Roshi's antics

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Kokonoe
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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Kokonoe » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:04 pm

rereboy wrote:
Kokonoe wrote:Ah, yes. The beauty of humor is "Har, har, har! Let's find amusement in sexual harassment and assault". Guys, I watched Family Guy and they do it there and it's soooooooooo funny! We should use Family Guy as the beacon to guide what all fiction directs to because Family Guy is the gold standard.

Not only that, let's talk about how there's murderers or people being killed, let's talk about how in horror movies people get cut up in ways. Let's completely ignore how freakin' damaging rape is compared to typical violence, how making a joke about anything relating to this subject is in absolute poor taste, and let's keep continuing defend this garbage by saying crap like "humor has no bounds, the best part is you can do ANYTHING with it". Yeah, that's a good freakin' excuse, do whatever you want no matter how damaging it may be. To heck with that nonsense.
As it has been stated in the topic before, humor is either tolerated or it isn't tolerated. There's really no way around it.
When the subject is freakin' sexual assault and sexual harassment, I think that warrants not being tolerated.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:07 pm

rereboy wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Doctor. wrote: Again, apples and oranges. People who complain about plot points are complaining about the way the story was handled and it's a whole different basket compared to people pretty much implying you shouldn't be allowed to write these kinds of jokes because it's "too far" or "in bad taste."
I don't see a difference. Both times people are complaining that they didn't like the way something was done and would have preferred it done differently.
I think there's a very clear difference. It's the same difference between someone hearing a joke and saying "you know, that joke would have been a lot better if instead of saying this, you said that, because that would build expectation and make the punch line more effective... and you really screwed this part, you should have a better delivery", and a guy saying "that joke is in poor taste because there are real people suffering from those issues, it's horrible, that joke shouldn't exist at all".
So saying that GT was terrible and never should have been made, or that Broly is a boring and lame character who should never have existed, is still giving constructive criticism, but saying anything about Roshi's sexual harassment (including just saying it should be toned down like some people have been) is just hating the series?
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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Zephyr » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:13 pm

Not addressing any user or post in particular, but there seem to be a few points being made in this thread that aren't being picked up on. I don't know if it's a reading comprehension problem, or a lack of sincerity, but it's there.

1. This is a children's show.
Dragon Ball is, and always has been, a show for children. Children are impressionable, they are still being socialized, they are still developing intellectually, still forming their worldview and value system. I'm never in favor of restricting a child's media diet to simple and unchallenging material, but people are still products of their environment. More so than that, they are the future. They're going to clock on, tag in, take over for us, and pick up from where we left off. How they shape the world further, by their hands, is going to be informed greatly by the value systems and worldviews and character that they cultivate, which, again, are shaped by the environment created for them by us, and those before us. Attitude informs action, which goes on to inform attitudes. Causality is a bitch. It's a feedback loop, it's cyclical. These things ripple through society across generations, whether it's convenient to confront this fact or not.

2. Subject matter and take-home point are distinct sources of discomfort and concern.
There's a difference between the subject matter surrounding a joke or a scene, and the take-home point of its punchline. These are two different pieces that can individually make someone uncomfortable, and for different reasons.

Sometimes, it's the subject matter itself that makes us uncomfortable. Murder and sexual assault are real things, and going through the process of experiencing discomfort by appreciating the severity of real world problems is important for empathizing with victims, prompting legitimate positive social action toward improving society and decreasing the likelihood of victimization. In this sense, it's good for us to feel uncomfortable. This is one of the things that art is supposed to do; offend, evoke emotion.

There's a different kind of discomfort that can come from the take-home point. If murder is genuinely depicted as perfectly okay and normal and something to just shrug off, in a show aimed squarely at impressionable and intellectually developing people who are still constructing a worldview and value system, then that's a problem just as much as Roshi's antics, at least in Super. This is what has a lot of people feeling uncomfortable: not the subject matter, but the message that the subject matter (deliberately or otherwise) exists in service of, the message that sexual assault is just fun jokes man, specifically in a show for people who, more than anyone else, need to absorb the opposite message.

3. None of this entails calls for censorship.
There's a world of difference between "it would have been more wise and socially aware of them to not telegraph this harmful message, and I hope they improve in that regard" and "they should only be allowed to express what we dictate in their art". No, the suggestion isn't that we force people to never create art with harmful take-home points. The suggestion is that so long as they are going to create art, we hope that they take the care to express positive messages.

Art is a reflection of the individual, and if the art that is created for children is reflecting an attitude that trivializes real world problems, then it's important to us that the artist grows and improves and contributes to more positive change, rather than inadvertently stoking the flames of a negative status quo forever. Because we like what they create, and we'd like to enjoy the things that they create without reservations. There's literally nothing wrong with wanting (read: not forcing) good art to also be aware of its greater social context and power and make positive use of that. Because Toriyama makes great art, and if it can be better (which it can), I can't imagine not wanting it to be.

If they don't......that sucks. But that doesn't mean we censor them, and/or keep this material out of the hands of kids. Again, I'm against restricting someone's media diet just because they're a child. I'm in favor of impressionable, intellectually developing people being exposed to harmful messages....so long as those harmful messages are properly punctuated by more socially conscious commentary. So, as part of fandom, we can at least do our part to provoke some critical thought on things that warrant it (and unaddressed elephants in the room more than warrant it).

Which is...exactly what we're supposed to foster in this thread. Making the commentary and observations, and addressing the elephants in the room, that the artist is unwilling or unable to tackle themselves in the work itself. Because, again, this is aimed at people still developing intellectually, and so harmful messages need to come with some extra notes and clarifications and supervision, if they're going to continue to come. Dragon Ball's good shit, and if that means that it's going to come with some baggage, I'm all for it, so long as we're able to sincerely address the baggage, to replace what few negative messages Toriyama inadvertently built into Dragon Ball, which comport onto impressionable minds, with positive and informed ones. Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away. Apathy, inaction, and ambivalence are still responses to these problems, and they're particularly reckless and irresponsible ones, at that. Again, ripple effects.

4. Different problems are different topics and deserve different threads.
I'm puzzled by the deflections to other potentially harmful things that Dragon Ball depicts, besides sexual assault, not as a means to sincerely talk about them, but as a means to not talk about sexual assault. Yes, of course there are other arguable problems with Dragon Ball. But that doesn't make this not a problem, and that also doesn't make this thread about those other problems, so it's an entirely moot point to bring up. Make other threads for those other problems, and we can talk about them as well. Over there. In their own threads. Because these are important topics with a lot of dense subject matter, so lumping them all together into a single thread disservices and trivializes them all by making the topic too broad, letting much of the crucial nuance fall between the cracks.

If something as good as Dragon Ball is going to inadvertently convey some harmful messages that fandom has to correct and nip in the bud, so its strengths can still be enjoyed for what they are, without reservations, then so be it. Let's do it. Let's actually do it, and not pussyfoot around the issue. If your only contribution to "look at this problem" is "well, yeah, but look at all of these problems instead!", then you don't actually have any meaningful contribution to make to the former, and are trying to actively impede on its discussion.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by rereboy » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:13 pm

Kokonoe wrote: When the subject is freakin' sexual assault and sexual harassment, I think that warrants not being tolerated.
Ok, let's imagine it stops being tolerated from now on. What next? Surely other people would want something else not being tolerated since it's actually a serious matter for a lot of people. So, either we turn into hypocrites and just not tolerate what you asked, or we start to not tolerate the next on the list. So... Violence? Gone. Humor regarding deceases? Gone. Humor regarding stereotypes? Gone. Humor regarding animals? Gone. Gender? Gone. And so on and so forth.

This issue is not only a matter of principle but also a practical one. Like I said, either humor is tolerated or it isn't. No one is forcing anyone to like or appreciate any particular brand of humor, but obviously humor can't auto-limit itself because otherwise it simply wouldn't exist.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Kokonoe » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:16 pm

rereboy wrote:
Kokonoe wrote: When the subject is freakin' sexual assault and sexual harassment, I think that warrants not being tolerated.
Ok, let's imagine it stops being tolerated from now on. What next? Surely other people would want something else not being tolerated since it's actually a serious matter for a lot of people. So, either we turn into hypocrites and just not tolerate what you asked, or we start to not tolerate the next on the list. So... Violence? Gone. Humor regarding deceases? Gone. Humor regarding stereotypes? Gone. Humor regarding animals? Gone. Gender? Gone. And so on and so forth.

This issue is not only a matter of principle but also a practical one. Like I said, either humor is tolerated or it isn't. No one is forcing anyone to like or appreciate any particular brand of humor, but obviously humor can't auto-limit itself because otherwise it simply wouldn't exist.
What the heck is this slippery slope nonsense? It's very clear, content where some old dude is touching women against their will and peeping on them on the toilet is not needed. No one is gonna take your Goku VS Frieza away, there's a MASSIVE difference between the content being shown here.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Kanassa » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:21 pm

floofychan333 wrote:It's REALLY depressing that I'm having to see people defend sexual assault... by the toxic sludge posted by the rape apologists.
I'd love to see some examples, otherwise you're mindlessly insulting people.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by rereboy » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:25 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
rereboy wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
I don't see a difference. Both times people are complaining that they didn't like the way something was done and would have preferred it done differently.
I think there's a very clear difference. It's the same difference between someone hearing a joke and saying "you know, that joke would have been a lot better if instead of saying this, you said that, because that would build expectation and make the punch line more effective... and you really screwed this part, you should have a better delivery", and a guy saying "that joke is in poor taste because there are real people suffering from those issues, it's horrible, that joke shouldn't exist at all".
So saying that GT was terrible and never should have been made, or that Broly is a boring and lame character who should never have existed, is still giving constructive criticism, but saying anything about Roshi's sexual harassment (including just saying it should be toned down like some people have been) is just hating the series?
No, talking about GT specifically, the difference would be like:

Example 1: "Man, they really screwed this up. GT could have been so much better, and they could really have done a much better job. The execution sucked... They had some good ideas but the actual execution was pretty terrible... And what was that of having Goku as a kid the WHOLE show? Man, if only they had Goku revert back to adult early in the series, if the first part in space wasn't so boring, if the whole cast was better used, this could have been a good show... But how it actually was, it wasn't even worth watching... basically a waste of time... for this kind of result I wish they hadn't even made it. I rather have nothing than a bad series disappointing me"

VERSUS

Example 2: "This series is really in poor taste... There are real people suffering from this issue everyday and this series makes light of it, it's horrible. I wish it didn't exist". The issue in this case would be violence, or something else.
Kokonoe wrote: What the heck is this slippery slope nonsense? It's very clear, content where some old dude is touching women against their will and peeping on them on the toilet is not needed. No one is gonna take your Goku VS Frieza away, there's a MASSIVE difference between the content being shown here.
Then I think you missed my point. It's not a slippery slope at all to point out that, if we start not tolerating some humor, we are either hypocrites that just don't tolerate humor regarding some serious issues, or we are non-hypocrites that don't tolerate humor regarding anything that can be considered a serious issue.

Also, I would like to point out that there is a difference between not tolerating and not liking. Not tolerating is actively seeking out and "squashing" something.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by AgitoZ » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:37 pm

Zephyr wrote:Attitude informs action, which goes on to inform attitudes. Causality is a bitch. It's a feedback loop, it's cyclical. These things ripple through society across generations, whether it's convenient to confront this fact or not.
You and everyone else parroting this has failed to prove this point. You've skipped a whole mess of conversation to reach a stage where the discussion is at a point that reflects what you personally see in the world.
Zephyr wrote:This is what has a lot of people feeling uncomfortable: not the subject matter, but the message that the subject matter (deliberately or otherwise) exists in service of, the message that sexual assault is just fun jokes man, specifically in a show for people who, more than anyone else, need to absorb the opposite message.
This is incredibly tone deaf. The show never rewards Roshi for being a sexual deviant. He always (up until Super) got some much needed karma for his antics. Let's follow your train of thought that these things are dangerous because kids are young and impressionable. All that Roshi tells a kid is if you start to feel up a women without their consent you're likely to get beat up or some other comeuppance.
Zephyr wrote:Which is...exactly what we're supposed to foster in this thread. Making the commentary and observations, and addressing the elephants in the room, that the artist is unwilling or unable to tackle themselves in the work itself.
I think you're being pretty disingenuous. Plenty of people are willing to discuss Roshi's actions but many aren't willing to let it go that it's somehow harmful to society or children. And it seems to have peeved certain members that not everyone is buying what they're selling.
Zephyr wrote:I'm puzzled by the deflections to other potentially harmful things that Dragon Ball depicts, besides sexual assault, not as a means to sincerely talk about them, but as a means to not talk about sexual assault. Yes, of course there are other arguable problems with Dragon Ball. But that doesn't make this not a problem, and that also doesn't make this thread about those other problems, so it's an entirely moot point to bring up. Make other threads for those other problems, and we can talk about them as well. Over there. In their own threads. Because these are important topics with a lot of dense subject matter, so lumping them all together into a single thread disservices and trivializes them all by making the topic too broad, letting much of the crucial nuance fall between the cracks.
Saying to take it to another thread is a deflection in and of itself. Unless a mod suddenly decides that's off topic there's nothing wrong with bringing other objectionable content in Dragon Ball. It's a valid question as to why this is what people have such a problem. Is it so difficult to possibly entertain this point?
Zephyr wrote:If something as good as Dragon Ball is going to inadvertently convey some harmful messages that fandom has to correct and nip in the bud, so its strengths can still be enjoyed for what they are, without reservations, then so be it. Let's do it. Let's actually do it, and not pussyfoot around the issue. If your only contribution to "look at this problem" is "well, yeah, but look at all of these problems instead!", then you don't actually have any meaningful contribution to make to the former, and are trying to actively impede on its discussion.
Here's your problem: that you think it's a problem. Tell me what problem there is in the Dragon Ball fandom with sexual assault or any other kind of unwanted sexual advances. And in addition to that can it be linked to the gags found in the work itself. You and every other person who seriously thinks anyone here is defending anyone who would do Roshi's actions in real life needs to re-read the thread.
If you're not here soon... GET ON!

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Kokonoe » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:42 pm

rereboy wrote:
Kokonoe wrote: What the heck is this slippery slope nonsense? It's very clear, content where some old dude is touching women against their will and peeping on them on the toilet is not needed. No one is gonna take your Goku VS Frieza away, there's a MASSIVE difference between the content being shown here.
Then I think you missed my point. It's not a slippery slope at all to point out that, if we start not tolerating some humor, we are either hypocrites that just don't tolerate humor regarding some serious issues, or we are non-hypocrites that don't tolerate humor regarding anything that can be considered a serious issue.

Also, I would like to point out that there is a difference between not tolerating and not liking. Not tolerating is actively seeking out and "squashing" something.
That was very much a slippery slope, in fact, that was the definition of a slippery slope you brought up all these other variables of what MIGHT happen no matter how unlikely that is.

And no, we aren't hypocrites if we don't tolerate "jokes" about sexual harassment and sexual assault which is a very big issue throughout the world.

I'd like to hear the argument of why this content is needed in Dragon Ball of all things?

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by rereboy » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:49 pm

Kokonoe wrote:
That was very much a slippery slope, in fact, that was the definition of a slippery slope you brought up all these other variables of what MIGHT happen no matter how unlikely that is.
Is it? What are all the possible options once we decide to not tolerate humor based on serious issues?

Option 1 - We don't tolerate any humor based on any possible serious issue.
Option 2 - We don't tolerate humor based on some serious issues.

There's no other options once we decide to not tolerate humor based on serious issues and no alternatives once we decide to do it. The only other alternative would be to tolerate humor based on serious issues. So, where is the slippery slope? This is merely describing what the options are.
And no, we aren't hypocrites if we don't tolerate "jokes" about sexual harassment and sexual assault which is a very big issue throughout the world.
There are many very serious issues in the world. Why wouldn't someone be hypocritical if he chose to not tolerate one of those issues but tolerated another?
I'd like to hear the argument of why this content is needed in Dragon Ball of all things?
It's not. It's not a matter of being needed, it's simply a matter of something humorous being allowed to exist or tolerated when a number of people has a problem with it or not. That's the issue I was talking about.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Kokonoe » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:52 pm

rereboy wrote:
Kokonoe wrote:
That was very much a slippery slope, in fact, that was the definition of a slippery slope you brought up all these other variables of what MIGHT happen no matter how unlikely that is.
Is it? What are all the possible options once we decide to not tolerate humor based on serious issues?

Option 1 - We don't tolerate any humor based on any possible serious issue.
Option 2 - We don't tolerate humor based on some serious issues.

There's no other options once we decide to not tolerate humor based on serious issues and no alternatives once we decide to do it. The only other alternative would be to tolerate humor based on serious issues. So, where is the slippery slope? This is merely describing what the options are.
And no, we aren't hypocrites if we don't tolerate "jokes" about sexual harassment and sexual assault which is a very big issue throughout the world.
There are many very serious issues in the world. Why wouldn't someone be hypocritical if he chose to not tolerate one of those issues but tolerated another?
I'd like to hear the argument of why this content is needed in Dragon Ball of all things?
It's not. It's not a matter of being needed, it's simply a matter of something humorous being allowed to exist or tolerated when a number of people of a problem with it or not. That's the issue I was talking about.
Once again, there you go and I don't get how you're not seeing how removing this specific content is literally not the same as any other content that you're suggesting. This is a slippery slope, dude lol.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by rereboy » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:56 pm

Kokonoe wrote: Once again, there you go and I don't get how you're not seeing how removing this specific content is literally not the same as any other content that you're suggesting. This is a slippery slope, dude lol.
You didn't actually respond to what I said. Just removing this content would fall under option 2.
Last edited by rereboy on Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Kokonoe » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:57 pm

rereboy wrote:
Kokonoe wrote: Once again, there you go and I don't get how you're not seeing how removing this specific content is literally not the same as any other content that you're suggesting. This is a slippery slope, dude lol.
You didn't actually respond to what I said.
Oh, I did, you keep repeating your nonsensical slippery slope and you're comparing everything else to something that has no comparison.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by rereboy » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:00 pm

Kokonoe wrote:
rereboy wrote:
Kokonoe wrote: Once again, there you go and I don't get how you're not seeing how removing this specific content is literally not the same as any other content that you're suggesting. This is a slippery slope, dude lol.
You didn't actually respond to what I said.
Oh, I did, you keep repeating your nonsensical slippery slope and you're comparing everything else to something that has no comparison.
No, I asked what where all the possible options (besides the ones I listed, obviously). You didn't answer. Thus, you didn't demonstrated how I wasn't describing simply all the possible options. I also asked why wouldn't someone be hypocritical if he chose to not tolerate one of those serious issues but tolerated another. You didn't answer. And finally you ignored that just removing this content would fall under option 2, for which you didn't answer why it wouldn't be hypocritical.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Kid Buu » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:02 pm

As a kid I thought the scenes were funny but as an adult I can see how it makes one feel uncomfortable seeing as grouping is a major issue in our society. I haven't seen Super but from what I've heard his scenes in it would probably make me feel uncomfortable too.
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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Sailor Haumea » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:03 pm

Bullza wrote:Ain't no flaw to me, I find it funny.

We've become PC enough as it is in today's age where everyone is offended over little thing, I'd rather it not ruin a significant part of Master Roshi's character just because some people on Tumblr might cry about it.

If he wants to have a good old squeeze of Vados' ass after a well earned victory then let him go right ahead.
I can't tell if you're trolling or really this misogynistic. Perhaps both.

(Edited - originally contained foul language)
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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Sailor Haumea » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:04 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:Why is it 'creepy' and 'weird'? I don't find the stuff with the Muten Roushi all that funny a lot of the time, either, but I also can't see any reason to describe it as being 'creepy' and 'weird' when the content otherwise has no message of harm towards real people. If anything it's irreverent towards itself, like drawing a rock in the middle of a panel as a triangle when all of the other rocks are squares.
I'm getting rather fed up with the way you've adapted your posting style over the years. You complain about people on "both sides" missing the point and dragging the conversation away, yet here you are pulling it to some existential question about rocks that are triangles and squares.

Since you've been around for so long, I feel a little more comfortable being so direct with you here than I would otherwise be with someone else: you know damn well what's creepy about it, you're pulling your usual schtick to justify your own perviness, and you're equally unwilling to have the actual conversation at hand. Enough, Jacob.
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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Kokonoe » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:12 pm

rereboy wrote:
Kokonoe wrote:
rereboy wrote:
You didn't actually respond to what I said.
Oh, I did, you keep repeating your nonsensical slippery slope and you're comparing everything else to something that has no comparison.
No, I asked what where all the possible options (besides the ones I listed, obviously). You didn't answer. Thus, you didn't demonstrated how I wasn't describing simply all the possible options. I also asked why wouldn't someone be hypocritical if he chose to not tolerate one of those serious issues but tolerated another. You didn't answer. And finally you ignored that just removing this content would fall under option 2, for which you didn't answer why it wouldn't be hypocritical.
It's really quite simple, we don't tolerate making a joke out of sexual harassment and sexual assault, especially in content like this that is aimed at a larger demographic of not just adults, but children as well. There is nothing else comparable to this and thus there is no hypocrisy at play here.

In fact, I don't have an issue with a perverted character existing, there is a much better designed perverted character out there and his name Jiraiya from Naruto. No groping anyone, no kidnapping anyone, no looking at young girls on the toilet, no getting young girls to flash their vagina to him. The worst he did was peep on adult women in a hot spring episode and got his punishment for doing so and it wasn't anywhere near as explicit as any of Roshi's scenes as the women remained mostly submerged in the water. Naruto himself (as a kid) yells at him, too.

You have a character that keeps his perverted tendencies but doesn't get into the rapey category where it becomes too disgusting.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:19 pm

rereboy wrote:No, talking about GT specifically, the difference would be like:

Example 1: "Man, they really screwed this up. GT could have been so much better, and they could really have done a much better job. The execution sucked... They had some good ideas but the actual execution was pretty terrible... And what was that of having Goku as a kid the WHOLE show? Man, if only they had Goku revert back to adult early in the series, if the first part in space wasn't so boring, if the whole cast was better used, this could have been a good show... But how it actually was, it wasn't even worth watching... basically a waste of time... for this kind of result I wish they hadn't even made it. I rather have nothing than a bad series disappointing me"

VERSUS

Example 2: "This series is really in poor taste... There are real people suffering from this issue everyday and this series makes light of it, it's horrible. I wish it didn't exist". The issue in this case would be violence, or something else.
I feel like you're continuing to mischaracterize the arguments of one side here.

It's more along the lines of 'Perhaps this character shouldn't be so easily forgiven for their actions, or perhaps they should be portrayed as having more serious consequences', or even 'I enjoy the series and don't want to change it, but it's okay to recognize that it has flaws, such as this character's behavior being treated as a harmless gag'.
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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Asura » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:46 pm

floofychan333 wrote:
PsionicWarrior wrote:
TheGreatness25 wrote:Some things cannot be made into a joke and this is just one of them. To me, those who can't understand that, are either lacking some sort of basic human emotion, or just don't have any experience with people who are victims of such things, thus living a rather sheltered life.
Yeah, this is almost fascist rethoric man.
Wow. It's tragic to see that somebody is saying that criticism of their favourite series is "fascism."

Anyway, things have spiraled way out of control since I last posted here so I'm a bit lost and will withdraw from the conversation. It's REALLY depressing that I'm having to see people defend sexual assault. Special credit to Cipher, TheGreatness25, and the endlessly reasonable VegettoEX for providing logic and reason in a conversation tarnished by the toxic sludge posted by the rape apologists. There's way more I could say here but it isn't worth my time to comment on all the infuriating things people are posting here. I'm pretty sure somebody's going to get banned soon or the thread will get locked. If so, I'm sorry for starting this thread and unintentionally exposing a member of our community.
I don't even know what to say about this post. I'm speechless. You really need to go back and read through the entire thread again because nothing about what you've said is even remotely close to true, and you've also completely misconstrued PsionicWarrior's comment about fascism which has absolutely nothing to do with criticism of Dragon Ball. WHO is defending sexual assault? Where are these rape apologists spewing "toxic sludge" in this thread? Please go back and re-read the thread because that's really insulting of you to call half the people in this thread rape apologists and sexual assault defenders when we are doing nothing of the kind. I don't see any reason for anyone to be banned or for this thread to be locked. It's a controversial topic and as a result things are bound to get heated, but everyone has kept a level head and the discussion has been civil.
Zephyr wrote:Not addressing any user or post in particular, but there seem to be a few points being made in this thread that aren't being picked up on. I don't know if it's a reading comprehension problem, or a lack of sincerity, but it's there.

1. This is a children's show.
Dragon Ball is, and always has been, a show for children. Children are impressionable, they are still being socialized, they are still developing intellectually, still forming their worldview and value system. I'm never in favor of restricting a child's media diet to simple and unchallenging material, but people are still products of their environment. More so than that, they are the future. They're going to clock on, tag in, take over for us, and pick up from where we left off. How they shape the world further, by their hands, is going to be informed greatly by the value systems and worldviews and character that they cultivate, which, again, are shaped by the environment created for them by us, and those before us. Attitude informs action, which goes on to inform attitudes. Causality is a bitch. It's a feedback loop, it's cyclical. These things ripple through society across generations, whether it's convenient to confront this fact or not.
This point has already been addressed. As I've said a couple pages ago, Goku goes around slapping girls in their privates as a child. Does this cause children to grow up thinking it's okay to slap girls down there? We all grew up with Dragon Ball (or at least most of us) and I'd like to think that most of us didn't turn out to be rapists or people who commit sexual assault as a result.
Zephyr wrote:2. Subject matter and take-home point are distinct sources of discomfort and concern.
There's a difference between the subject matter surrounding a joke or a scene, and the take-home point of its punchline. These are two different pieces that can individually make someone uncomfortable, and for different reasons.

Sometimes, it's the subject matter itself that makes us uncomfortable. Murder and sexual assault are real things, and going through the process of experiencing discomfort by appreciating the severity of real world problems is important for empathizing with victims, prompting legitimate positive social action toward improving society and decreasing the likelihood of victimization. In this sense, it's good for us to feel uncomfortable. This is one of the things that art is supposed to do; offend, evoke emotion.

There's a different kind of discomfort that can come from the take-home point. If murder is genuinely depicted as perfectly okay and normal and something to just shrug off, in a show aimed squarely at impressionable and intellectually developing people who are still constructing a worldview and value system, then that's a problem just as much as Roshi's antics, at least in Super. This is what has a lot of people feeling uncomfortable: not the subject matter, but the message that the subject matter (deliberately or otherwise) exists in service of, the message that sexual assault is just fun jokes man, specifically in a show for people who, more than anyone else, need to absorb the opposite message.
Why does everything have to be a social message? Why are you looking into jokes and gags and treating them as social messages? Kids treat it as a joke, they're not looking deep into this and thinking it's okay to sexually assault women, otherwise like I said people would follow Goku's example and strip naked in public or smack girls in their privates. If you agree that murder is also a problem in this show, do people grow up and become murderers from watching Dragon Ball Z? Until there's actually evidence of that, the answer is no. Just like until there's actual evidence of children growing up thinking it's okay to sexually assault people, it should be assumed that it isn't an issue. This goes back to the '90s when soccer moms were afraid that Dragon Ball Z would cause their children to become violent. No proof of it, and I assume that most of us were displeased with the censorship as a result.
Zephyr wrote:3. None of this entails calls for censorship.
There's a world of difference between "it would have been more wise and socially aware of them to not telegraph this harmful message, and I hope they improve in that regard" and "they should only be allowed to express what we dictate in their art". No, the suggestion isn't that we force people to never create art with harmful take-home points. The suggestion is that so long as they are going to create art, we hope that they take the care to express positive messages.

Art is a reflection of the individual, and if the art that is created for children is reflecting an attitude that trivializes real world problems, then it's important to us that the artist grows and improves and contributes to more positive change, rather than inadvertently stoking the flames of a negative status quo forever. Because we like what they create, and we'd like to enjoy the things that they create without reservations. There's literally nothing wrong with wanting (read: not forcing) good art to also be aware of its greater social context and power and make positive use of that. Because Toriyama makes great art, and if it can be better (which it can), I can't imagine not wanting it to be.

If they don't......that sucks. But that doesn't mean we censor them, and/or keep this material out of the hands of kids. Again, I'm against restricting someone's media diet just because they're a child. I'm in favor of impressionable, intellectually developing people being exposed to harmful messages....so long as those harmful messages are properly punctuated by more socially conscious commentary. So, as part of fandom, we can at least do our part to provoke some critical thought on things that warrant it (and unaddressed elephants in the room more than warrant it).

Which is...exactly what we're supposed to foster in this thread. Making the commentary and observations, and addressing the elephants in the room, that the artist is unwilling or unable to tackle themselves in the work itself. Because, again, this is aimed at people still developing intellectually, and so harmful messages need to come with some extra notes and clarifications and supervision, if they're going to continue to come. Dragon Ball's good shit, and if that means that it's going to come with some baggage, I'm all for it, so long as we're able to sincerely address the baggage, to replace what few negative messages Toriyama inadvertently built into Dragon Ball, which comport onto impressionable minds, with positive and informed ones. Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away. Apathy, inaction, and ambivalence are still responses to these problems, and they're particularly reckless and irresponsible ones, at that. Again, ripple effects.
Why does Toriyama have to put social messages in his work? Why does he have to be aware of a "greater social context" when making a harmless gag aimed at children who find it funny in context, and nothing more? I agree that there's nothing wrong with suggesting they improve on their gags, especially after the disastrous and uncomfortable jokes in 89 and 105 which takes the character and brings him to new lows. However, I don't find Roshi's antics in DB to be problematic because it's treated as a lighthearted gag by all parties involved, and nothing more. Who decides what "negative messages" are? You could argue that a lot of things in Dragon Ball are negative messages that you shouldn't do in real life, but it's a cartoon, and it's not meant to be taken seriously.

If you want to replace the supposed negative messages that Toriyama has built into Dragon Ball, how are you any different than the folks at FUNi who initially started Dragon Ball by replacing perceived negative messages with what they deemed appropriate? If you are pushing to replace (your words) an author's work with something else, that is basically the very definition of censorship. Of course, the "jokes" in 89 and 105 do not come from Toriyama, and I highly doubt that Toriyama would have ever made such uncomfortable scenarios like that. I would argue that Roshi's antics don't need to be replaced, they just need to fall back in line with how the character was made to act by Toriyama, who portrayed these jokes and gags in a lighthearted nature, which 89 and 105 completely fails to do. Toriyama's handling of Roshi's character has nothing wrong with it though, and the jokes don't convey any kind of social message, nor should anyone read it as any kind of social message because they're written as lighthearted gags and nothing more. Dragon Ball is already a very old series. If we grew up with it and didn't turn out thinking sexual assault and rape was okay, what makes you think the children of this generation will think so after watching Dragon Ball?
Zephyr wrote:4. Different problems are different topics and deserve different threads.
I'm puzzled by the deflections to other potentially harmful things that Dragon Ball depicts, besides sexual assault, not as a means to sincerely talk about them, but as a means to not talk about sexual assault. Yes, of course there are other arguable problems with Dragon Ball. But that doesn't make this not a problem, and that also doesn't make this thread about those other problems, so it's an entirely moot point to bring up. Make other threads for those other problems, and we can talk about them as well. Over there. In their own threads. Because these are important topics with a lot of dense subject matter, so lumping them all together into a single thread disservices and trivializes them all by making the topic too broad, letting much of the crucial nuance fall between the cracks.

If something as good as Dragon Ball is going to inadvertently convey some harmful messages that fandom has to correct and nip in the bud, so its strengths can still be enjoyed for what they are, without reservations, then so be it. Let's do it. Let's actually do it, and not pussyfoot around the issue. If your only contribution to "look at this problem" is "well, yeah, but look at all of these problems instead!", then you don't actually have any meaningful contribution to make to the former, and are trying to actively impede on its discussion.
People bring up different potentially harmful things that Dragon Ball depicts because as I've repeatedly said before, either there are no limits or comedy, or everything should be limited in comedy. It is hypocritical to point to one taboo subject and deem it not acceptable while completely ignoring other taboo subjects. If you're really as passionate about barring depictions of sexual assault in DB as you are barring depictions of murder and violence, then that's a completely different story and I really have nothing to say to that (except for why would you watch this martial arts shonen show in the first place?) It is not a means to deflect off the topic of sexual assault, only to point out the hypocrisy in finding topics like sexual assault to be bad, when murder is as bad if not worse than sexual assault but is conveniently ignored because people want the show to conform against what they deem offensive because they read too far into sexual jokes of a lighthearted nature.
Sailor Haumea wrote:
Bullza wrote:Ain't no flaw to me, I find it funny.

We've become PC enough as it is in today's age where everyone is offended over little thing, I'd rather it not ruin a significant part of Master Roshi's character just because some people on Tumblr might cry about it.

If he wants to have a good old squeeze of Vados' ass after a well earned victory then let him go right ahead.
Shut the fuck up.

That is all.
Please don't make comments like this. Comments like this are what causes a thread to be locked because the discussion stops being civil and personal insults are thrown around. The discussion has been fine and civil up to this point, so please don't ruin it for the rest of us who just want to have an open conversation and discussion on the matter.

Locked