Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

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Bardo117
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Re: Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

Post by Bardo117 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:16 pm

Of course it's supported, it's just the owners do not want to be responsible or shut down for being a website that lets it's users freely share pirated content, at least publicly.
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Re: Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

Post by DBGod » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:17 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Well, actually, by most definitions, that is piracy. I believe technically any recordings off of TV that are kept for more than a year or so are considered pirate copies. And while you could make the case that the Blue Water and Ocean episodes aren't available on any home release, the Funimation episodes that would fill in the gap in Z(Which would be about 110-130 episodes) are available to purchase; the only way to get them like they are on broadcast is the commercial edited VHS releases, though the oldschool DVD singles would contain basically the same thing, just unedited. So... Yeah, it's piracy.
Actually this is not necessarily true. The law on this subject matter is highly interpretive and assuming the content is not being distributed to any degree, and is only for personal use just about any case such as this can easily be argued under the "fair use" act as according to the Supreme Court of Canada's definition and guidelines. By your logic or argument, majority of citizens would be committing a crime. However, as the Supreme Court has stated this act was put in place specifically to justify cases such as these because it is impossible for it to be enforced hence why the "within reason" and "fair use" acts were enacted in the first palce. The United Kingdom has similar laws to Canada and I believe for this subject as well (I have to double check, I wouldn't make assumptions without knowing), but in your case you also have possessions of recorded material and to my knowledge you have shared them online which is blatantly illegal because that's distributing copyrighted material...
Robo4900 wrote:Also...
You say they were taped off YTV; YTV skipped the first ~60-80 episodes of Ocean's post-Namek Z dub, so unless you've got some Toonami airings too, you can hardly call it "More or less complete"; that's a pretty big segment to be missing.
If you took any time to bother looking through any of my posts you would see I have not only made this information available numerous times on the forum prior to you even joining by the way, but I also have connections with people who actually worked for Corus during the airings of the show in the early 2000s, and have actually learned new information about why they were skipped. Funny there is a high chance you only know this because one of my old posts without even realizing it.. Others before me have also shared this information too but I being one of them more recently anyhow.

I was referring to episode segments such as recaps and previews if it isn't already obvious enough. The Android/Cell Sagas I already have from other sources by the way, and not from Toonami. I am not sure why you would assume it has to be UK, because other European countries aired the dubs as well. So yes what I have is more or less complete.
If you have any English recorded material and would like to put it to good use, please PM me!
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Re: Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:19 am

DBGod wrote:If you took any time to bother looking through any of my posts you would see I have not only made this information available numerous times on the forum prior to you even joining by the way, but I also have connections with people who actually worked for Corus during the airings of the show in the early 2000s, and have actually learned new information about why they were skipped.
Care to share your findings then?
DBGod wrote:Funny there is a high chance you only know this because one of my old posts without even realizing it.. Others before me have also shared this information too but I being one of them more recently anyhow.
Nope. Don't think I've ever read any of your posts; you said they were recorded off YTV. I know YTV skipped a certain number of episodes, I believe it's pretty well-known by many fans of the Ocean dub. I think I was first told about the skip by Arian.
DBGod wrote:I was referring to episode segments such as recaps and previews if it isn't already obvious enough. The Android/Cell Sagas I already have from other sources by the way, and not from Toonami. I am not sure why you would assume it has to be UK, because other European countries aired the dubs as well. So yes what I have is more or less complete.
And with that, your entire argument that what you're doing isn't piracy falls apart. :P
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Re: Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

Post by Gligarman » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:09 pm

I was at Anime Expo the year Dragon Ball Super premiered and they had a booth there. I asked them if it would be made available in North America when it premieres and they said no to both braodcast and streaming or even home video release at the time. That's essentially begging for piracy as far as I'm concerned. But the thing is I think they knew this. Super had a huge audience established before any official simulcasts were made available and it instantly became the most popular show on Crunchyroll. So yeah, piracy can hurt a product but it can also help in some ways.

As for the rest of the series, at this point I couldn't blame someone for pirating the original version of DBZ prior to the Kai release because the only time it was ever properly released in North America on DVD was the Dragon Boxes and those are long out of print. Every other release is either incomplete, inappropriately cropped to 16:9, missing footage, etc. I'm pretty sure Toei wants to bury that version since so many of the original materials were lost over time and that's why Kai was created.

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Re: Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

Post by bigray » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:47 am

Gligarman wrote:
As for the rest of the series, at this point I couldn't blame someone for pirating the original version of DBZ prior to the Kai release because the only time it was ever properly released in North America on DVD was the Dragon Boxes and those are long out of print. Every other release is either incomplete, inappropriately cropped to 16:9, missing footage, etc. I'm pretty sure Toei wants to bury that version since so many of the original materials were lost over time and that's why Kai was created.
Um what's wrong with the DVD singles?

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Re: Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

Post by DBGod » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:53 am

Robo4900 wrote: Care to share your findings then?
Clips as I said before sure, but anything more is illegal now isn't it? :wink: :lol:
Robo4900 wrote:Nope. Don't think I've ever read any of your posts; you said they were recorded off YTV. I know YTV skipped a certain number of episodes, I believe it's pretty well-known by many fans of the Ocean dub. I think I was first told about the skip by Arian.
Exactly my point proven, as that user got the information from what ultimately came from me/my group of friends all collaborating together to work on our own projects.
Robo4900 wrote:And with that, your entire argument that what you're doing isn't piracy falls apart. :P
Nope, because your still assuming I didn't reside in a European country that aired the dubs during the time of its broadcasts and record it. :wink:
If you have any English recorded material and would like to put it to good use, please PM me!
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Re: Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

Post by KBABZ » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:17 am

bigray wrote:Um what's wrong with the DVD singles?
Not in print!

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Re: Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

Post by Robo4900 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:44 am

Gligarman wrote:I was at Anime Expo the year Dragon Ball Super premiered and they had a booth there. I asked them if it would be made available in North America when it premieres and they said no to both braodcast and streaming or even home video release at the time. That's essentially begging for piracy as far as I'm concerned. But the thing is I think they knew this. Super had a huge audience established before any official simulcasts were made available and it instantly became the most popular show on Crunchyroll. So yeah, piracy can hurt a product but it can also help in some ways.
Yeah, sometimes piracy can be of help. The first few episodes of the 2003-2009 Battlestar Galactica series premiered in the UK quite a while before it did in the US, and the showrunners asked people not to pirate it. Naturally, everyone pirated it; but, when it made the rounds in piracy sites, people saw just how good it was, and as a result, when the show started airing in the US, it was one of the highest-rated seasons of anything its channel had aired.

Ultimately though, if the option of online streaming like Crunchyroll had been available for Battlestar, I imagine the same thing would have happened, and I imagine it's a similar situation with Super. Of course, the main difference with Super is that we wouldn't have had to deal with the problems of fansubs(I mean, the one good fansub for Super -- DragonTeam -- was consistently slow, and eventually just stopped a few weeks before Crunchyroll acquired it), so perhaps it would have been better like that. But, the point here is, if there isn't an officially-released option, people will turn to piracy, that's one of the big incentives for such companies to do a good job; with something like Super, all they need do is actually make it available, which they initially failed to do.
The situation is more complex with the original three series, but given Toei has yet to do a true HD remaster of the original three shows, they may do one someday. The question is whether they'll do it the right way, or the wrong way...
Gligarman wrote:As for the rest of the series, at this point I couldn't blame someone for pirating the original version of DBZ prior to the Kai release because the only time it was ever properly released in North America on DVD was the Dragon Boxes and those are long out of print. Every other release is either incomplete, inappropriately cropped to 16:9, missing footage, etc.
Yeah. It's a pretty terrible situation. What's even crazier is that the one version of the show that had a decent 16:9 crop(Kai 1.0, which had several additional redrawn scenes that weren't in the 4:3 version to accomodate widescreen framing) is the only version of the Z portion of the show in-print that isn't cropped to 16:9. It's utter madness.
Gligarman wrote:I'm pretty sure Toei wants to bury that version since so many of the original materials were lost over time and that's why Kai was created.
The only original materials that don't exist is the high-quality audio master, and if they cared about that, they would have taken up Kei on his offer for the broadcast audio years ago.
Dragon Ball as a whole actually is in a pretty much ideal situation in terms of materials existing for a remaster; the original 16mm(And 35mm for the movies, and a few episodes of Z in the Freeza arc) film negatives exist in Toei's vaults, the stereo master audio for GT still exists, the movies all have high-quality audio masters in existence(Some even have stereo mixes), the broadcast audio is available, multiple prints of various generations from the original negatives all exist, older, standard-def tape scans from when the colour on the film was still much more fresh should exist in Toei's vaults, which gives us a great colour-correction reference, especially when augmented with original animation cels and background drawings...

If the effort and time was put in, a truly remarkable HD restoration of Dragon Ball could be put together with glorious visuals, great colour, and nice audio. But, everyone's so convinced it will never happen that no one's talking about it, and anyone who does is either laughed off, or otherwise shut down, so I don't see Toei doing anything about this with the situation as it is now, unfortuantely.
DBGod wrote:
Robo4900 wrote: Care to share your findings then?
Clips as I said before sure, but anything more is illegal now isn't it? :wink: :lol:
What I meant is, could you share the knowledge you've found about why so many Ocean episodes were skipped in Canada?
bigray wrote:Um what's wrong with the DVD singles?
They're incomplete(Episodes 1-67 of Z are only presented in the cut, Saban dub form), they're out of print, and collecting them is cumbersome(They take up a huge ton of space, you have to collect them one single at a time, which will take ages and a lot of money...)... It's hardly a stand-in for a proper release.
Admittedly, it is the best release available to US fans for the material it covers(Original dub, so dub fans get the version they grew up with, without any of the inconsistent redubs, missing vocal effects, or other general weirdness surrounding the "Remastered" dub; there's a sub track which works perfectly well), but unless you're a collector, it's a difficult thing to justifiably buy.
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Re: Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

Post by KBABZ » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:28 am

Robo4900 wrote:The only original materials that don't exist is the high-quality audio master, and if they cared about that, they would have taken up Kei on his offer for the broadcast audio years ago.
Dragon Ball as a whole actually is in a pretty much ideal situation in terms of materials existing for a remaster; the original 16mm(And 35mm for the movies, and a few episodes of Z in the Freeza arc) film negatives exist in Toei's vaults, the stereo master audio for GT still exists, the movies all have high-quality audio masters in existence(Some even have stereo mixes), the broadcast audio is available, multiple prints of various generations from the original negatives all exist, older, standard-def tape scans from when the colour on the film was still much more fresh should exist in Toei's vaults, which gives us a great colour-correction reference, especially when augmented with original animation cels and background drawings...

If the effort and time was put in, a truly remarkable HD restoration of Dragon Ball could be put together with glorious visuals, great colour, and nice audio. But, everyone's so convinced it will never happen that no one's talking about it, and anyone who does is either laughed off, or otherwise shut down, so I don't see Toei doing anything about this with the situation as it is now, unfortuantely.
I think another factor putting them off is the sheer size of DB and DBZ, with 444 episodes to cover, which is over 177 hours worth of content, or seven and a half days of content. It's a truly galactic amount, and even the Dragon Boxes were done in a one-by-one fashion (which probably explains why their designs are so different).

As for piracy, it's what re-exposed me to Dragon Ball again in 2012, but I had full intentions of buying it for real when I was able to (which I did, and then some).

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Re: Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

Post by Robo4900 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:57 am

KBABZ wrote:I think another factor putting them off is the sheer size of DB and DBZ, with 444 episodes to cover, which is over 177 hours worth of content, or seven and a half days of content. It's a truly galactic amount, and even the Dragon Boxes were done in a one-by-one fashion (which probably explains why their designs are so different).

As for piracy, it's what re-exposed me to Dragon Ball again in 2012, but I had full intentions of buying it for real when I was able to (which I did, and then some).
508 episodes. And you forgot the 3 TV specials, and the 17 movies.

But again, I don't think anything's putting them off, I think they just haven't seen enough demand for it yet for it to enter their minds.

The Dragon Boxes involved scanning all the film negatives(And some of the 1st/2nd gen prints too, for the OPs, EDs, and NEPs) for all 508 episodes, and both of Z's TV specials, and all 17 movies. And that was back in 2003-2005. No reason they can't do it again in HD. The only limiting factor is that they haven't had any incentive to do it yet.
Last edited by Robo4900 on Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

Post by KBABZ » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:01 am

Robo4900 wrote:The Dragon Boxes involved scanning all the film negatives(And some of the 1st/2nd gen prints too, for the OPs, EDs, and NEPs) for all 508 episodes, and both of Z's TV specials, and all 17 movies. And that was back in 2003-2005. No reason they can't do it again in HD. The only limiting factor is that they haven't had any incentive to do it yet.
I think for them the motivating factor was that Dragon Ball simply didn't have any home release in Japan until then, which justified their remastering process. I also think that having a current show that's doing well (it's on track to surpass the original DB and will soon double GT's count) means that they don't see a need to also go back and mine the archive, as that'd be a waste of money they could put into Super and other productions.

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Re: Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

Post by Robo4900 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:05 am

KBABZ wrote:I think for them the motivating factor was that Dragon Ball simply didn't have any home release in Japan until then, which justified their remastering process. I also think that having a current show that's doing well (it's on track to surpass the original DB and will soon double GT's count) means that they don't see a need to also go back and mine the archive, as that'd be a waste of money they could put into Super and other productions.
Exactly. There's only one way of buying the Dragon Ball anime in Japan, and that's the Dragon Boxes. As yet, there hasn't been any reason for them to think about doing anything further. There isn't anything concrete stopping them from doing a nice, proper HD release, but there's nothing motivating them to do it yet.

If you want Toei to do a proper 4:3, grainy HD release(For a shiny, clean, new version, you watch Kai; this would be the original, warts and all), try to get the whole fandom to push for it; I don't expect such a fan effort to make any progress soon, but who knows, in a few years, if enough people get on board with this, it might get enough traction for Toei to do it. No harm in trying, at least.
And it would mean that, for the first time since the Funimation Dragon Boxes, an official release would be out that would be a better option than what the pirates would be offering. I'm sure Toei would love that.
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Re: Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

Post by KBABZ » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:50 pm

Robo4900 wrote:If you want Toei to do a proper 4:3, grainy HD release(For a shiny, clean, new version, you watch Kai; this would be the original, warts and all), try to get the whole fandom to push for it; I don't expect such a fan effort to make any progress soon, but who knows, in a few years, if enough people get on board with this, it might get enough traction for Toei to do it. No harm in trying, at least.
And it would mean that, for the first time since the Funimation Dragon Boxes, an official release would be out that would be a better option than what the pirates would be offering. I'm sure Toei would love that.
This has me wondering: what are Blu-Ray sales like in Japan compared to DVD and digital streaming sites? If Blu-Ray is unpopular and Toei considers Dragon Ball in HD to be functionally useless considering how old it is (which is misguided, but they think in odd ways) that would explain why they haven't made any efforts to make an HD release of the show.

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Re: Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:47 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:If you want Toei to do a proper 4:3, grainy HD release(For a shiny, clean, new version, you watch Kai; this would be the original, warts and all), try to get the whole fandom to push for it; I don't expect such a fan effort to make any progress soon, but who knows, in a few years, if enough people get on board with this, it might get enough traction for Toei to do it. No harm in trying, at least.
And it would mean that, for the first time since the Funimation Dragon Boxes, an official release would be out that would be a better option than what the pirates would be offering. I'm sure Toei would love that.
This has me wondering: what are Blu-Ray sales like in Japan compared to DVD and digital streaming sites? If Blu-Ray is unpopular and Toei considers Dragon Ball in HD to be functionally useless considering how old it is (which is misguided, but they think in odd ways) that would explain why they haven't made any efforts to make an HD release of the show.
Kai is essentially HD DB (Z).
Z on BD would be worthless in Japan. Z is old, 291 episodes long, long running shows have a poor history of selling hence why they rely heavily on other rev streams. It's not going to sell well at all the DBOXES had a ridiculous RRP lord knows what price potential BDs will retail at. On top of that they have other efforts on animating modern DB to instead to worry about.

As fans it sucks but from a business perspective it makes absolute sense and I don't blame them at all.

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Re: Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

Post by Metalwario64 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:20 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Kai is essentially HD DB (Z).
Z on BD would be worthless in Japan. Z is old, 291 episodes long, long running shows have a poor history of selling hence why they rely heavily on other rev streams. It's not going to sell well at all the DBOXES had a ridiculous RRP lord knows what price potential BDs will retail at. On top of that they have other efforts on animating modern DB to instead to worry about.

As fans it sucks but from a business perspective it makes absolute sense and I don't blame them at all.
From what kei17 said a few years ago, it's pretty much impossible to buy Kai in Japan anymore, so it's definitely not a fitting replacement for Z on Blu-ray over there.
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Re: Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

Post by floofychan333 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:53 pm

Everyone pirated DBS before it came on FUNi Now and Crunchyroll and nobody had an issue with that. Apparently watching things online is ok if they aren't available legally in your country though the majority of people my age watch anime online because most of us don't have steady incomes or even credit cards and if we do have money we're usually saving it for something or the stupid ones blow it. I openly admit I watched DB and DBZ online but I am collecting the DVDs and manga so I can own them myself and have a consistent way of watching/reading. For the record, when I say online, I mean on sites that people upload anime on.
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Re: Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

Post by NintendoBlaze53 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:43 am

I am 100% against piracy at any chance I can. If people insist on piracy I at least hope they use torrents as opposed to illegal streaming sites. Pay no one as opposed to paying thieves. I've been collecting physical anime for years, pay my monthly Crunchyroll subscription and have recently started getting into merchandise. I do my part.

I can not deny however that the fans often can make a superior product to official companies in many cases. Especially Dragon Ball, the fans have released/created better releases then some of Funimation or Toei. Dragon Box releases which are either never released or OoP outside of Japan. Japanese Broadcast audio showing the fans care about this series more then Toei do. Kai Yamamoto Revival Project making available what legally cannot and in my opinion perfecting Kai. Also the numerous fan cuts which aim to capture the show and films in a new way such as Dragon Ball Recut, Battle of Gods Kikuchi or Faulconer edits, most of which are created by fans on this site.

In the case of fan projects like these, I thank the fans for all their effort and know this is the only way to make their projects available. As someone who has purchased multiple Dragon Ball releases throughout the years, I have done my part to support the official release and I feel that allows me to indulge in these fan projects.
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Re: Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:32 am

The truth is that at the end of the day, every argument falls really flat and people justify it for purely selfish reasons. The truth is that the creator(s) have exclusive authority to determine who gets their product, how they get their product, and what quality the product will be in. None of us have the right to a perfect DB release, none of us have the right to determine what is satisfactory for us and what is not

A cartoon series or manga are not natural rights, they are legally protected properties -- properties as in they are 100% owned and the owner has full and indivisible rights to make all decisions on the property as they see fit. In the end, every fan excuse for piracy boils down to selfishness. "I want better quality than what they give," "I want a version they haven't released," "I don't want to pay lots of money." Hey, regardless, piracy is illegal and is only done out of pure selfishness. It's just a fact. So if we're going to try to justify it, we can't lie to ourselves and must own up to the fact that isn't some grand revolution or rebellion against anyone, it's us whining. "But I really want a better version" is not a good excuse to go over the owners head. Again, nobody has the right to get the subjective "perfect" version of an anime. I just hope people accept that and don't lie to themselves. Otherwise, if you do it or not, I really don't care.

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Re: Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:43 pm

Has anyone suggested just, I dunno, not watching the show if you can't get it legally? Just move on with your life?

I dunno, just a thought.
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Re: Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

Post by Choujin Daizenshuu » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:02 am

I look at it this way:

Japan owes me nothing. Toei owes me nothing. FUNimation owes me nothing.

I'm not the target demographic for Dragon Ball, regardless of how popular the property is here. Japan has no obligation to give me Dragon Ball or any other Japanese cartoon and using fansubs does not put me in a better bargaining position.

No amount of pirating is going to change that, period.

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