What's Canon? Few Care

[STH]

Canon = Main Story
Non-Canon = Alternative Story. There is no effect on the main story.

[ABED]

I only like the Saiyan Saga, and that's the only canon for me!


Of course canon is important lol or else statements like the one above would be very out of place.

Important to whom?

If it's not important then wouldn't it be OK to start the story from anywhere in any order ?

Not the point of the thread, and no, even though people don't care about what's canon or not, they still (generally speaking) want to begin at the start of the story if they can.

[sintzu]

Important to whom?

If it's not important then wouldn't it be OK to start the story from anywhere in any order ?

Not the point of the thread, and no, even though people don't care about what's canon or not, they still (generally speaking) want to begin at the start of the story if they can.

I mean if canon isn't important then it means you can start anywhere and watch in any order. If not then canon is important.

[Basaku]

Endless canon discussions and the popularity of interconnected cinematic universes tell something else - large part of audience does care about canon.

[ABED]

Endless canon discussions and the popularity of interconnected cinematic universes tell something else - large part of audience does care about canon.

Among a small portion of the overall audiences. And there's only been one popular interconnected cinematic universe - the MCU. The DCEU is a clustermuck.

I mean if canon isn't important then it means you can start anywhere and watch in any order. If not then canon is important.

That's not how it works. How many people ask whether something is canon before they watch a TV show or movie? I still don't see any connection between canon and "you can start anywhere".

[KBABZ]

Endless canon discussions and the popularity of interconnected cinematic universes tell something else - large part of audience does care about canon.

Among a small portion of the overall audiences. And there's only been one popular interconnected cinematic universe - the MCU. The DCEU is a clustermuck.

I would argue that Star Wars counts as well, given how closely it adheres to the originals when most people would have accepted fudging the details.

[ABED]

Endless canon discussions and the popularity of interconnected cinematic universes tell something else - large part of audience does care about canon.

Among a small portion of the overall audiences. And there's only been one popular interconnected cinematic universe - the MCU. The DCEU is a clustermuck.

I would argue that Star Wars counts as well, given how closely it adheres to the originals when most people would have accepted fudging the details.

Alright - there're (maybe) two, but how much of the overall audience for any of these properties ask themselves whether something is canon before they watch something?

[KBABZ]

Among a small portion of the overall audiences. And there's only been one popular interconnected cinematic universe - the MCU. The DCEU is a clustermuck.

I would argue that Star Wars counts as well, given how closely it adheres to the originals when most people would have accepted fudging the details.

Alright - there're (maybe) two, but how much of the overall audience for any of these properties ask themselves whether something is canon before they watch something?

A surprising amount I think, considering both have a rather nerdy and particulate audience. Luckily, canon for both Star Wars and the MCU is pretty simple these days. In that way, Dragon Ball is unique in that it doesn't really do that whole "continuity reboot" or "expanded universe cleanse" that other long-running franchises sometimes do. Toei prefer to keep everything viable because it can be marketed later, which in my opinion results in the "we don't care about canon" approach to the creative process that results in things like Xenoverse and Fusions, and Super coming along and not even addressing whether or not it overwrites either the End of Z or GT.

As for how much people care, you're right in that it's not that many; nearly everybody tosses canon out the window when watching the movies for example, and a twelve year old won't care about where something fits when Vegeta is punching SS4 Goku in the gut. It's really only the nerds like myself who think about it when it comes to the Fridge Logic of it all. It ultimately doesn't matter, it won't change anything and it will likely be contradicted by a future Dragon Ball release, but it's fun and interesting to us to try and categorize it and make sense of it all.

That being said, anyone who thinks that Dragon Ball itself takes canon as seriously as we do is a fool. That that being said, there is some value to having continuity and a canon to fall back on, because it means that there are certain reliable facts and events the audience knows has happened. Goku is an alien sent to Earth, he was raised by Grandpa Gohan, the Dragon Balls were created by Kami, Frieza is commonly known as the strongest being in the universe, etc. When you constantly rewrite previously established events without explanation and start destroying continuity, it means that the audience cannot trust events to last, and you get things like Comic Book continuities where you can't invest in anything because in five years time that death will be revoked and even entire settings will be reset.

[ABED]

I get your point and because I wasn't super clear on what I meant, it leads to issues you present. Yes, if a writer constantly disregards things he wrote in the context of story where the writers have set the audience's expectations that there is continuity of story, you can risk alienating the audience if you don't pay attention to it. However, even then, continuity errors don't seem to be as big an issue for people as much as other aspects of a given work.

I think the issue with the popularity of comic books has little to do with continuity.

[ShadowAssailantX]

The Bardock special may not be canon anymore. How many people really care that much if it is in continuity with the rest of the story or do they care more that it's a good story?

Kai's appeal wasn't about "canon" it was about pacing. Something can still be canon but have horrible pacing. By the same token, something can not be canon and be a good story. I'd also like to point out that DBZ is still WAY more popular than Kai for reasons that have nothing to do with canon.

Which do you think is the more important question people want to know - "What's canon?" or "What's good?" If GT was really good, do you think it would matter that much if it was said to not be canon? You know who argues about canon? Only hardcore fans and they don't make up the bulk of DB's viewing audience.

You aren't wrong to say that people like and appreciate good things. But you are painting this in a very black and white way that doesn't take too many factors into account. Let's consider the Bardock special since you brought it up. As it stands, Bardock is a very minor character who's past doesn't really matter to the story as a whole. But what if Bardock was reintroduced to the current storyline in a meaningful way? The way he is portrayed would matter a great deal now when considering which Bardock backstory actually occurred. If his characterization didn't gel with the events in the special, then people would begin to disregard it. If the current story went as far as to newly animate a completely different backstory, officially casting out the special out of any sort of canonical status, how many people do you think would purposefully go seek out the original special to watch, even if it was better?

To address your points about Kai, as far as popularity is concerned, you can't really separate them. Z and Kai are the same thing essentially. Beyond sales numbers that we don't have, I'm not sure how you're comparing popularity. Even then that wouldn't tell the whole story. As far as Kai's appeal is concerned, once again, I'm not sure where you're pulling you're opinion from. Looking at the marketing from FUNimation, I'm not really seeing anything particularly about the pacing specifically. Take a look at the back of the box for the first set.

https://ibb.co/jtK82R

"Cuts out filler"
"True to the manga, packed with action"
"Completely rewritten filler free scripts"
"Most accurate subtitle track ever"

None of these marketing claims suggest to me that this set is more about appealing to better sense of pacing than what is canonical. "True to the manga" is as close as you can get to saying "More canonical" as you can get from a marketing standpoint.

Here's another thing to consider. Something being canonical may not be more important than whether or not it's good, but it's certainly more objective. Before watching a particular entry in a series, you can check to see it's canonical status in different capacities. You may be able to read reviews for something to gauge the enjoyment you may get, but that will never be de facto evidence of whether you will enjoy it.

Finally, I can't really agree with you that no one is arguing about this kind of thing except hardcore fans. What even is a hardcore fan? Someone who has seen every episode? Can someone who has seen only 2 or 3 be not just as obsessive? I'm sure many people have been in a scenario where they've heard two other people arguing about something in their fandom, and both of the other people were totally wrong. It's human nature to argue about something you feel strongly about. Most of the time I hear newer, more casual fans arguing about things like that, because it's so new and fun for them. I think you have a misconception of older grizzled 30-40 year-olds all arguing about the minutiae of a property 20 years into their fandom. I can assure you it's quite the opposite

[ABED]

The quality of the Bardock special isn't dependent on if it is canon. If people disregard it, that's there loss, but I don't think that many will. It's not that hard to find.

I'm not really seeing anything particularly about the pacing specifically. Take a look at the back of the box for the first set.

Less filler = better pacing. It's just another phrasing.

So no, while I don't have sales figures, considering that Kai got cancelled once and it's just DBZ with fewer episodes (essentially reruns, not a different show) it's not a surprise that Kai wasn't as popular.

Here's the fundamental question to ask - how many people know or care what canon is besides hardcore fans? A hardcore fan is someone who watches the show over and over, has the show on home video, knows the minutia and behind the scenes stories, knows who the actors are, join online forums about the show, etc. Most people are content to just watch the show when it airs. And of course they discuss stuff they watch in person but they don't join forums to do so.

Can someone who has seen only 2 or 3 be not just as obsessive?

If you have only seen a fraction of a percent of the series, how obsessive can you actually be?

[ShadowAssailantX]

The quality of the Bardock special isn't dependent on if it is canon. If people disregard it, that's there loss, but I don't think that many will. It's not that hard to find.

I'm not really seeing anything particularly about the pacing specifically. Take a look at the back of the box for the first set.

Less filler = better pacing. It's just another phrasing.

So no, while I don't have sales figures, considering that Kai got cancelled once and it's just DBZ with fewer episodes (essentially reruns, not a different show) it's not a surprise that Kai wasn't as popular.

Here's the fundamental question to ask - how many people know or care what canon is besides hardcore fans? A hardcore fan is someone who watches the show over and over, has the show on home video, knows the minutia and behind the scenes stories, knows who the actors are, join online forums about the show, etc. Most people are content to just watch the show when it airs. And of course they discuss stuff they watch in person but they don't join forums to do so.

Can someone who has seen only 2 or 3 be not just as obsessive?

If you have only seen a fraction of a percent of the series, how obsessive can you actually be?

I don't really disagree with most things you said here, but I guess I feel like you're missing the main point. People care about quality. People care about pacing. We can both agree these are very important. But people also care about what's canon. They just do, and we've been through the reasons. People want to know what they're reading/ watching matters. Maybe you're using canonical as some sort of buzzword to encompass things that you don't like. And it certainly worked, because it's gotten people talking. But now I don't even think you really believe that people don't care about what's canon. Because what it's beginning to sound like is you are just saying people like good things. Well of course they do.

[ABED]

Yes, we have been through the reasons and even implicitly, I don't think it matters that much to most viewers whether Bardock is made canon. How many people viewing the show will look up what is canon? Christ, this forum has been around over a decade and there's not really a consensus about what the concept of canon is, much less what constitutes DB's canon.

People want to know what they're reading/ watching matters.

But who decides what matters? Isn't it the viewer who ultimately decides what matters to them? Logan has such a loose connection to the X-Men film canon and yet, it was incredibly popular.

With the exception of directors like Scorcese and Spielberg, I believe most people don't know who directs the movies or writes the shows they watch. So if they don't know that, why the hell would canon matter to them? How would they even know?

[KBABZ]

how many people know or care what canon is besides hardcore fans?

I believe I discussed this earlier?

[ABED]

Was that rhetorical?

[KBABZ]

Was that rhetorical?

No, it wasn't.

Stuff below, I forgot to mention them.

continuity errors don't seem to be as big an issue for people as much as other aspects of a given work.

For most people, if a story appears to make sense with the existing works, they'll focus on the new one itself when watching it. The DBZ movies I think are a good example of this; they totally break the continuity if you really think about it, but most of them are enjoyable enough (especially for the stereotypical American fan) that they won't care.

I think the issue with the popularity of comic books has little to do with continuity.

Well I wasn't referring to comic book popularity itself. But it's hard to get invested in comics as a new fan when there's no clear staring point because it keeps getting reset: DC has at least five different Crisis resets, from the 1985 original to the most recent one that tosses away New 52.

[Gligarman]

At this point it's kind of like the Star Wars movies. The canon is what you make of it since there are so many options. Personally I consider the Dragon Ball manga, the Jump Festa special, Battle of Gods, Jaco: The Galactic Patrolman, and Resurrection F priority since they were written by Toriyama himself. As for Super, I pretty much dismiss everything from episodes 2-27.

[ABED]

Well I wasn't referring to comic book popularity itself. But it's hard to get invested in comics as a new fan when there's no clear staring point because it keeps getting reset: DC has at least five different Crisis resets, from the 1985 original to the most recent one that tosses away New 52.

There never really was a DC continuity, not much anyway. Marvel was more into that. It has less to do with all the resets and there simply being a lot of comics. I could see why that might be daunting for anyone. Even if there is a clear starting point, that many decades worth of story can be overwhelming for anyone. I think comic book writers should remember Stan Lee's belief that "every comic is someone's first comic".

For most people, if a story appears to make sense with the existing works, they'll focus on the new one itself when watching it. The DBZ movies I think are a good example of this; they totally break the continuity if you really think about it, but most of them are enjoyable enough (especially for the stereotypical American fan) that they won't care.

Makes sense to me.

[Desassina]

I wouldn't know what canon is if I didn't go to the internet, because I rarely see the term applied outside of nerd stuff, except for the recent event that was the Pope writing two Portuguese entities as canon. In Dragon Ball, I had only found out about the manga when I saw the anime, so I guess that it was cool to have an alternative as a medium, and not the one piece of entertainment to rule them all, because I still go back to where the phenomenon is due.

[emperior]

The original author of Dragon Ball is Toriyama. The stories that come from him are canonical.

Toriyama supervises Super's production and gives his seal of approval. If something bugs him out, he will get if fixed. Considering he marketed Super as the continuation of his manga, this makes it canonical, at least in Toriyama's eyes.
Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, the 2008 special, Episode of Bardock, the TV Specials and to an extent BoG and RoF too are considered slightly-alternate takes on Toriyama's story, which makes everything that gets contradicted by Toriyama not-canon (like the Otherworld's depiction in DBZ, almost the whole Bardock's special).
Super's manga is in a limbo as it's considered a marketing tool for the anime and doesn't get considered by the videogames, although everything it depicts doesn't fundamentally contradict Toriyama's outlines as it's based on those, and Toriyama himself supervises it which means it can be considered canon.

Dragon Ball GT, Heroes, FighterZ, Xenoverse 1/2, DB Online and the movies (except for BoG, RoF and the upcoming movie) are side-stories/spin-offs which have nothing to do with the canon.