Roshi's antics

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KBABZ
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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by KBABZ » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:47 am

Bullza wrote:
Kokonoe wrote:Fuck off.
Ah, the easily offended type. Ok now I see why this thread was made.
They didn't even make the thread to begin with?

---

I personally have never found Roshi's sexual antics to be in good taste; when editing DB into T1C, I intentionally removed all non-manga pervert scenes because of how distasteful they are, and only kept the manga ones for accuracy reasons. Roshi's stuff is in a different genre from "Goku pulls down his pants to show the crowd his tail", because while Goku simply doesn't know any better, Roshi does and is a sexual predator trying to cop a feel (or more) against the will of his target. Not only that, but he does it repeatedly, over and over again, to the same woman over the course of multiple decades as the story drags on. It's a huge betrayal of his otherwise kindly and wise nature and it destroys a lot of his credibility (to look for a positive example, look at how Jackie Chun shows a more serious and analytical side to Roshi very early on in the story). Toriyama and Toei are both to blame for these scenes, but Toei I think deserves a bit of an extra mention here due to that scene with General Blue.

Horrible trope aging aside, the structure of Roshi's antic scenes is also more predictable than Super using a new form to solve a problem. So predictable in fact that the scene is non-entertaining as soon as Roshi starts acting the slightest bit suspiciously. This drags episodes down to a crawl and it feels like a desperate attempt to pad them out an extra minute or two (or a few more panels in the case of the manga).

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Bullza » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:31 am

KBABZ wrote:I personally have never found Roshi's sexual antics to be in good taste
It's not supposed to be in good taste. That's the joke.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Doctor. » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:38 am

Kokonoe wrote: So when did I state that exactly? That's an argument a lot of people try to pull, "but what about this, what about that", this isn't about those things. Also, what about those things are in this series that are done poorly? If they are done poorly as well, feel free to criticize them. The thing here is that you and others with similar views such as yourself are trying to find reasons that equate for whatever reason, and there's nothing that equates to being sexually assaulted.
Comparisons are made because we shouldn't be arbitrary regarding comedy. I replied to only one of your posts but it was a general reply to your responses in the following pages, where you say this:
that's where it's no longer a "joke" and becomes sexual harassment and assault, and in very poor taste
It doesn't stop being a joke because you don't find it funny or think it's off-limits.
when my statement was noting the issue of undermining the actions being portrayed in this series and comparing it to the likes of freakin' Family Guy and cartoonish violence, it really shows your motivations in this topic are questionable.
Yes, my motivations boil down to making sure comedy, and art in general, is in no way limited or restricted. I think I've made that clear.
And what part of this occurs in Dragon Ball where someone kills themselves from being bullied?
Where are the deep psychological trauma in DB's sexual assault victims? You're missing the point. It's perfectly possible that a child, or even an adult, with bullying and abandonment issues looks at Gohan and feels it hits too close to home. That's actually more believable considering Gohan's situation is treated seriously. And just as someone can look at Gohan and be inspired at the character's strength and bravery, people can look at Bulma and Chi-Chi and be inspired by their strength and how they stand up for themselves. You're too caught up in the negative implications Roshi's actions may have while ignoring the positive ones.

You'll say that Gohan is an alien who fights aliens. But Roshi is a 300-year old hermit with superpowers and Bulma has natural blue hair and a 200 IQ. You can't be arbitrary in the parallels you establish.
Last edited by Doctor. on Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by rereboy » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:34 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
I feel like you're continuing to mischaracterize the arguments of one side here.

It's more along the lines of 'Perhaps this character shouldn't be so easily forgiven for their actions, or perhaps they should be portrayed as having more serious consequences', or even 'I enjoy the series and don't want to change it, but it's okay to recognize that it has flaws, such as this character's behavior being treated as a harmless gag'.
Sure, but there is still a difference between both positions, imo. One criticizes the series from within the series itself, the other criticizes it from outside the series, with an almost political point of view.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Cipher » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:40 am

Asura wrote:I'm not sure what direct emulation is supposed to mean, and google reveals no results, but I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you basically mean a copycat, in which case yes, there have been tons of people implying that to potentially be the case with kids supposedly learning that Roshi's antics are okay to do, and if they think it's okay to do and there's no problem with it, that it's a possibility they'll go out and do it too. If this is what you meant by direct emulation, then no I don't see how it's a strawman at all given there are a number of people in this thread who have claimed Roshi's antics can potentially leave an impression on children. If this isn't what you meant by direct emulation then you'll have to elaborate on that for me.
That is what I meant. If those posts are here, I've missed them, but I'll say that that's a bit too far a stance for me in general. It does not, however, mean I think the DB gags are harmless.
And now you're falling right into my argument of "context". In the context of the show and the depiction of scenes, there is nothing wrong with Uncle Ruckus' racism. Regardless of whether the Boondocks is chiefly concerned with race, the point is that racism is used in a humorous way and both the show and the characters find very little to be wrong with it. Racism is a taboo subject along the likes of sexual assault and murder, is it not? Dragon Ball does not have to be chiefly concerned with any sort of subject to be able to portray those subjects in a humorous light. No form of media has to be chiefly concerned with anything to make jokes about it either. I don't believe Roshi normalizes predatory behavior for the reasons I've stated throughout the thread.
You don't see a difference between a character in a show centrally concerned with race relations being used ironically for commentary on race relations, and a character in a series that's definitely not about sexual politics being used for light jokes involving sexual harassment?

Like, really?

I can't take the space in this thread to explain context to you from square one, because that's where our starting point would be, but I'd implore you to think about what you typed here again.
It just means that everyone has a different sense of humor, but that the key word here is humor, because it's a joke in a cartoon show and as previously said is not meant to reflect, commentate, emulate, or normalize sexual assault in the real world.
It doesn't matter what it's meant to do. What matters is what it does. Normalization isn't an agenda—it's just the result of glib attitudes toward a subject being reflected again and again.
If there's even more stuff out there that depicts and tells people how bad sexual assault is in todays day and age, wouldn't you logically assume that there would be even less of a chance of someone growing up today to find that sort of behavior acceptable?
I would absolutely assume that. But now you're seemingly agreeing with me, so I'm not sure where you're coming from.

If you believe today's media environment has (finally) broken through and turned a corner to the point where fewer people are likely to grow up thinking that kind of behavior is remotely acceptable, then you're acknowledging what should be a given—media does help foster social attitudes. Wouldn't that mean, just as people have been observing for multiple pages now, that Kame-Sennin's gags would be a part of Dragon Ball that has aged poorly, and may have helped reinforce some of the more harmful attitudes of its time? Something akin to, say, the terrible "red man" song in Disney's Peter Pan, where we can still hold up the work as a whole, but look at one particular aspect and say, "Yikes. That was really not doing anyone good"?
rereboy wrote:Sure, but there is still a difference between both positions, imo. One criticizes the series from within the series itself, the other criticizes it from outside the series, with an almost political point of view.
I hate to burst your bubble on this, but the way fiction interacts with the world it's introduced to has not always been a part of discussion and criticism from the start, but a foundational, inherent part of how people respond to it. Dragon Ball's a silly-ass series, but it doesn't exist in a vacuum, nor are people's reactions that draw from how it interacts with social ideas any less visceral or honest than thoughts like "This is fun!" or "This is dull."
Doctor. wrote:Rape and sexual assault are not the only damaging traumas a person can experience. Acting like they're the ultimate or most damaging trauma is not only arbitrary, but conceited beyond belief, as you're belittling other people's traumatic experiences because, in your own subjective view of the world, they're not as "damaging." You don't get to judge that.
They may not be the only forms of trauma, but they're some of the only ones societies have historically struggled to take seriously.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by rereboy » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:41 am

Kokonoe wrote:
It's really quite simple, we don't tolerate making a joke out of sexual harassment and sexual assault, especially in content like this that is aimed at a larger demographic of not just adults, but children as well. There is nothing else comparable to this and thus there is no hypocrisy at play here.
It quite obvious that violence and murder are as serious issues as sexual harassment and sexual assault, if not bigger. So, obviously, there's plenty comparable in terms of seriousness.
In fact, I don't have an issue with a perverted character existing, there is a much better designed perverted character out there and his name Jiraiya from Naruto. No groping anyone, no kidnapping anyone, no looking at young girls on the toilet, no getting young girls to flash their vagina to him. The worst he did was peep on adult women in a hot spring episode and got his punishment for doing so and it wasn't anywhere near as explicit as any of Roshi's scenes as the women remained mostly submerged in the water. Naruto himself (as a kid) yells at him, too.

You have a character that keeps his perverted tendencies but doesn't get into the rapey category where it becomes too disgusting.
I personally also like Jiraya's antics more than Roshi's but as it has been discussed, the issue here isn't really about our personal view.
Cipher wrote: I hate to burst your bubble on this, but the way fiction interacts with the world it's introduced to has not always been a part of discussion and criticism from the start, but a foundational, inherent part of how people respond to it. Dragon Ball's a silly-ass series, but it doesn't exist in a vacuum, nor are people's reactions that draw from how it interacts with social ideas any less visceral or honest than thoughts like "This is fun!" or "This is dull."
Er... I never stated that it existed in a vacuum? I merely stated that there's a difference between both positions? Just like like is a difference between not liking a brand of humor or a joke and avoiding it, and actually not tolerating it and actively try to squash it?
Last edited by rereboy on Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Doctor. » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:43 am

Cipher wrote: They may not be the only forms of trauma, but they're some of the only ones societies have historically struggled to take seriously.
But they take it seriously now. Guys, nobody tolerates sexual assault. It's treated harshly everywhere you go in the West. The fact that Harvey Weinstein and other celebrities got away with it isn't proof that it isn't taken seriously, it's proof that big money celebrities do scummy shit because they can. If it weren't a sexual issue, it'd be monetary fraud or something of the sort.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by rereboy » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:17 am

Kokonoe wrote:
Bullza wrote:
Sailor Haumea wrote:I can't tell if you're trolling or really this misogynistic. Perhaps both
Neither, I'm just not part of this new age culture where everyone is offended or upset over everything.

It's humour in a fictional cartoon, it's not real. Family Guy has had Quagmire do drastically more severe things to woman in the show than Master Roshi will ever do. He's drugged woman and dragged them off into his bedroom and guess what? It's still funny and Quagmire is still a hugely popular character and people are not having nervous breakdowns about what he's doing.

Are we supposed to cry every time the show has a Terrorist joke? Rape joke? Paedophile joke? Gay joke? No because it's a cartoon show, it's not real life and it's a comedy that's meant to be funny.
Fuck off.
His post had valid arguments. Yours didn't, just a random insult.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Kokonoe » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:11 am

Bullza wrote:
Kokonoe wrote:Fuck off.
Ah, the easily offended type. Ok now I see why this thread was made.
No, you're being a piece of shit so I told you to fuck off. Try not being a piece of a shit and I won't.
rereboy wrote:His post had valid arguments. Yours didn't, just a random insult.
Only a fool would call those "valid arguments".

-edit-

Vegetto, I apologize for using this language on your site as this is for the most part a very respectable site. That said, I don't regret what I'm saying so I'll accept whichever the punishment is.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Bullza » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:24 am

Kokonoe wrote: No, you're being a piece of shit so I told you to fuck off. Try not being a piece of a shit and I won't.
I don't care what you call me. Humour being made out of something that is deemed inappropriate or wrong in real life is one of the most common forms of humour there is.

Grand Theft Auto is the most popular game on the planet that revolves around killing, torture, assault, misogyny, stealing, drug use etc. We all know that is wrong in real life but we don't care because it's a form of entertainment.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by rereboy » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:36 am

Kokonoe wrote: Only a fool would call those "valid arguments".
Stating that it's a joke? Humor? Not real? Not meant to be serious? That there are series out there doing worse with no real backlash because for the most part people understand that it's humor? Seems pretty valid and relevant for me. His tone could have been better but that's about it. On the other side, simply calling people "fools" isn't an argument.
Kokonoe wrote: No, you're being a piece of shit so I told you to fuck off. Try not being a piece of a shit and I won't.
Er... No, he wasn't. His tone could have been better but he actually offered arguments, and even his tone wasn't anything special at all. Unlike this post of yours.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by Totamo » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:35 am

I don't know, man. I feel this may be an overreaction to a piece of fiction that has no bearing of realism in the first place. I get that times have become more sensitive on these topics , especially among users of a certain site,but its just a simple troupe in a show filled with sexual humor, i mean we see Goku's dragon balls more than once, are you going to call it a child porn?



I'm not going to say get over it, because you have the right to complain about what you feel needs to be, but you are creating a slippery slope about how far fiction is allowed to go and seeing as how dragon ball had to be less bloddy nowadays and people have complained about that and consider it a major flaw of super. You might make more enemies than allies here.

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Re: Roshi's antics

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:05 pm

Social commentary and analysis has been in the DNA of Kanzenshuu dating back to a time before that name ever existed. From Julian's original coverage of the Toys R Us manga incident in 2000, to my own coverage of the manga being pulled from a Maryland school library (and subsequently labeled as child pornography), to our highlights of the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund and their work with Dragon Ball, to our podcast topics on gender roles and General Blue's portrayal in the series... it truly is nothing new. This extends to our community, which has offered up thoughts and criticism along those same lines right alongside us as we approach our 20th birthday.

Unfortunately, here in this thread and in several others (particularly over the last two or three years), we have seen the rise of certain viewpoints in our forum community. We have seen the denial of institutional racism, sexism and all associated forms of harrassment, homophobia, etc.

These are not opinions. These viewpoints are wrong and they are steeped in ignorance. There is no "two sides" to this. There is no compromise to be had.

Kanzenshuu will not let these voices go unchallenged. Every step of the way we will do everything in our power to shut them down with facts, education, and yes, authority. These voices will not be the loudest, and they will not define the Kanzenshuu community.

Several folks have recently asked us how the website makes money. We explain how the four of us that run the site (Mike, Heath, Julian, Jake) all have "real life" jobs, do this in our spare time, and supplement the minor forum advertisements we have with our own money just to keep the lights on each month, not just for the forum but for the entire website.

What little resources we have will never be the safe home to such bigotry, and we will not waste any extra time on it.

Kanzenshuu is not coming to take Dragon Ball away from you, and any criticism and commentary on any aspect of it — be it from past or present productions — should never be viewed this way. Quite the contrary; we are your biggest allies in pushing for an uncensored, widely-available, faithfully translated and presented version of the entire Dragon Ball franchise. Kanzenshuu is about facts, it is about documentation, it is about collaboration, and it is about the need to always be learning.

The aforementioned ignorant viewpoints have no place here, and never will.

We'll have to try this one again some time in the future.
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