Pirating Dragon Ball (discussion)

[bigray]

I guess for me, at the end of the day. If there's something I want, I'm going to find a way to get it. I'm happy to pay, I'm also happy to pirate if there's no paid option. I'm happy to look through the neighbors window while he watches his pirated version. I'm happy for toei to invite me to their studio and let me watch some of their episodes for free.

So it depends what's available for me. But like fuck I'm going to pretend that if they banned DBS or even ceased airing it in Australia that I would be like 'ok, I'll just wait for it to come out on DVD and order it from America and watch it later... 1 year later...'

I'll be getting hit with spoilers every week on Facebook, new forms, new characters, new memes that only people who watched the show would understand....

[Zillamon51]

I watch new episodes of Super on YouTube every week. I know those uploads are not official, but Super is literally the only anime I watch. I'm not going to subscribe to a service for one show.

When they start bundling collections on Blu-ray, I'll buy them.

[TheGreatness25]

So is everyone admitting that they pirate for purely selfish reasons, like I said earlier? Because there is no unselfish reason. I'm just making sure that everyone is aware that they are not entitled to watch the series for any reason, whether it be because they don't want to pay for it, they don't like how it looks, or they can't get it where they live. Besides the legal aspects of it, I just want to make sure that nobody is delusional enough to think that they are doing it for any reason other than selfishness.

[Cure Dragon 255]

What if someone from a third world country pirated it to show it to unprivileged children? I know this hasnt happened but what would you say then??

[TheGreatness25]

What if someone from a third world country pirated it to show it to unprivileged children? I know this hasnt happened but what would you say then??

I'd say that's still a selfish reason. No person on the face of the Earth -- no matter what social standing, no matter what location, no matter who -- has a right to view an artistic work that someone else created (excluding the work being part of a legal lapse of ownership known as "public domain"). When a book, a movie, a TV show, a cartoon, a painting, a song, a video game, or anything else that has been created by a person straight from imagination and through hard work, there is absolutely zero obligation from that creator to share his or her work in any way that he or she does not choose to. It is up to the creator to determine how to distribute the work, whom to distribute it to, and where to distribute it. Akira Toriyama gave it to Toei, who as owners, determined where the series is to be spread. Now, companies like Funimation are "owners" in the sense that they have the right to determine what quality they put out, how they distribute, and where they distribute to. Toei also chose how they want to distribute the product (through the Dragon Box/singles). The owners themselves, and the networks that they created for the purpose of distribution, are the sole right-holders to make decisions about how to distribute the work that, for all intents and purposes, they own.

This is a work of art, not a freedom. It is not a natural resource nor natural law that everyone should be entitled to. It has a creator who has strict rights in determining who, what, when, where, and how the work of art is to be displayed, shared, or what have you. Thus, there is zero justification for sharing this work of art that goes beyond pure selfishness. In the end, it comes down to, "I want to see it," "I don't want to pay too much money for it," "I want a nicer version of it." And that becomes clouded, and in a lot of people's minds, it turns into, "I deserve to have it," or "I have a right to it." Nobody has a right to it in any form. Thus, my argument still stands that it is only for purely selfish reasons that anyone would pirate anything.

If I filmed the most incredible movie in the world and showed it to a room full of people who liked it, but decided that I wanted to just keep it for myself, like freaking hell does anyone else in the world have the right to see it.

I think the big problem is that people get way too blinded by their fandom. I think that people stop seeing these things as a work of art that have an owner, and almost see them as this thing that deserves to be shared with everyone. Now, with that out of the way, I understand why pirating exists, I understand what people's intentions are with it, and I understand why people can almost justify it in their minds. But please, as all of those people embark on this illegal venture, please, please, please do not lie to yourself and be grounded in reality enough to know that it is only for selfishness and nothing else. That is why pirating cannot be "justified." Because to "justify" it would mean that it serves a greater purpose. You cannot justify stealing a car by saying, "Well I don't have one and couldn't afford one, so I just stoke this one from a used car lot that's been standing here for three years; nobody is affected by it." That doesn't fly and neither does pirating. While I wholeheartedly sympathize with everyone who wants a better version of the series that they hold so dear, the fact of the matter is that there's not a soul on this planet that has the right to it, especially if it extends beyond the parameters that the owner has decided to set. Legally, if you own a DVD, a Blu-ray, a CD, a VHS tape, hey, go nuts, it's yours. You can sell that thing wherever and to whomever. But if you think that you can rip from it and start distributing all willy-nilly, there's a problem.

Again, I just hope that people are being real with themselves.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Wait what? So the fact our hypothetical pirate paid for the copy he shows to said unpriviliged children makes turns his actions from "Selfish" to "Not Selfish" just because he is law abiding? I dont think you know what Selfish is and how its different from Illegal or non law abiding.

Sorry if this comes across as rude or too heated, I really didnt intend for it to come across that way.

[TheGreatness25]

Wait what? So the fact our hypothetical pirate paid for the copy he shows to said unpriviliged children makes turns his actions from "Selfish" to "Not Selfish" just because he is law abiding? I dont think you know what Selfish is and how its different from Illegal or non law abiding.

Sorry if this comes across as rude or too heated, I really didnt intend for it to come across that way.

Your comment doesn't come off that way at all. I hope my comments don't either. The nature of what I'm typing itself seems pretty aggressive, but that is not how I intend it at all, that's just a circumstance of what I'm writing about.

Don't misunderstand what I'm saying. Those who receive the series in a way that bypasses the owners' intentions, are doing it for selfish reasons. You can make a Robin Hood type case of doing it not for themselves but for someone else, but that doesn't change the fact that a conscious decision was made that somehow, someone was entitled to this series and it didn't really matter what the owner had to say about it. That is selfish. It doesn't mean that such an act is not extremely nice, or that you can't sympathize with the act, but at the end of the day, it can still be viewed as selfish because this person will receive joy from the act without paying consideration to the owners' decisions on how to distribute the series.

So even in your extreme case that demonstrates kindness, just look at some of the answers on here for a minute and make the argument that they're not grounded in selfishness. Even if you don't have a penny to your name and you live in a closet with a computer that picks up Wi-Fi, you still don't have the right to get the series, really. As horrible as that situation may be, pirating would still be for that person's enjoyment without consideration for the owner's wishes on how to distribute Dragon Ball.

That is a case that can be made for anyone on this planet. Nobody has the right to view a work of art against the owner's wishes. Not a soul. It's not a right, it is a privilege that is wholly dictated by that owner. No matter how heart-wrenching the situation is, at the end of the day, pirating is nothing more than selfishness. Even if that joy comes from doing it for someone else, it's still selfishness. Let's go back to my car example -- "I stole that car because my very poor great grandma doesn't have one and nobody can afford to get it for her, so I just stole this one from a used car lot that's been standing here for three years; nobody is affected by it." You really feel for this person, but don't let that sympathy lift the selfish and criminal aspect of the act.

And again, it is because of the sympathy and understanding that I have in why people would do it, that I personally don't care who pirates the series or why they do it for. I just want people to be grounded in the fact that it's selfish, that's all. I don't want people pretending for a minute that they're justified in doing what they do. More so, I mostly want people with the means of getting the series legally, to understand just how selfish they're being. This one goes out to the people that can afford the series, but use excuses like, "Well the quality is not good enough" or, "The price tag is too high" to try and justify it somehow. Nope, no justification. You're just being selfish. While I completely sympathize with a person in the situation that Cure Dragon 255 pointed out, I have absolutely no sympathy for someone pirating the series when they have it available at their fingertips. In the U.S., we have three complete releases (orange bricks, Blu-rays, and Dragon Boxes) that are as simple to come across as doing a search on a shopping site. We have a relatively cheap (like $50/year) streaming service that will give you all of the Dragon Ball your little heart can handle. And yet, there's an excuse. "I don't want to pay for it" or "I don't like the quality." I can somewhat sympathize with not being financially able to pay for the series, I get that... then again, I had a low-paying job and expenses (a girlfriend to take out, a car, etc.) when I bought the Dragon Boxes (including Japanese ones, which set me back a lot), so that was a sacrifice that I made to legally have the series that I love. But, I get the financial aspect of it. But I think that using the "It's not good enough quality" excuse is complete nonsense and I don't sympathize with that at all. Which is what I wanted to point out this entire time -- don't confuse selfishness with some sort of great crusade to boycott the product until there's a better version of it. That's silly. Nobody's entitled to anything, least of all, a higher quality version of it.

And then, I have a completely other point. If everyone shared this mindset that somehow, we shouldn't have to pay a high price for this product (subjectively, even $25 for it could be seen as "too much" after all), or that we shouldn't have to pay for a "crappy quality" version of the series, companies like Funimation would have absolutely no reason to believe that DB is popular and we'd get nothing out of them. Even if they knew that DB was popular, if they weren't making any profits off of it, they wouldn't even bother with the project. On a grander scale, if they weren't making any money off of their official releases, there would really be no reason to do anything with the company, and Funimation would close down. In fact, every media distribution company would have no reason to exist in such a hypothetical world. Basically the only thing that media would be able to hold onto is TV rights. I mean, think about it. It's a crazy, very stretched concept, but really, imagine if everyone in the world was able to "justify" pirating to themselves. They wouldn't have anything left to pirate.

Now, I'm not immune to this. When it comes the Westwood or Blue Water version of the series, I can relate. I can definitely see why someone would pirate. But at the end of the day, even with myself, I have to admit that yes, there's no release of those versions and yes, I'd definitely pay for them... but the owner simply doesn't want to distribute. So in my selfishness for wanting it, I would be perfectly fine going against the owners' wishes to get the series. And yeah, that's selfish. So, I'm not immune to this concept, believe me.

Sorry for the really long post. I'm not pointing out anyone in particular. I'm not trying to be rude, aggressive, or mean, despite how it might come off. I know it's not a black and white thing, and I will once again point out, that I do not care if anyone pirates the series or not -- I'm not the internet police looking to take swift action against anyone that violates copyright laws *grumble grumble*. And in my opinion, there are understandable (notice I'm not saying "good") reasons for pirating, and absolutely terrible reasons for pirating. But, at the end of the day, I truly believe that no matter what reason there is for, it it's a selfish one. "Selfish" doesn't necessarily mean that it's terrible, but everyone should know where they stand in this.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Thank god you arent agressive either! Polite discussion is love.

[bigray]

TLDR;

All pirating = selfishness

[Kakacarrottop]

Now, I'm not immune to this. When it comes the Westwood or Blue Water version of the series, I can relate. I can definitely see why someone would pirate. But at the end of the day, even with myself, I have to admit that yes, there's no release of those versions and yes, I'd definitely pay for them... but the owner simply doesn't want to distribute. So in my selfishness for wanting it, I would be perfectly fine going against the owners' wishes to get the series. And yeah, that's selfish. So, I'm not immune to this concept, believe me.

It wouldn't really be piracy If you just downloaded the audio of those dubs as an mp3 or something, since that isn't Toei's property and the actual owner of the copyright is unclear

[TheGreatness25]

Now, I'm not immune to this. When it comes the Westwood or Blue Water version of the series, I can relate. I can definitely see why someone would pirate. But at the end of the day, even with myself, I have to admit that yes, there's no release of those versions and yes, I'd definitely pay for them... but the owner simply doesn't want to distribute. So in my selfishness for wanting it, I would be perfectly fine going against the owners' wishes to get the series. And yeah, that's selfish. So, I'm not immune to this concept, believe me.

It wouldn't really be piracy If you just downloaded the audio of those dubs as an mp3 or something, since that isn't Toei's property and the actual owner of the copyright is unclear

Why is the owner of the copyright not clear? lol I'm sure whoever owns it knows who they are.

[Danfun64]

Nobody has the right to view a work of art against the owner's wishes. Not a soul. It's not a right, it is a privilege that is wholly dictated by that owner.

I take it you're one of those people who think DRM is completely just and that Barbera Streisand was in the right for trying to prevent that picture of her estate to be visible online. Once something is released to the public, especially nowadays, it's almost impossible to "take it back". Much media has been preserved that is no longer being sold in any way. In the case of old software and video games, a huge amount has been preserved 1:1 thanks to how that kind of stuff works. Rom sites are very easy to find, and (un)fortunately make things a lot more convenient for pirates than for the people who want to by things legitimately, like finding cartridges on eBay or using services like the Virtual Console..... oh wait, even VC can be questionable.

What do you think of backups? Are they as bad as piracy? Both are made by circumventing copy protection/DRM, something wish most of the time seems "against the owner's wishes". What about platforms where making backups or other questionable activities are the only way to watch certain types of media, like Blu-Ray on Linux. It wouldn't surprise me if many of these "owners" didn't know that open source existed. If the more "extreme" linux/unix (as in not using windows or mac ever) people had an 100% legal way to watch Blu-Rays without ripping them, there's a good chance they might be willing to oblige, but "dirty hackers want to steal your babies" is what those "owners" think is going on.

So is it selfish to want the right to view a work of art against the owner's wishes? Yes, absolutely... but it's also selfish for the owner to want distribution limited so that certain markets can't acquire them legally. I don't think there's a true "selfless" choice in the matter, much as how I don't think true selflessness really exists... but I digress.

[Tian]

Let's suppose I am someone from a territory where no DB series was released (Georgia), I want to watch it but since the series was never released in my country, I have to watch it illegally through internet but doing so, I think I am making the company (TOEI) lose money even though that company does no have influence under my territory.

Is that okay or not?

[TheGreatness25]

[spoiler]

Nobody has the right to view a work of art against the owner's wishes. Not a soul. It's not a right, it is a privilege that is wholly dictated by that owner.

[/spoiler] I take it you're one of those people who think DRM is completely just and that Barbera Streisand was in the right for trying to prevent that picture of her estate to be visible online. Once something is released to the public, especially nowadays, it's almost impossible to "take it back". Much media has been preserved that is no longer being sold in any way. In the case of old software and video games, a huge amount has been preserved 1:1 thanks to how that kind of stuff works. Rom sites are very easy to find, and (un)fortunately make things a lot more convenient for pirates than for the people who want to by things legitimately, like finding cartridges on eBay or using services like the Virtual Console..... oh wait, even VC can be questionable.

What do you think of backups? Are they as bad as piracy? Both are made by circumventing copy protection/DRM, something wish most of the time seems "against the owner's wishes". What about platforms where making backups or other questionable activities are the only way to watch certain types of media, like Blu-Ray on Linux. It wouldn't surprise me if many of these "owners" didn't know that open source existed. If the more "extreme" linux/unix (as in not using windows or mac ever) people had an 100% legal way to watch Blu-Rays without ripping them, there's a good chance they might be willing to oblige, but "dirty hackers want to steal your babies" is what those "owners" think is going on.

So is it selfish to want the right to view a work of art against the owner's wishes? Yes, absolutely... but it's also selfish for the owner to want distribution limited so that certain markets can't acquire them legally. I don't think there's a true "selfless" choice in the matter, much as how I don't think true selflessness really exists... but I digress.

My point is that people need to understand that they're being selfish when they are pirating. I went on to explain sympathy for them and all that jazz. And you brought up the owners' selfishness. Well, they have the right to be, it's their hard work. My entire post was to kind of pump the breaks on some people, because a lot of people think that they're entitled and fully justified to pirate things. That is incorrect. So, that's what my post addressed. Say whatever you want, nobody has the natural right to access someone else's creative work against their wishes. Period.

[Danfun64]

Say whatever you want, nobody has the natural right to access someone else's creative work against their wishes. Period.

Under that logic, things like VCR's and DVR's shouldn't exist, and the people who let MST3K license their films for the purposes of mockery were sell-outs at best...am I right in saying you don't like DBZ Abridged or similar shows that use copyrighted content in a questionably legal way?

[Cure Dragon 255]

Why do you need to bring TFS into this? And this time I agree with the Greatness.

[bigray]

Say whatever you want, nobody has the natural right to access someone else's creative work against their wishes. Period.

Under that logic, things like VCR's and DVR's shouldn't exist, and the people who let MST3K license their films for the purposes of mockery were sell-outs at best...am I right in saying you don't like DBZ Abridged or similar shows that use copyrighted content in a questionably legal way?

I'm going to guess that he does like abridged. What he's trying to say is that everyone is selfish, he might not be against it himself. But as long as he doesn't deceive himself and acknowledges that he's selfish and is not entitled to having it.

[TheGreatness25]

I actually do enjoy TFS, so way to reach for conclusions there. I will say this again: I don't care who pirates what. Nobody is exempt from wanting what they shouldn't have. Some people act on it, some people don't. But what I want to get across is that nobody is entitled to it, so there is no justification for it. Don't twist around my message.

[alakazam^]

Lots of great points have been made so there's not much I can say about this topic. I don't condone piracy but have done my fair share of it, like everyone else, at some points in time.

What I want to focus on is the role of the ones being stolen from. It being right, wrong, immoral, legal, illegal, etc is just part of what I call "the game of society", so it doesn't really matter at the end of the day. What matters is: what is being done to prevent/punish people from pirating stuff? Societies at large have deemed it illegal but there's no efficient system to fight it. If I choose to go to an illegal streaming site right now and watch an episode of a random anime I won't ever be punished for it.

Creators and publishers need to address this if they feel harmed. If there are no consequences, no matter how much namecalling (manipulation) there is, then people will eat their cake all the same. It's really not about whether people should or not do it, it's about having a system that can actually stop them from doing it. If there isn't, societies are saying it's ok.

[TheGreatness25]

Lots of great points have been made so there's not much I can say about this topic. I don't condone piracy but have done my fair share of it, like everyone else, at some points in time.

What I want to focus on is the role of the ones being stolen from. It being right, wrong, immoral, legal, illegal, etc is just part of what I call "the game of society", so it doesn't really matter at the end of the day. What matters is: what is being done to prevent/punish people from pirating stuff? Societies at large have deemed it illegal but there's no efficient system to fight it. If I choose to go to an illegal streaming site right now and watch an episode of a random anime I won't ever be punished for it.

Creators and publishers need to address this if they feel harmed. If there are no consequences, no matter how much namecalling (manipulation) there is, then people will eat their cake all the same. It's really not about whether people should or not do it, it's about having a system that can actually stop them from doing it. If there isn't, societies are saying it's ok.

There used to be pretty hefty punishments for people who downloaded (and I suppose uploaded) copyrighted materials to programs/sites like Kazza (sp?), Napster, etc. I know a few people who got cease and desist emails. Actually, it's funny, but my dad got one from 21st Century Fox for some crappy movie that nobody ever downloaded. We weren't careful with our WiFi protocols and after we beefed up the security on that, the issue never repeated itself.

From what I understand, they found that they mostly caught a bunch of kids (high school, etc.) who couldn't pay the ridiculous prices that they were trying to sue for. So, they're not as crazy about enforcing these regulations now. They are trying their best, though, to deter such behavior by offering legal streaming for nearly all media so that people wouldn't have to resort to illegal downloading. $10/month for streaming music or video is a relatively low price to pay, so they're banking on that being enough to get people to give them business and receive some money for it, as opposed to not getting anything when it's illegally downloaded.