Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

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Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

Post by Bruma rabu » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:07 am

This question came to mind when I was reading some people defend the movie The last Jedi. I don't want to ruin the movie for those who still haven't seen it so I won't get into too much details but the movie revolves around the idea of "getting rid of the past" and replacing the old with the new. I was seeing a lot of people praising the movie on "expanding" the universe past the Skywalkers(hope that's not too spoilerish). George Lucas has said on multiple occasions that star wars is the story of the Skywalker family, but it seems the heads at Disney think other wise. Now back Dragon Ball, would it still be dragon ball with out Goku and co?

By the way in my opinion, no it will no longer be dragon ball with out Goku and co. I feel that dragon ball and star wars are similar in that they both seem to have an expansive universe but not really.
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Re: Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:09 am

Nope, the franchise would fail without Goku.

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Re: Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:38 am

Hmm, well, let's think on the examples we have throughout the series of just missing Goku, which we thankfully have a fair bit of thanks to his frequent absences. The biggest would be the majority of the Namek arc, the Garlic Jr. filler, the Bio-Broly movie, the Great Saiyaman arc and the GT special. I think they all work fairly well from a "Goku's not around" standpoint as the characters are strong enough to support the story without him. Namek in particular might have worked had Goku not showed up at all and Vegeta effectively took his place (although elements of the story would need obvious reshuffling for that to work).

As for it all working without any of the characters we know, I honestly think it could. Characters like Pan, Bardock, Caulifla, Kale and Cabba show potential in telling stories away from Z Fighters/Dragon Ball Gang considering how detached they are from the rest of the cast. A lot of what makes Dragon Ball Dragon Ball doesn't strictly apply to the characters we know and love (although they are a big part of it). We'd need a fighting/adventure angle, the Dragon Balls themselves, the future-from-the-80s/ancient China mash-up of a world, and preferably a bunch of puns for the names of everybody. The major hurdle with this idea is that audiences likely wouldn't have the patience to start with new characters cold turkey; the better way to go with the concept is to introduce them among the existing cast and then pivot to them for an arc if audiences really like them (which characters like Caulifla have the potential for). Otherwise it'd be seen as a bad move and the writers would double-down to sticking with the core cast more than ever.

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Re: Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

Post by Chuquita » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:10 am

Goku and co. are the only thing keeping me tethered to this franchise, so for me, yeah I guess for me Dragon Ball is Goku, his family, and friends. Rebooting with an entirely new cast would seem to me more like some lucky person got to make their OC's official characters. I'd stop caring and probably drop off this forum altogether. Updates would be less frequent to my DA and my tumblr. I'd cull the list of twitter accounts I check in on since a good number of them are ones I'm only following as dbs-related resources. I'd save money because I wouldn't be buying the dbs manga anymore.

It'd basically shutdown a lot of my involvement with DB back down to 2012 levels. Like I'd still be watching dbzabridged as it comes out (presuming that hasn't yet finished its run in this hypothetical) and I'd still draw fan-art, but I'd probably be drawing more original art than I am now since a lot of my current fan-art is based on "What's going on in Super atm?" and I wouldn't be following this total cast reboot the same way I don't follow Beat and Note's journey in the dbh mangas.

It's interesting to think about because the way I was falling out of db in 2012 was a more natural sort of "everyone else is leaving and nothing new Shuiesha-wise is coming out" way. This would be a more forced "well they replaced the characters I liked" kind of leave. Like when they changed the recipe for the crust in Totino's Pizza Rolls earlier this year. I was heartbroken when that happened! I'd loved eating those pizza rolls since as far back as I could remember, but the new crust is way too thick and has more of a whole wheat kind of taste that I stopped buying them altogether. Now I've since found new products to replace them (other companies make all kinds of similar products) but I guess my point is replacing something I already liked with something else never sits well with me. You wanna add more characters to the cast? Fine by me. Replace them and expect me to still spend precious time following the replacements' adventures instead? Nope. Sorry pal, no can do. I'll go find something else to watch altogether.
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Re: Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

Post by precita » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:28 am

Well ask yourself? Would you watch a prequel series about Roshi? A series about Bardock? A series set 100 years in the future with Goku Jr.? etc?

We've already seen other eras through flashbacks, specials and movies. Dragonball is no stranger to doing things without Goku.

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Re: Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

Post by sintzu » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:39 am

No, DB (and any other show) are who the characters are and without them they become something else, just with the same name. It would be if DB was something like Jojo where the main characters are always changing but to do that after so long would be a terrable move.
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Re: Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:42 am

Chuquita wrote:Goku and co. are the only thing keeping me tethered to this franchise, so for me, yeah I guess for me Dragon Ball is Goku, his family, and friends. Rebooting with an entirely new cast would seem to me more like some lucky person got to make their OC's official characters. I'd stop caring and probably drop off this forum altogether. Updates would be less frequent to my DA and my tumblr. I'd cull the list of twitter accounts I check in on since a good number of them are ones I'm only following as dbs-related resources. I'd save money because I wouldn't be buying the dbs manga anymore.
Don't worry, Goku is Dragon Ball for most other people too. Even Toriyama admitted only Goku can be the MC.
precita wrote:Well ask yourself? Would you watch a prequel series about Roshi? A series about Bardock? A series set 100 years in the future with Goku Jr.? etc?

We've already seen other eras through flashbacks, specials and movies. Dragonball is no stranger to doing things without Goku.
The answer is hell no, who cares about those guys? One offs are one thing but an entire series would be a total failure.

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Re: Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

Post by Bruma rabu » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:23 am

precita wrote:Well ask yourself? Would you watch a prequel series about Roshi? A series about Bardock? A series set 100 years in the future with Goku Jr.? etc?

We've already seen other eras through flashbacks, specials and movies. Dragonball is no stranger to doing things without Goku.
They could work but not as a long series, i could see OVA episodes being hits but nothing farther than that in my opinion.
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Re: Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:01 am

The short answer is no. Series couldn't exist without Goku alone. Gohan couldn't be the main character. Not even mentioning Goku Jr.
Dragon Ball needs Goku as a main character. Not his son, not his grandson.
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Re: Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

Post by ABED » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:27 am

Dragon Ball is Son Goku. No one else reflects the overall tone of the show better than him.
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Re: Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:40 am

Bruma rabu wrote:Now back Dragon Ball, would it still be dragon ball with out Goku and co?
We have seen works without Goku that were marvelous. Bardock's TV Special, Trunks' TV Special, Dragon Ball Online... Even Tarble's OVA, Goku was there but he wasn't the main figure there. That tells us that other characters can easily carry an entire saga on their shoulders without the massive appearance of Goku.

I've said once and I'll say again, if people needs a Goku figure on-screen to satisfy whatever they have for Goku, we have his clones: To the past, we have Bardock, to the future, we have Goten (although for Goten they would have to work harder to create a proper personality for him and to remove Goten from Trunks' shadow after decades of playing that role. But I think they can do it). A dark, more serious tone for Bardock (and we have evidences that it indeed works for Dragon Ball) and a more light-hearted saga for Goten.

Friends and family would appear occasionally, when plot needs them, to interact with the new main characters. No need to get rid of them, they can also serve a purpose, they can also talk, walk and etc on their own, they also don't need Goku.
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Re: Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

Post by MisteryOne » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:02 am

If done well, of course. It's more than possible to have a main cast focused on a new generation (Uub, Pan, Bra, Goten, Trunks) without making the rest of the cast like Goku, Vegeta and Gohan background character. Toriyama is just not interested (and he's also probably unable to do it seeing how he handled character in both the original run and with Super) on it and Toei doesn't have the guts to do it.
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Re: Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

Post by VegettoEX » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:48 am

Grimlock wrote:We have seen works without Goku that were marvelous. Bardock's TV Special, Trunks' TV Special, Dragon Ball Online... Even Tarble's OVA, Goku was there but he wasn't the main figure there. That tells us that other characters can easily carry an entire saga on their shoulders without the massive appearance of Goku.
Ignoring Dragon Ball Online -- which very few people here played in its native language during its original run, and which itself was an unfinished/unrealized product -- all of those instances are one-off stories. Furthermore, the Bardock and Trunks TV specials are stories in service of something else entirely; for Bardock, it's the Freeza arc, and for Trunks, it's the Cell arc. They don't stand alone, and both of them ultimately rely on Goku as their driving force (Goku's eventual fight / Goku's death resulting in the timeline).

You say these examples tell us that other characters can carry a "saga", but the proof is certainly not in the pudding. In the hands of a skilled storyteller? I think the characters in the series could have fascinating external arcs, and I might even really enjoy them.

But that's not actually the underlying question, whether they could be neat or fun or interesting or even just "good". The question is whether they would be Dragon Ball or not, to which I would answer an emphatic "no". They would have its title, its name, its story... but in all likelihood, not its underlying spirit.

That spirit is Goku.

And as I write all this, it sounds like I'm making out this story and this character and this author to be at some untouchable height, but it feels quite the opposite to me deep down. Dragon Ball is so simple. Goku is so simple. Even Toriyama is so simple. Without those three being together, it somehow compounds itself into something... else. Even at its lowest of lows, when it's Toriyama and Goku and Dragon Ball, it's absolutely still "Dragon Ball" in all that that means.
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Re: Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

Post by ABED » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:10 am

Another thing to think about is one of the reason the stories without Goku as the focus work is because they are one offs. It's like a recipe. It's not just about the ingredients, it's the amounts and ratios. It's not as simple as "This worked in this instance, ergo more is better."
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Re: Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:24 am

I think the pre-Captain Ginyu content of the Namek saga shows that the story can work without that. That one had a cast of Krillin, Gohan, Bulma, Vegeta and Frieza (plus his henchmen); Goku wouldn't arrive for a long time. The beloved Saiyan Training filler, whilst also showing Goku having antics on Snake Way and on Kaio's world, is primarily about Gohan's journey, and that worked very well. And as mentioned, the Garlic Jr. arc operated (to varying degrees of quality due to the writing) entirely without him as well. Goku may well have carried the story the entire time thus far, but I personally don't think he's the only one able to do that.

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Re: Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

Post by Basaku » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:50 am

VegettoEX wrote: That spirit is Goku.

And as I write all this, it sounds like I'm making out this story and this character and this author to be at some untouchable height, but it feels quite the opposite to me deep down. Dragon Ball is so simple. Goku is so simple. Even Toriyama is so simple. Without those three being together, it somehow compounds itself into something... else. Even at its lowest of lows, when it's Toriyama and Goku and Dragon Ball, it's absolutely still "Dragon Ball" in all that that means.
Except that it wasn't so simple, especially at its peak. Flanderization of DB (started by Toriyama himself in Buu arc) is not the same thing as Piccolo, Saiyan, Freeza, Cell sagas being action epics with cross-generational themes that would easily fit modern blockbusters for all ages, with themes and topics not so simple as sunday cartoon. That's just a fan's selective memory (fueled by Toriyama's decreased interest in storytelling)
KBABZ wrote:I think the pre-Captain Ginyu content of the Namek saga shows that the story can work without that. That one had a cast of Krillin, Gohan, Bulma, Vegeta and Frieza (plus his henchmen); Goku wouldn't arrive for a long time. The beloved Saiyan Training filler, whilst also showing Goku having antics on Snake Way and on Kaio's world, is primarily about Gohan's journey, and that worked very well. And as mentioned, the Garlic Jr. arc operated (to varying degrees of quality due to the writing) entirely without him as well. Goku may well have carried the story the entire time thus far, but I personally don't think he's the only one able to do that.
And I agree with this fully. It was the fantastic 'supporting' cast moving the story for countless episodes while Goku just sitting on a ship. Doesn't matter that the story was awaiting for Goku's arrival, the events were happening and changing rapidly on Namek and that was without Goku's involvement. And of course Future Trunks and his entire deal is another proof of DB being able to exist outside Goku. The universe and cast encemble is simply good and rich enough for it to happen and that's also a testimony to Toriyama's achievement.

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Re: Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

Post by Hawk9211 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:22 pm

A story is about its cGoku represents the best of dragon ball simple,martial arts,humor,fun and engaging.That is why he is irreplaceable as a protagonist.I would still watch some sort of spin off and it could be good.Vegetto EX said it better:
Bardock and Trunks TV specials are stories in service of something else entirely; for Bardock, it's the Freeza arc, and for Trunks, it's the Cell arc. They don't stand alone, and both of them ultimately rely on Goku as their driving force (Goku's eventual fight / Goku's death resulting in the timeline).

You say these examples tell us that other characters can carry a "saga", but the proof is certainly not in the pudding. In the hands of a skilled storyteller? I think the characters in the series could have fascinating external arcs, and I might even really enjoy them.

But that's not actually the underlying question, whether they could be neat or fun or interesting or even just "good". The question is whether they would be Dragon Ball or not, to which I would answer an emphatic "no". They would have its title, its name, its story... but in all likelihood, not its underlying spirit.

That spirit is Goku.

And as I write all this, it sounds like I'm making out this story and this character and this author to be at some untouchable height, but it feels quite the opposite to me deep down. Dragon Ball is so simple. Goku is so simple. Even Toriyama is so simple. Without those three being together, it somehow compounds itself into something... else. Even at its lowest of lows, when it's Toriyama and Goku and Dragon Ball, it's absolutely still "Dragon Ball" in all that that means.
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Re: Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

Post by ToshioWrites » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:25 pm

Dragon Ball without Goku doesn't work, it just doesn't

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Re: Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

Post by sintzu » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:33 pm

KBABZ wrote:I think the pre-Captain Ginyu content of the Namek saga shows that the story can work without that. That one had a cast of Krillin, Gohan, Bulma, Vegeta and Frieza. Goku may well have carried the story the entire time thus far, but I personally don't think he's the only one able to do that.
That's not the whole story though as Goku plays a huge role later on. Even the Cell/androids arc which uses Goku the least still has his presence heavily felt throughout and most likely wouldn't have been as good as it was without him despite his reduced role (I can't imagine DB without his epic fight against Cell :thumbup: ).

Even with those 2 examples somewhat applying to none Goku parts in the story, that's not what the topic about, it's about a story without Goku AND his friends. Also keep in mind that those parts are just that, parts in Goku's story, not an entire new story with just new never before seen characters.

Goku is not only the face, heart & soul of DB but I'd go as far as to say he's that of the entire Shonen genre. Goku is to Shonen what Superman is to comics.
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Re: Would it still be Dragon Ball with out Goku, his family, and friends?

Post by ABED » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:54 pm

Basaku wrote:
VegettoEX wrote: That spirit is Goku.

And as I write all this, it sounds like I'm making out this story and this character and this author to be at some untouchable height, but it feels quite the opposite to me deep down. Dragon Ball is so simple. Goku is so simple. Even Toriyama is so simple. Without those three being together, it somehow compounds itself into something... else. Even at its lowest of lows, when it's Toriyama and Goku and Dragon Ball, it's absolutely still "Dragon Ball" in all that that means.
Except that it wasn't so simple, especially at its peak. Flanderization of DB (started by Toriyama himself in Buu arc) is not the same thing as Piccolo, Saiyan, Freeza, Cell sagas being action epics with cross-generational themes that would easily fit modern blockbusters for all ages, with themes and topics not so simple as sunday cartoon. That's just a fan's selective memory (fueled by Toriyama's decreased interest in storytelling)
KBABZ wrote:I think the pre-Captain Ginyu content of the Namek saga shows that the story can work without that. That one had a cast of Krillin, Gohan, Bulma, Vegeta and Frieza (plus his henchmen); Goku wouldn't arrive for a long time. The beloved Saiyan Training filler, whilst also showing Goku having antics on Snake Way and on Kaio's world, is primarily about Gohan's journey, and that worked very well. And as mentioned, the Garlic Jr. arc operated (to varying degrees of quality due to the writing) entirely without him as well. Goku may well have carried the story the entire time thus far, but I personally don't think he's the only one able to do that.
And I agree with this fully. It was the fantastic 'supporting' cast moving the story for countless episodes while Goku just sitting on a ship. Doesn't matter that the story was awaiting for Goku's arrival, the events were happening and changing rapidly on Namek and that was without Goku's involvement. And of course Future Trunks and his entire deal is another proof of DB being able to exist outside Goku. The universe and cast encemble is simply good and rich enough for it to happen and that's also a testimony to Toriyama's achievement.
Yes a fantastic SUPPORTING cast. Funny that you bring up Trunks, because once again, he went to the past to talk to Goku. Stories that move on from a main character after a long run have a hard time of it. It's a move that's rarely for the better. The reason Goku is taken out of action in DBZ doesn't prove how great the story can work without him, it proves his value. Toriyama takes him out of action to up the stakes and tension. It's the same reason Justice League stories often take Superman out of commission.

DB is VERY simple. It's about a guy that loves a good fight. That's really the story at its core. The story is easily digestible for anyone.
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