What's Canon? Few Care

[ABED]

I can't remember what exactly caused the epiphany, if you can call it that, but not that long ago, I realized that few people actually care about what is or isn't canon - certainly not enough to make much of a difference in anyone's bank account. Film goers don't care if Bond movies have any continuity. They just want a good story. While it can be fun to think about, it doesn't really matter that much to the overall viewing audience.

[TheGreatness25]

While I personally don't care about "canon," I think that in the grand scheme of things, canon is very important in a story like Dragon Ball.

With a series like the Bond films, or any kind of one-off story, canon doesn't come into play so importantly. I feel that with TV shows that have episodes that don't really connect week-to-week or movies like the Bond films, the audience kind of knows that going in. Those are series that are designed to have each incarnation enjoyed on their own without subjecting the audience member to going and watching everything leading up to it. That's clearly not the case with Dragon Ball. There are very few episodes that you can watch on their own and get the most out of what's happening. I dare argue that except for the first episode of Dragon Ball (and maybe the first episode of Z), you kind of need to watch what led up to it to follow along clearly. That's what makes canon a bigger factor in this series than some others.

We are conditioned to look at Dragon Ball as one linear story. Almost every episode begins with a recap. Each episode is connected. There are no stand-alone episodes. The movies were an attempt to be stand-alone and as you can see, they can't even fit into the main story. They couldn't find a way to make most of that movies seem like they could actually happen because DB is so tightly fit together. That right there is an example of the difference between DB and series where canon might not be as big of a deal.

Now, with us being conditioned to accept DB as one, linear story, where do you place the "extra" stuff? You place it outside of canon. I think that because the "extra stuff" is set aside with such a clear marker, it's easy for the perception of unimportance to creep in. The non-canon stuff begins to be synonymous with unimportant clutter, which is clearly how lots of people see it.

And then, you have the contradictions. Canon is used as the guideline for the proper way that the story was meant to unfold. We have contradicting material between Bardock and Super and GT. So, in order to inform someone on how to get the most out of the series, I believe that people use canon to steer people toward the "proper" and intended piece of the story rather than the contradicting "extra stuff" that only builds upon its synonym of unimportance the more that the series grows.

I think that canon is pretty important in DB because there is a ton of ground to cover and canon is the measuring stick of what should take priority. If someone has time for all of it, wonderful. But if not, then it's kind of the guideline of how to get the most out of DB -- at least from the creator's standpoint.

Of course, for our purposes -- because we love to analyze the series -- it's used to separate the "true" information from the "extra stuff."

While, again, I don't really care about canon, when walking into a DB discussion, you kind of need to be armed with your "proper facts" because nobody's having fun being ripped apart when they bring up that Yamucha, Chiaotzu, and Tenshinhan defeated the Ginyu Special Forces during the Namek arc. And thus, when discussing DB on any sort of non-casual level, people kind of need to know their stuff, and canon separates "fact" from "extra nonsense."

[KBABZ]

Does this really need to be its own thread?

[sintzu]

I think the reason canon is such a debate in DB is because of the amount of content it has.

With most shonen (and other genres) you've got an original manga and separate movies so everyone agrees that the manga is the "canon" while the movies are side stories that don't really count.

With DB you've got the original manga, movies and OVAs that are heavily connected to the main story and 2 anime sequels. BOG has 3 versions and RF has 2, all of which were handled by Toriyama. Another issue is that DB was done for a very long time then came back with a completely different feel than before so there's a debate over wheather or not the new material should be counted as it's written with a different mindset and for a different audience.

If DB was just the original manga (with its anime adaptions) while Z's 13 movies were more standalone then canon wouldn't even be brought up.

[ABED]

TheGreatness25, I'm not talking about continuity of plot. Yes, it does matter if the story is logically consistent, but whether GT or the movies are canon to the story ultimately isn't a big deal. If it's good, then people will watch it and enjoy it. Super's success doesn't come down to canon. It's more of something people enjoy. I'd be interested to see how many people would stop watching if TOEI came out and said, "this isn't canon to Toriyama's story". And the movies, as far as I know, they were a success regardless of not being canon to the series.

And while Bond movies are often one offs, several of the films had a loose narrative thread (e.g. Spectre), but whether Bond met Blofeld for the first time in You Only Live Twice or On Her Majesty's Secret Service didn't make much of a difference to people.

I really don't think people care what should take priority at the end of the day, it's all about story and characters for most people, not if something fits into an officially stated continuity.

As for filler and its canonicity, that can cause continuity errors, but the bigger issue is the pacing. That's a far bigger issue than if it's illogical. Pacing is crucial because the last thing you want to do is bore people.

[sintzu]

They couldn't find a way to make most of that movies seem like they could actually happen because DB is so tightly fit together. That right there is an example of the difference between DB and series where canon might not be as big of a deal.

When someone says there's no canon that means you can jump in at any point and watch in any order which is 100% wrong.

That's like saying you can start with the piccolo arc, jump forward to Cell then back to the RRA then forward again to Black without any issues.

Cooler and Broly could've been brought up multiple times now in Super but they haven't and GT doesn't line up with what's currently going on in Super so As far as we know anything outside the original manga and Super's anime is up in the air until Toriyama's done.

[Robo4900]

While Dragon Ball most certainly tells one continuous story, trying to map out a rigid canon for it all to fit in is something that will either be an exercise in frustration, or a fun thought experiment that falls apart on closer inspection.

So, yeah, Dragon Ball canon really doesn't matter. There's a lot of contradictions, and other weird oddities that don't reconcile properly(Hiya Dragon being in some filler, for example. Not necessarily a contradiction, but it has some implications that don't make any sense), but it's best to just not think about it and enjoy.

Of course, if you enjoy thinking about ways of arranging and/or reconciling some of the nonsensical aspects of the canon, sure, enjoy doing so, but remember it's all just fun.

[ABED]

Sure, you can't just start the story from anywhere, but it's not like it's hard to figure out where the beginning is.

[TheGreatness25]

TheGreatness25, I'm not talking about continuity of plot. Yes, it does matter if the story is logically consistent, but whether GT or the movies are canon to the story ultimately isn't a big deal. If it's good, then people will watch it and enjoy it. Super's success doesn't come down to canon. It's more of something people enjoy. I'd be interested to see how many people would stop watching if TOEI came out and said, "this isn't canon to Toriyama's story". And the movies, as far as I know, they were a success regardless of not being canon to the series.

I understand that you're saying that it shouldn't be a big deal. My original post was merely fleshing out why canon can be important in Dragon Ball -- not only to clear up the path of the way the story was intended to be told, but also for discussion purposes.

But canon is a big deal to a lot of people (as you can tell, I'm sure). I think that before Super came and kind of bulldozed lots of people's power scaling and whatnot, people were very heavy-handed in their "canon vs. non-canon" arguments. I think that because Super is so loose with its story and many see Super as "canon," lots of people started lightening up about the importance of canon. But it's no secret that canon was always hotly debated with this series.

Again, whether people should care or not, that's a whole other discussion. It's really subjective. While it's a nice theory to say, "Hey, don't worry, even if what you like isn't canon, you can still enjoy it," I think it's human nature to go against that because ultimately, the "non-canon" material is made to feel insignificant. Nobody wants to feel like what they like is insignificant. I think it's just human nature. That's why you see so much uproar about Yamucha's, Gohan's, and others' treatment in the series. I think it's human nature that when you're a big fan of something, you want to see it succeed and be important -- something that is the same for characters and non-canon material. And thus, when you're smacked with the fact that your non-canon story that you hold dear (let's say for example someone's a big fan of GT) is not important, has been passed by, and will not be revisited, it hurts the fans.

I'm just speaking for myself, but I know it's true for me. I don't like it when I'm a fan of something and it's blown off for something else that's "official" and almost by default, made more important. If a game comes out with A and 1 as the main characters and there's a split down the middle of who likes whom most, and then the series continues on with 1 while A is relegated to being some loser background character, it might not sit well with those that were really fans of A because naturally, they'd want A to succeed. I think that's why people care about canon -- because it does (by nature) make some parts of the story more important than others. Who wants to like a less important part of the story? That's why I think it leads to resentment, hurt feelings, and this hot debate over what's canon as many people might try to cling onto their love and not relinquish it.

Maybe I'm digging too deep into it, but that's how it comes off for me. Whether known or subconscious, I feel like it all comes down to trying to preserve people's feelings for a part of the story based on its relevancy, which is just naturally dictated by what is "canon." Who likes being a fan of something that's insignificant? I'd assume not many people. Now who likes being a fan of something that's insignificant while it gets shoved aside more and moer by something else? Probably even less people.

[ABED]

My point is that in the scheme of things, canon isn't that important. MOST viewers don't care that much. We see that in their viewing habits. The impressions you get via the internet are anecdotal and misleading.

I think it's human nature to go against that because

DB's profitability says otherwise.

[TheGreatness25]

My point is that in the scheme of things, canon isn't that important. MOST viewers don't care that much. We see that in their viewing habits. The impressions you get via the internet are anecdotal and misleading.

But the impressions that I get online in forums such as this one, are reflection of an invested fandom as opposed to the casual viewer.

I think it's human nature to go against that because

DB's profitability says otherwise.

I'm not understanding how DB's profitability disproves what I said. We see the canon vs. non-canon debates on forums -- as far as people are concerned, since Super's been out, I think a lot would say that it is part of canon. So that doesn't really prove nor disprove anything.

[ShadowAssailantX]

I can't remember what exactly caused the epiphany, if you can call it that, but not that long ago, I realized that few people actually care about what is or isn't canon - certainly not enough to make much of a difference in anyone's bank account. Film goers don't care if Bond movies have any continuity. They just want a good story. While it can be fun to think about, it doesn't really matter that much to the overall viewing audience.

I would have to disagree. First of all, a story having continuity and being canonical is two different things. An episodic show can be completely canonical but have almost no continuity. James Bond is actually an example of this. Most casual franchises in the past have very little continuity in order to make the show more accessible to newcomers just jumping in.

Anime, especially in the battle shonen genre, are notorious for having a lot of continuity from episode to episode, but large lapses in what people would consider canonical. As things trend more towards digital consumption and binge watching, even casual shows and movie franchises are introducing more continuity between entries than ever before.

I've met plenty of casual fans of all types over the years, and 9 times out of 10, once they hear that part of a story is non-essential viewing, they tend to skip it. It doesn't even really matter what the reason is, whether the story arc is "filler", or that the entry just isn't that good, casual viewers don't feel compelled to watch every entry in something that society deems not worth it.

[ABED]

Most casual franchises in the past have very little continuity in order to make the show more accessible to newcomers just jumping in.

I think you are confusing the issue of continuity and serialization. Star Trek: TOS wasn't heavily serialized, but the show had a continuity.

But the impressions that I get online in forums such as this one, are reflection of an invested fandom as opposed to the casual viewer.

And the casual viewers are the ones who are bring in the ratings. DB's profitability shows that people don't care about canon very much because as this thread and others have shown, the canon of DB is murky at best, and yet the show makes boat loads of money. You don't make that kind of money being a series with pure niche appeal. Hardcore fans are a small sect of any fandom.

[ShadowAssailantX]

Most casual franchises in the past have very little continuity in order to make the show more accessible to newcomers just jumping in.

I think you are confusing the issue of continuity and serialization. Star Trek: TOS wasn't heavily serialized, but the show had a continuity.

I was't confusing them, I was purposefully conflating them because you didn't bring up serialization in your original post. Instead you brought up James Bond, which is not serialized to try and prove your point about something that is. Continuity matters very little in a procedural show like Star Trek TOS. Nothing ever really happens to the core cast members, and you can flip between seasons pretty interchangeably (aside from some cast additions and the odd episode that references an older one).

Your initial post is about how continuity and what is canonical matter very little to viewers.

While it's a nice theory to say, "Hey, don't worry, even if what you like isn't canon, you can still enjoy it," I think it's human nature to go against that because ultimately, the "non-canon" material is made to feel insignificant.

I think this is the crux of the argument against your claim. People aren't going to care about ideas or characters who never are referenced again or have no impact on the story thereafter. There may be some exceptions to this here and there, but in a serialized show people won't care for parts that are considered non-essential viewing. I think the greatest relevant example is the fact that there was a market for something like Dragon Ball Kai. If most people didn't really care, why should this property even exist?

[ABED]

Why would I bring it up? They aren't the same thing and it's irrelevant to the issue.

Instead you brought up James Bond, which is not serialized to try and prove your point about something that is.

It wouldn't matter if it was. Besides, as I also pointed out, Bond movies did have an overarcing plot in the beginning - Bond vs. Spectre. And no one would care even if it was super serialized.

I think this is the crux of the argument against your claim. People aren't going to care about ideas or characters who never are referenced again or have no impact on the story thereafter. There may be some exceptions to this here and there, but in a serialized show people won't care for parts that are considered non-essential viewing. I think the greatest relevant example is the fact that there was a market for something like Dragon Ball Kai. If most people didn't really care, why should this property even exist?

Based on what? How many people pay attention to what officials say about what's canon. Who are the people you are referring to? Whether someone cares about a character is more a matter of execution.

The Bardock special may not be canon anymore. How many people really care that much if it is in continuity with the rest of the story or do they care more that it's a good story?

Kai's appeal wasn't about "canon" it was about pacing. Something can still be canon but have horrible pacing. By the same token, something can not be canon and be a good story. I'd also like to point out that DBZ is still WAY more popular than Kai for reasons that have nothing to do with canon.

Which do you think is the more important question people want to know - "What's canon?" or "What's good?" If GT was really good, do you think it would matter that much if it was said to not be canon? You know who argues about canon? Only hardcore fans and they don't make up the bulk of DB's viewing audience.

[Bardo117]

I only like the Saiyan Saga, and that's the only canon for me!


Of course canon is important lol or else statements like the one above would be very out of place.

[ABED]

I only like the Saiyan Saga, and that's the only canon for me!


Of course canon is important lol or else statements like the one above would be very out of place.

Important to whom?

[Xeogran]

Couldn't care less. I'm a fan of GT and the series is still relevant through DB Heroes who pushes it hard and DB Fusion amongst others. In fact GT Pan even made it to the game's boxart, and that was 2016.

Same with the movies.

[BlueBasilisk]

Couldn't care less. I'm a fan of GT and the series is still relevant through DB Heroes who pushes it hard and DB Fusion amongst others. In fact GT Pan even made it to the game's boxart, and that was 2016.

Same with the movies.

Fusions makes GT Pan a main character, lets you play as Bra, and doesn't give you Adult Goku until the post game. Who would have ever imagined that in a DB game?

[sintzu]

I only like the Saiyan Saga, and that's the only canon for me!


Of course canon is important lol or else statements like the one above would be very out of place.

Important to whom?

If it's not important then wouldn't it be OK to start the story from anywhere in any order ?