ABED wrote:How long do you think this dynamic should last? Goku is the main character after all. If one is stronger than the other, it's always a transient advantage. This is not actually much a new situation you are claiming.
I don't know, that's up to the writers. Just make something out of it. The times Vegeta surpassed Goku, they never used it to explore his relationship with Goku some more.
Goku has never been the strongest character in the series for an extended period of time nor does he need to be just because he's the main character.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
As someone who really enjoys Resurrection F, the Golden Freeza Arc is terrible in comparison.
I mean, they're both terrible, but why is the arc worse? Because it has bad animation?
The movie was not horrible, one. Two, the movie is centered around action because Battle of Gods didn’t have much of it. If you wanted action, Resurrection F was for you. If you go in looking for the story perspective, you will find it terrible. What story could you have done honestly? The Golden Freeza Arc was ruined with the inclusion of Trunks, Goten, Gotenks, Ginew, and Piccolo dying for no reason. It ruined what was originally in the film: the "intensity", even though there wasn’t much of it anymore when Beerus and Whis showed up. Toriyama wrote Resurrection F with the mindset of more action than narrative and he succeeded.
Bullza wrote:I'm sure it'll be good, dunno if it will be better than Resurrection F though.
Hopefully it's more akin to that than Battle of Gods which was too light hearted and padded with filler.
Since this movie seems to be more like Resurrection F with the "origin of the Saiyans' strength", I hope to see great battles but add a little more narrative than what Resurrection F gave us.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
Meshack wrote: If you wanted action, Resurrection F was for you.
Yes, and it was boring and stiff, with terrible CGI sprinkled in, so I may as well take the anime's story and character improvements, at least that way the storyline is somewhat worthwhile.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:[Sarcasm] Nice to see people are so very supportive of the series creator branching out into new ideas and concepts and looking forward to what bold new directions can be taken with this franchise that was stagnate less than 10 years prior.
Toriyama going back to explain Saiyan stuff isn't new or bold, nor is it unique since Saiyan's have gotten this treatment already. There's also the little fact Toriyama is aaawwwffffuuuullll at explaining backstory stuff, he's never done it well and I doubt he'll magically become competent at it now.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
ABED wrote:How long do you think this dynamic should last? Goku is the main character after all. If one is stronger than the other, it's always a transient advantage. This is not actually much a new situation you are claiming.
I don't know, that's up to the writers. Just make something out of it. The times Vegeta surpassed Goku, they never used it to explore his relationship with Goku some more.
Goku has never been the strongest character in the series for an extended period of time nor does he need to be just because he's the main character.
Toriyama did explore it. The nature of Vegeta's entire relationship during that time was one of envy and oneupsmanship. What are you looking for?
No, Goku isn't the strongest all the time, but that's usually due to the antagonist being stronger. It's like you are simply a Vegeta fan who wants him to be stronger. Even if that was so, Goku would still get the spotlight.
he's never done it well and I doubt he'll magically become competent at it now.
I wouldn't say never.
I wish Saiyan history wasn't the focus of the movie, but I'm at least hoping that it will not be boring.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
ABED wrote:Toriyama did explore it. The nature of Vegeta's entire relationship during that time was one of envy and oneupsmanship. What are you looking for?
Yes, and that was fine and over with. What's their relationship now? The same. The rivalry is stagnant. Mix things up a bit or stop putting so much focus on their rivalry and retire the dynamic.
ABED wrote:No, Goku isn't the strongest all the time, but that's usually due to the antagonist being stronger. It's like you are simply a Vegeta fan who wants him to be stronger. Even if that was so, Goku would still get the spotlight.
Goku's my favorite character in the series but I don't need him to be in the spotlight 100% of the time to like him.
ABED wrote:Toriyama did explore it. The nature of Vegeta's entire relationship during that time was one of envy and oneupsmanship. What are you looking for?
Yes, and that was fine and over with. What's their relationship now? The same. The rivalry is stagnant. Mix things up a bit or stop putting so much focus on their rivalry and retire the dynamic.
ABED wrote:No, Goku isn't the strongest all the time, but that's usually due to the antagonist being stronger. It's like you are simply a Vegeta fan who wants him to be stronger. Even if that was so, Goku would still get the spotlight.
Goku's my favorite character in the series but I don't need him to be in the spotlight 100% of the time to like him.
That's like saying Sherlock Holmes doesn't need to be in the spotlight all the time. Of course he doesn't, but he needs to be in the spotlight vast majority of the time. DB isn't a story about an ensemble.
I still don't know what you are asking for regarding their rivalry. They went from Vegeta being jealous and destructive in his pursuit of being better than Goku, then he had an epiphany. He still wants to be the best but it's no longer an affront to his self esteem to acknowledge if Goku is better.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
ABED wrote:I still don't know what you are asking for regarding their rivalry. They went from Vegeta being jealous and destructive in his pursuit of being better than Goku, then he had an epiphany. He still wants to be the best but it's no longer an affront to his self esteem to acknowledge if Goku is better.
How is it hard to understand that I want something different? Vegeta gaining the upper-hand because he let go of his obsession and Goku being the one that has to play catch-up is new and interesting. What they're doing now is the same thing they were doing 20 years ago. It's not new, different or interesting. It's the same old rehashed plot.
So Vegeta is the strongest but he's not the central figure? What role does he serve to the story?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Noah wrote:I hope the movie is like Super Android 13, full action packed and with a lot of generic, uninteresting and forgettable characters
You're not adding anything worthwhile with such negative/sarcastic comments. Though I don't mind it that much, I kinda want people to come here to this thread. Please do not turn it into a Movie 15 thread. But let's be fair, that was a toxic thread for a toxic movie...
• We help! ... Hmm. Always get Autobots out of messes they get into. •
ABED wrote:So Vegeta is the strongest but he's not the central figure? What role does he serve to the story?
His role is to complement Goku in a fresh and interesting way. Just like every other character, or the vast majority, in this series has the role of complementing Goku.
I mean, was Gohan the central figure when he was the strongest? Are Beerus and Whis the central figures now?
Grimlock wrote:You're not adding anything worthwhile with such negative/sarcastic comments. Though I don't mind it that much, I kinda want people to come here to this thread. Please do not turn it into a Movie 15 thread. But let's be fair, that was a toxic thread for a toxic movie...
I was pretty much joking, mate... As I believe there's a small chance this movie to be bad as some Toei original movies, not because of Toriyama he's not flawless (see RoF), but that I think they overcome the formula: strong bad guy appears, beat everyone else, Goku pulls something out his butt and defeat him.
And talking about toxic, man... The day Golden Freeza was leaked in the RoF thread, my god... I can not even describe how much hatred it has received
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
ABED wrote:So Vegeta is the strongest but he's not the central figure? What role does he serve to the story?
His role is to complement Goku in a fresh and interesting way. Just like every other character, or the vast majority, in this series has the role of complementing Goku.
I mean, was Gohan the central figure when he was the strongest? Are Beerus and Whis the central figures now?
Beerus isn't part of the group, whereas Vegeta is Goku's peer. He's Goku's teacher now, much like Muten Roshi. And yes, Gohan was made to be the central figure when he was the strongest.
And talking about toxic, man...
What constitutes toxic?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
ABED wrote:Beerus isn't part of the group, whereas Vegeta is Goku's peer. He's Goku's teacher now, much like Muten Roshi. And yes, Gohan was made to be the central figure when he was the strongest.
I know you don't watch Super but Beerus has been a part of the group since BoG. Whis is Goku's teacher, Beerus is his much more advanced peer. Now that I think about it, Beerus could easily fill the position I'm asking of Vegeta, which just makes the continued insistence on Goku and Vegeta's rivalry that much more unnecessary.
Gohan's position as the strongest and the story arc in which he was the strongest all revolved around Goku. He was still the central figure of the arc and Gohan's transformation merely complemented Goku's actions throughout the Cell Games, such as his insistence on having Gohan fight and his sacrifice later on.
