead. If Goku stayed dead, it would have been far more effective for the narrative as it sells the idea that any character can die. It creates an unprecedented amount of stakes and tension, and gives the remaining supporting cast an avenue to step up and defend the Earth and show the story isn't so reliant on Goku doing all the heavy lifting himself. You could have a story where Goku dies, Tien steps in to play the protagonist, which also serves a brilliant avenue to further develop his character as he move towards being less of hardened character and more of a heroic character when the time calls for it, travel to Korin's Tower gather some Senzu, give one to Yamcha, and have them team up to battle King Piccolo and his minions.

And it didn't even matter that Shenlong died. He was revived at the end of the arc by Mr Popo and Kami so nonchalantly and quickly after King Piccolo died, that it's frankly inconsequential for Shelong to even be killed in the first place.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

Post by ABED » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:43 pm

Two-Face isn't a pure evil villain, neither is Darth Vader, nor Venom, nor Sensui. A number of those are arguable.
And it's been done far better.
Doesn't mean it was done badly just because it's been done better elsewhere.
magically starting to beat again is so far removed from the realm of possibility
In a world that has talking pigs and a magic wish granting dragon? It wasn't even magically revived, he simply wasn't dead. You've drawn a completely arbitrary line regarding believability.

ANd no, Goku is the protagonist. Tenshinhan taking over that spot would be a bad move. Your armchair quarterbacking is an awful idea. All the things you are accusing the show of aren't fixed by killing off Goku. You still have an issue with stakes seeing as how you have to bring Goku back sometime. And what about Goku vs. Piccolo Jr.? How is the rematch made better by taking away much of the motivation for it?

In your scenario, does Goku still fight Raditz and die?
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Re: Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:08 pm

ABED wrote:In a world that has talking pigs and a magic wish granting dragon? It wasn't even magically revived, he simply wasn't dead. You've drawn a completely arbitrary line regarding believability.
You comparing the lore of world the basic necessity for survival, which isn't an apt comparison. Yes, we know the Dragon Ball world is full of wacky and impossible creatures but the story still respects the boundaries of life and death. Just because you have a world where animals can walk and talk, doesn't mean they can't die.

Again... suspension of disbelief. You can buy into a world where there are anthropomorphic cats, dogs, pigs, tigers, lizards and wish granting dragons. That's not the main issue. You can always present a setting as off-the-wall as Dragon Ball with no problem. What is the issue is the circumstances of how these characters can survive certain scenarios. There needs to be a line drawn in that regard if you want to create a story where the reader can fully buy into the stakes and drama that the narrative is trying to convey and be invested in their fates.

If it's scenerio where Goku is unconscious and regains his consciousness, that perfectly fine. There's no issue with that. But when Goku certifiably dead, and he manages to get his heart beating again, and bring himself back to life, without an explanation, how can you can not question a scenario? How can not think that the reader won't be scratching their head and thinking, "How did they survive that?". We know that the main cast are tough as shit, but don't give the idea that they're invincible at their own devices. That's a horrible mentality to create. Because you then can't get invested at all when a character actually, because you ultimately think, "When will they be brought back the life?" And this, unfortunately, is an issue that still plagues Dragon Ball to this day.

Dragon Ball, as unconventional and as rule bending as it is, at least respects some degrees the conventional limitations of life and death. But in that moment, it didn't respect any degree of life and death. It didn't care about consequences, it didn't care about the ramifications and it didn't care about it own limits. That scene basically told you, "We'll do whatever we want to keep the plot moving forward, and we don't need to tell you why." Yeah... I'm sorry, but fuck that noise.

I'll say this much though, knowing that Dragon Ball has established itself as a story that will do whatever it wants, whenever it wants, however it wants and doesn't need to explain why has certainly made the bullshit we see later in the story, GT and Super a hell of a lot easier to swallow. Because as I said before: That’s just Dragon Ball, for better or for worse, being Dragon Ball.
ABED wrote:ANd no, Goku is the protagonist. Tenshinhan taking over that spot would be a bad move. Your armchair quarterbacking is an awful idea.
How do you know it would have been a bad move? You can still a good story in Dragon Ball even if Goku isn't the main focus of it.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

Post by ABED » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:00 pm

It wouldn't have been AS good. Goku is the main character, so why put the focus on someone else? Goku had yet to achieve his goal of winning the Tenkaichi Budokai. Killing him makes that final round rematch mean a lot less.
There needs to be a line drawn in that regard
And that line for you is not falling miles to the ground, it's a heart restarting? And he wasn't all the way dead. He's only mostly dead. Goku didn't get his heart starting again, it just restarted because he wasn't all the way dead. In all the time I've been around this fandom, and I've been around it since AOL's heyday, you're the only one who this is a problem for. Goku wasn't invincible. He just BARELY survived that blast. It took Yajirobe to drive then carry him to get him back to full strength. Again, wish granting balls, talking animals, surviving great heights and smashing into mountains, but a heart restarting crosses the line.
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Re: Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

Post by TheMikado » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:30 pm

When we were originally rating the series the original anime actually scored the lowest for me, however this is because I hadn’t seen it in 20 years and I was comparing it to Z.

That said now at my age and with kids it’s on par if not surpassing Z for me. Even better is that the world feels incredibly full and huge and the fact that both we the audience and Goku are all seeing it for the first time adds to that. I will admit my kids amazement at seeing this all for the first time may be making me bias as well but it genuinely feels new and I feel like I’m looking at the series with new eyes.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:33 pm

ABED wrote:It wouldn't have been AS good. Goku is the main character, so why put the focus on someone else? Goku had yet to achieve his goal of winning the Tenkaichi Budokai. Killing him makes that final round rematch mean a lot less.
You don't know that. Dragon Ball has managed to tell good stories where Goku isn't the main focus or even featured at all.
ABED wrote:And that line for you is not falling miles to the ground, it's a heart restarting? And he wasn't all the way dead. He's only mostly dead. Goku didn't get his heart starting again, it just restarted because he wasn't all the way dead. In all the time I've been around this fandom, and I've been around it since AOL's heyday, you're the only one who this is a problem for. Goku wasn't invincible. He just BARELY survived that blast. It took Yajirobe to drive then carry him to get him back to full strength. Again, wish granting balls, talking animals, surviving great heights and smashing into mountains, but a heart restarting crosses the line.
Again... we know these character are tough as shit. We know they can survive things that kill an average human being. That's not issue. The issue is presenting an issue where the character can anything. That's the issue. We know the setting is wacky and far detached from reality. But what isn't detached from reality is the circumstances of life and death. These kind of characters can be killed or die of natural causes.

We know that these characters can be brought back to to the means of external magic. That's acceptable because the story establishes that. What isn't okay is the character being killed and then suddenly waking up like nothing happened, with no external assistance. When you have no pulse, you're fucking dead. Not "mostly" dead. Not "nearly all the way" dead. You're a goddamned corpse until somebody starts your heart again for you.

If Yajirobe came over got performed CPR on Goku, and that got his heart beating, you know what, I would be okay with that. But I will not accept the scenario that Goku brought himself back from the dead. That fucking ridiculous. It cheapens the concept of death and it's circumstances so much, and it's just bad storytelling. Because it's pointless drama used to suck in the reader/watcher into thinking the narrative has taken a very dire turn

Oh my God... Goku has no pulse. He's dead!
But, oh, wait, no, everything's fine.
But how is everything fine? How did he come back to life?
Well, it doesn't matter because we need Goku alive for the plot to keep going.

Fuck. That.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

Post by ABED » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:42 pm

You don't know that. Dragon Ball has managed to tell good stories where Goku isn't the main focus or even featured at all.
I do know that. Goku hadn't even completed his arc yet. Besides, why would you make a brand new character the hero? How do you see this all going down after Piccolo's defeat? Would Goku come back and win the 23rd Budokai? Would he still die in the battle against Raditz? The stories suffered when Goku was gone for an extended period. Trying to make someone else the hero after an extended period didn't work for DB nor other stories.
These kind of characters can be killed or die of natural causes.
Sure, but he wasn't dead. You don't have to accept Goku reviving himself. That's not what happened. His heart just started beating again. It wasn't through conscious effort, he simply wasn't dead yet.
it's pointless drama used to suck in the reader/watcher into thinking the narrative has taken a very dire turn
So if everything had gone the same, except for the CPR, would you still think it was pointless drama? Couldn't most TV shows be considered pointless drama seeing as how we know the in the vast majority of cases, the main character won't die?
How did he come back to life?
HE WAS NOT DEAD. You make it seem like Goku was hunky dory when he revived. He was worse for wear and needed Yajrobe's help. And hearts can in fact start beating again without someone resuscitating. It's rare, but has happened. It's called Lazarus Syndrome. It's not like it starting beating days after Piccolo thought he killed him. Only a few minutes passed.
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Re: Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:38 pm

ABED wrote:I do know that. Goku hadn't even completed his arc yet. Besides, why would you make a brand new character the hero? How do you see this all going down after Piccolo's defeat? Would Goku come back and win the 23rd Budokai? Would he still die in the battle against Raditz? The stories suffered when Goku was gone for an extended period. Trying to make someone else the hero after an extended period didn't work for DB nor other stories.
There's nothing inherently wrong with another character stepping into Goku's role and defeating the central villain. It happened in the Cell arc. You could easily told the story from another POV, and it could have been as easily as entertaining.Goku was out of action for extended stretches of the Saiyan arc, Namek arc and Cell arc and the story progressed just as fine without him. People still loved those arcs even when Goku wasn't around all the time. You may have an issue, but a lot of other people didn't. Yes, Goku is the main character. But Dragon Ball has show that they can tell good stories with Goku being involved in prominence. The Future Trunks and Bardock TV specials are definitive proof that you don't need Goku as a central focus in every story told in Dragon Ball. People like Dragon Ball not just solely for Goku's actions in the story. People enjoys many other aspects of Dragon Ball's narrative beyond what takes places from Goku's POV.
ABED wrote: Sure, but he wasn't dead. You don't have to accept Goku reviving himself. That's not what happened. His heart just started beating again. It wasn't through conscious effort, he simply wasn't dead yet.
What is your first instinct when someone doesn't have a pulse? Yeah, they're dead. That always been the case. And until you do something to get their heart beating again, that remains the case. There's no middle ground in this. Someone can't be half-dead or mostly dead. That's the kind of loose terminology you'd use to describe zombies not human beings.
ABED wrote:So if everything had gone the same, except for the CPR, would you still think it was pointless drama? Couldn't most TV shows be considered pointless drama seeing as how we know the in the vast majority of cases, the main character won't die?
Most TV shows I've seen at least haven't gone to such logic twisting extremes. There's at least some kind of in-universe handwave.
ABED wrote:HE WAS NOT DEAD. You make it seem like Goku was hunky dory when he revived. He was worse for wear and needed Yajrobe's help. And hearts can in fact start beating again without someone resuscitating. It's rare, but has happened. It's called Lazarus Syndrome. It's not like it starting beating days after Piccolo thought he killed him. Only a few minutes passed.
He. Was. Dead. He had no freakin pulse. And Lazarus Syndrome can only happen after failed attempts at resuscitation. In this case, Goku was killed, as his heart stopped beating, King Piccolo made his wish and killed Shenlong, Yajirobe came over listened to his chest and his heart started beating again. Nobody actually helped Goku restart his heart. It just decided to started beating again at it's own convenience. That's nonsense. That kind of scenario has never happened before.
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Re: Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

Post by MR.Mark » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:44 pm

Piccolo's method of getting Gohan's heart going again in ROF was more credible than this, I agree.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

Post by ABED » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:49 pm

He. Was. Dead. He had no freakin pulse. And Lazarus Syndrome can only after failed attempts at resuscitation.
MANY minutes afterward. And it wasn't the failed resuscitations that caused the heart to start beating again. The heart restarted on its own. And again, this is FICTION! It can work however the author wants. None of this can actually happen. Of all the things you could possibly get hung up on, a spontaneous beating of the heart is scraping the bottom of the barrel. Okay, even assuming I agree, at most I would say is that Yajirobe should've tried to resuscitate him. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.
It happened in the Cell arc.
And we saw what happened there. It didn't work out so well. It's not easy to switch main characters and I would argue that after a certain point, it's impossible to change and keep the story as good as it used to be.
Goku was out of action for extended stretches of the Saiyan arc, Namek arc and Cell arc and story progressed just as fine without him.
Goku wasn't just out of action, he was doing something usually. In the Saiyan arc, he was running the Serpentine Road, training or running back, in the Namek arc, he was training. Taking Goku out of action to up the drama got repetitive. It is like Justice League Season 1 when the writers kept taking Superman out of commission to up the drama, but they did it too often.
he Future Trunks and Bardock TV specials are definitive proof that you don't need Goku as a central focus in every story told in Dragon Ball.
Those are 45 minute self contained stories and aren't applicable here. If Goku dies so Tenshinhan and Yamcha (really, Yamcha?) can have the spotlight, that will have huge ramifications for the story going forward. The defeat of Piccolo isn't nearly as cathartic if Goku isn't the one to do it. Goku's win at the 23rd Budokai doesn't mean as much because the final fight wouldn't be a rematch between Piccolo and Goku. If he dies in the fight against Raditz, his death would be repetitive. ANd in no way was I arguing that Goku should always be the focus, but simply that he's the primary focus.

I just find it odd that our views about everything else are so close, but it's this one issue that you get hung up on.
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Re: Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:57 pm

ABED wrote:MANY minutes afterward. And it wasn't the failed resuscitations that caused the heart to start beating again. The heart restarted on its own. And again, this is FICTION! It can work however the author wants. None of this can actually happen. Of all the things you could possibly get hung up on, a spontaneous beating of the heart is scraping the bottom of the barrel. Okay, even assuming I agree, at most I would say is that Yajirobe should've tried to resuscitate him. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.
Yes, the heart restarted on it's own, but there was always a case of someone perfecting CPR before that instance occurred. And one of the hypothesis behind the heart restarting on it's own later is the build up of pressure from performing CPR and the relaxation of pressure after resuscitation efforts have ended is thought to allow the heart to expand, triggering the heart's electrical impulses and restarting the heartbeat. Either way, there is some kind of external intervention that contributes to it.

And yes, I know this is a fictional story. But that doesn't mean it can't be consistent or have illogical events that destroy you suspension of belief. The idea that we can mask the misgivings of any narrative under the notion of "It fiction", is, to quite frank, bullshit. We know the author has the right to write the story in whatever fashion he/she wants to. That not wrong at all. But the author also has the responsibility into making sure the story he/she rights follows a consistent and believable manner so that can get invested into what happens. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors or non existent that don't mean anything to them.

So when Goku has no pulse, but then after few minutes, his heart start beating again without anyone helping him, the audience have a right to know how that happens. Because if a character can evade death in such a manner, they'll ultimately wonder why this was never alluded to in the past, why other characters can't the same thing and it can lead to an emotional disconnect between the audience and the story their witnessing as they can't get invested into the concept of a character being killed.
ABED wrote:.And we saw what happened there. It didn't work out so well. It's not easy to switch main characters and I would argue that after a certain point, it's impossible to change and keep the story as good as it used to be.
You may not have like it, but many other fans enjoyed the angle of Gohan becoming the primary focus of the story.
ABED wrote:Goku wasn't just out of action, he was doing something usually. In the Saiyan arc, he was running the Serpentine Road, training or running back, in the Namek arc, he was training. Taking Goku out of action to up the drama got repetitive. It is like Justice League Season 1 when the writers kept taking Superman out of commission to up the drama, but they did it too often.
Goku may have doing something else, but the main point is that the story decided to spend some more time on other characters and story was perfectly fine despite that.
ABED wrote:Those are 45 minute self contained stories and aren't applicable here. If Goku dies so Tenshinhan and Yamcha (really, Yamcha?) can have the spotlight, that will have huge ramifications for the story going forward. The defeat of Piccolo isn't nearly as cathartic if Goku isn't the one to do it. Goku's win at the 23rd Budokai doesn't mean as much because the final fight wouldn't be a rematch between Piccolo and Goku. If he dies in the fight against Raditz, his death would be repetitive. ANd in no way was I arguing that Goku should always be the focus, but simply that he's the primary focus.
Those TV special are still stories under Dragon Ball banner. Regardless of their length, they were still good stories that didn't need Goku as a primary focus.

Goku already got his revenge by killing Tambourine, the person who killed Krillin. So the catharsis of Goku getting his revenge is still there. And considering that King Piccolo directly kills Tien's best friend (Chiaotzu), you could easily write this arc as a way of Tien getting his revenge and having Yamcha, the person whose leg was broken by Tien in the previous arc nonetheless, aiding him in getting revenge for their fallen comrades. Then you can have the angle of Goku finally get one up King Piccolo by defeating Piccolo (Jr.) at the 23rd Budokai Tenkaichi. And Goku's death at the hands of Raditz can still be dramatic despite him dying previously. Chiaotzu died for the second time in the Saiyan arc and it was still seen as very dramatic event.

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Re: Dragon Ball (Anime & Manga): A Personal Assessment

Post by ABED » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:03 pm

That wasn't his full revenge as Tambourine was taking orders. Then there's the issue of Muten Roshi's death.

Given that the only person who has a problem with this is you in all the time I've spent around the fandom, I'd say that no one else had a problem emotionally investing and didn't stop to wonder why. Everyone seems fine with it.
Goku may have doing something else, but the main point is that the story decided to spend some more time on other characters and story was perfectly fine despite that.
And do you think I'm arguing that every second of every episode has to be about Goku?
Goku already got his revenge by killing Tambourine, the person who killed Krillin. So the catharsis of Goku getting his revenge is still there. And considering that King Piccolo directly kills Tien's best friend (Chiaotzu), you could easily write this arc as a way of Tien getting his revenge and having Yamcha, the person whose leg was broken by Tien in the previous arc nonetheless, aiding him in getting revenge for their fallen comrades. Then you can have the angle of Goku finally get one up King Piccolo by defeating Piccolo (Jr.) at the 23rd Budokai Tenkaichi. And Goku's death at the hands of Raditz can still be dramatic despite him dying previously. Chiaotzu died for the second time in the Saiyan arc and it was still seen as very dramatic event.
It's not there as his full revenge isn't realized. We just met Tenshinhan, so why put him of all characters as the protagonist? We barely know Chaozu, so there is much less emotional investment in seeing Tenshinhan get revenge for his death. Goku getting one up by defeating Piccolo at the tournament isn't nearly as satisfying if Piccolo's rivalry would be with Tenshinhan. Another thing you are forgetting is that since in your scenario, Goku would've already been dead once, so he couldn't be wished back in the Saiyan arc. Chaozu's death was dramatic in the Saiyan arc because we knew the characters better and the audience believes his death is permanent.
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