In my opinion, after the Namek arc, DBZ was a let down

[rereboy]

How does that hurt the story?

On one hand, we have Freeza deciding to wipe all the saiyans simply because they were getting a bit powerful collectively and Freeza deciding to call the Ginyu force (despite Zarbon's doubts that they were needed) and Freeza proclaiming, almost prophetically, that he had a feeling that they were going to be needed because he had a premonition that a powerful saiyan was developing and that he even doubted that Vegeta was that saiyan. This all paints Freeza as a pragmatic, calculating, take no chances and very aware dictator.

And then, on the other hand, we have Freeza just going through the motions of the fight, instead of ending it. While his inactivity could be explained by the fact that he had no scouter to hunt his enemies and later by the fact that he was distracted by Guru and Nail, how he acts in the fight is not really consistent. Even if we could explain it by saying that Freeza wanted them to suffer slowly, that excuse doesn't work after Freeza continuously met resistance after resistance and he still only did just the enough to get comfortably ahead, instead of leaving no room for any possible resistance from the start.

The inconsistency hurts the story by virtue of being inconsistent and by making Freeza seem much more stupid than he first appeared to be.

[ABED]

Except that he's not that pragmatic as he's more powerful all of the Ginyu Force combined. Clearly he cares more to have others do his dirty work than he does to do things as effectively if he did them himself. He's not inconsistent. Christ, he flies around in that chair thing for a good portion of the story and walks around in his weakest form most of the time. He's not nearly as all business as you claim.

[rereboy]

Except that he's not that pragmatic as he's more powerful all of the Ginyu Force combined.

Like I said, that can all be explained by the mere fact that he didn't have scouters. It doesn't matter how powerful he is if he can't find his enemies nor just blow up the planet.

Clearly he cares more to have others do his dirty work than he does to do things as effectively if he did them himself.

When he got a scouter, he actually made a point of doing his dirty work and getting the namekian password for himself (possibly because he thought it was a good idea that only he heard it).

He's not inconsistent. Christ, he flies around in that chair thing for a good portion of the story and walks around in his weakest form most of the time. He's not nearly as all business as you claim.

He enjoys having others doing his biding when he sees no possible danger or problem in things being handled that way. When he sees a possible problem, like saiyans getting a bit powerful, he immediately takes action by killing them all, or, when he sees things not going well and somehow senses danger in the future from a possible enemy, he immediately calls for his elites forces and new scouters, or when he finally has a means of tracking his enemies after things started to not go well, he has no problem with doing at least some of his dirty work.

And then, especially later on, we see him act in ways that are really not pragmatic or calculating and he seems to be in other moments.

It's like he's calculating and pragmatic when the plot requires him to be, and not when the plot requires him not to be.

[ABED]

He does his own dirty work when he's left with few to no options. By that point, the Ginyus were busy, and Zarbon and Dodoria were dead. He didn't trust his lackies to do something so important as get the DB password. It had nothing to do with something so trivial as a scouter. Yes, he needs them to find the Namekians in order to get the password, but he doesn't need the Ginyus to bring them. Once he has them, if he had done everything himself, assuming he was as pragmatic as you claim, he could've saved himself the headache and gone after Vegeta by himself. He needed the scouters to find the DBs. He didn't need the Ginyu Force. His power alone was more than enough to get what he needed. He's not actually pragmatic - ever.

He's only ever in danger when it's of his own making. The Saiyans didn't actually pose a danger to him when he destroyed them. Not a single one of them were even remotely in his league. From everything we've seen, he killed them due to a vague story that gave him a gnawing feeling. He didn't do it out of pragmatism. He did it out of fear because ultimately Freeza is a psychotic, paranoid, arrogant, sadistic dictator.

[Scott]

I can't agree with this thread. For me, things REALLY got interesting after the stuff on Namek.

Seeing this teenage Super Saiyan come out of nowhere and take out Frieza and his dad like they were nothing was amazing. I couldn't wait for each new episode because i wanted to know who he was and what he wanted.

The suspense and twists that took place were great, especially the reveal of Cell. Seeing Trunks and the other Z fighters trying to work out what was going with that AND trying to keep a step ahead of the Androids was great viewing. It also had some brilliant fights too. Piccolo vs 17 is still the most underrated fight in the whole of the series in my opinion.

[rereboy]

He does his own dirty work when he's left with few to no options. By that point, the Ginyus were busy,

Busy? Instead of ordering Ginyu to guard the ship and the Dragon Balls (aka just stand there) while Freeza went away on his own to get the secrets of the balls, Freeza could have just ordered Ginyu to go do that while Freeza stayed on the ship with the balls. That's what would have been consistent with a Freeza that just delegates stuff constantly, who is not calculating and never does his dirty work unless he sees few options. But, because the plot demanded it, Freeza is perfectly willing to do that himself.

And that's what constantly happens... Early on, Freeza is portrayed much more calculating and pragmatic than he is later on because the plot wants him to appear more menacing and not stupid... But then, when the plot wants him to not be that way, like in his fight, he is not portrayed that way. And that's bad because the plot shouldn't being be jerking around characters to fit the whims of the plot. Rather, how the characters are should fit naturally in the overreaching story.

[ABED]

He does his own dirty work when he's left with few to no options. By that point, the Ginyus were busy,

Busy? Instead of ordering Ginyu to guard the ship and the Dragon Balls (aka just stand there) while Freeza went away on his own to get the secrets of the balls, Freeza could have just ordered Ginyu to go do that while Freeza stayed on the ship with the balls. That's what would have been consistent with a Freeza that just delegates stuff constantly, who is not calculating and never does his dirty work unless he sees few options. But, because the plot demanded it, Freeza is perfectly willing to do that himself.

And that's what constantly happens... Early on, Freeza is portrayed much more calculating and pragmatic than he is later on because the plot wants him to appear more menacing and not stupid... But then, when the plot wants him to not be that way, like in his fight, he is not portrayed that way. And that's bad because the plot shouldn't being be jerking around characters to fit the whims of the plot. Rather, how the characters are should fit naturally in the overreaching story.

He never was portrayed as pragmatic, even from the jump. He has henchmen do his dirty work when it would be quicker to do it himself. Freeza was never portrayed as being the smartest. He's not stupid, but he's not a great tactician either. It actually would've been smarter to order Ginyu to get the secret of the DB's and stand guard over the DB's. He has no reason to be a great strategist given how powerful he is.

[rereboy]

You didn't actually add any argument.

[ABED]

You didn't actually add any argument.

Yeah I did, but whatever. You view Freeza as being pragmatic, when it's clear that isn't true at all. Freeza fears the Saiyans might become stronger, but he keeps Vegeta alive? He's never been this calculating and pragmatic character you make him out to be. There were always far more expedient means to get what he wanted done from the very first time we see him. He does what he does how he does it because he gets off on hurting people.

These are facets of the character that I like. If there are any contradictions in his character, it's not because he's badly written, it's because people often have contradictory behavior. In this case, his methods and actions are all within character.

[rereboy]

Yeah I did, but whatever

No, you just repeated affirmations.

You view Freeza as being pragmatic, when it's clear that isn't true at all

No, I view him as inconsistent. That's the whole issue.

Freeza fears the Saiyans might become stronger, but he keeps Vegeta alive?

Exactly. Freeza is portrayed as calculating and pragmatic enough to immediately decide to destroy the entire saiyan race when they get a bit powerful... but he leaves Vegeta live. And then, he has an almost premonition of some unseen danger, perhaps a saiyan he doesn't know, that will cause him trouble, and insists on calling for the backup of his elite forces... despite the fact that he had let Vegeta live all those years ago. Etc. Hence, my opinion of his portrayal being inconsistent. It seems to lack self-sustainability and to bend to the whims of the plot.

[ABED]

Sure, there were some rewording, but I made the point that he was never portrayed as a great strategist. He's not calculating and clever, like you claim. He's a blunt instrument.

Freeza is portrayed as calculating and pragmatic enough to immediately decide to destroy the entire saiyan race when they get a bit powerful... but he leaves Vegeta live.

That example proves that he's NOT calculating and pragmatic. If he were, he wouldn't leave the strongest member, or at least the one with the most potential alive. That is his character. From the jump he's not shown to be pragmatic. That is his character. His actions come from character. Getting the Ginyus wasn't pragmatic, it is another example of him farming out work that would be more effective if he did it himself

No, I view him as inconsistent. That's the whole issue.

And why you view him as inconsistent is you see him as being shown to be pragmatic in some situations and not in others, which by the way, even if it was true, it doesn't make it bad. People and characters can have contradictions.

[Kid Buu]

I agree with Cell arc because the whole thing just feels so pointless. The Gero part is interesting, but everything after with 17/18 and Cell wanting to blow things up just feels like adding conflict for the sake of having a villain.

Buu is kind of similar, but I do think it was more creative and Toriyama's gag in the arc are funny.

[MKCSTEALTH]

The Saiyan and Frieza arc was a very tight knit package that really delivered on the goods. The Cell Arc was a great continuation while exploring new ideas and giving everyone a final hurrah. The Buu arc was okay, but imo it was far too long. It became frustrating after a while

[lancerman]

How does that hurt the story?

On one hand, we have Freeza deciding to wipe all the saiyans simply because they were getting a bit powerful collectively and Freeza deciding to call the Ginyu force (despite Zarbon's doubts that they were needed) and Freeza proclaiming, almost prophetically, that he had a feeling that they were going to be needed because he had a premonition that a powerful saiyan was developing and that he even doubted that Vegeta was that saiyan. This all paints Freeza as a pragmatic, calculating, take no chances and very aware dictator.

And then, on the other hand, we have Freeza just going through the motions of the fight, instead of ending it. While his inactivity could be explained by the fact that he had no scouter to hunt his enemies and later by the fact that he was distracted by Guru and Nail, how he acts in the fight is not really consistent. Even if we could explain it by saying that Freeza wanted them to suffer slowly, that excuse doesn't work after Freeza continuously met resistance after resistance and he still only did just the enough to get comfortably ahead, instead of leaving no room for any possible resistance from the start.

The inconsistency hurts the story by virtue of being inconsistent and by making Freeza seem much more stupid than he first appeared to be.

I disagree with that analysis. You have to look at the Freeza arc through two prisms. The first is Freeza has the objective of getting a once in a lifetime chance at immortality. He's being very cold and calculating because he doesn't want to take any chances. If the Ginyu's are overkill so be it, why not call them in? The reward is that great.

After the Dragon Balls turn to stone, he lost his purpose for being there, and the only reason he doesn't just take his ship and leave is because he wants revenge. And you also have to look it at this way when Freeza was in his second form, it was overkill for Gohan/Vegeta/Kuriren. He just had no idea that the magic dragon brought a Namekian to the planet who fused with another Namekian and helped his surpass that form. The minute he found that out he went to his third form which was overkill for him. He also only stayed in that form momentarily before going to his final form which was overkill for all of them. Even 50% of his final form was enough for Goku (another fighter he didn't know was on the planet).

Freeza constantly stacked the deck against his opponents and was NEVER in danger of losing the fight until Goku went Super Saiyan, which was another event that Freeza couldn't anticipate.

[rereboy]

I disagree with that analysis. You have to look at the Freeza arc through two prisms. The first is Freeza has the objective of getting a once in a lifetime chance at immortality. He's being very cold and calculating because he doesn't want to take any chances. If the Ginyu's are overkill so be it, why not call them in? The reward is that great.

Yet, Freeza doesn't even take one Dragon Ball with him when he goes after Guru. Or sends Ginyu to go after Guru while Freeza stays with the Dragon Balls.

Or when Vegeta wakes up and steals the Dragon Balls, Freeza doesn't go after Vegeta himself, who had taken off with his chance at immortality, and just orders Zarbon to do it, even though Freeza was smuch faster and stronger and even though Zarbon had already disappointed Freeza in how he handled things with Vegeta.

After the Dragon Balls turn to stone, he lost his purpose for being there, and the only reason he doesn't just take his ship and leave is because he wants revenge. And you also have to look it at this way when Freeza was in his second form, it was overkill for Gohan/Vegeta/Kuriren. He just had no idea that the magic dragon brought a Namekian to the planet who fused with another Namekian and helped his surpass that form. The minute he found that out he went to his third form which was overkill for him. He also only stayed in that form momentarily before going to his final form which was overkill for all of them. Even 50% of his final form was enough for Goku (another fighter he didn't know was on the planet).

Freeza constantly stacked the deck against his opponents and was NEVER in danger of losing the fight until Goku went Super Saiyan, which was another event that Freeza couldn't anticipate.

Freeza spend the entire fight having his strength checked. Vegeta checks his first form power. Gohan, and later Piccolo, check his second form power. Then Gohan checks his third form power again. Then Goku checks his fourth form power multiple times as Freeza increases his power in his form...

If Freeza had been even 1% as calculating and careful as he had been in other moments, he would, after getting checked once or twice, gone to his true form, with 70% or even 100% power and just destroyed them all in one blow, alongside the planet, no more messing around.

Honestly, Freeza just goes with what the plot wants way too much.

[Gaffer Tape]

Freeza spend the entire fight having his strength checked. Vegeta checks his first form power. Gohan, and later Piccolo, check his second form power. Then Gohan checks his third form power again. Then Goku checks his fourth form power multiple times as Freeza increases his power in his form...

If Freeza had been even 1% as calculating and careful as he had been in other moments, he would, after getting checked once or twice, gone to his true form, with 70% or even 100% power and just destroyed them all in one blow, alongside the planet, no more messing around.

Honestly, Freeza just goes with what the plot wants way too much.

This. So much this. This is what absolutely kills the Freeza fight for me. A bad guy being cocky is great. A bad guy's cockiness allowing the heroes to overpower or even best him is great. But letting the heroes get the better of the villain half a dozen times in the same sequence when he could easily deal with them if he put forth even the tiniest bit of effort is just ridiculously stupid. As sick as I've gotten of transforming villains in general, and as much as I prefer Freeza as a character to Cell and Boo, Toriyama handled the transformation aspects of those two far better than Freeza. Putting that many transformations and power-ups at the villain's beck and call rather than having it be connected to outside influences, turns the fight into a big video game, where the heroes have to whittle down the villain's HP each time before he initiates the next phase. And in the end, we don't feel that the heroes have beaten the odds and triumphed over an unstoppable foe. We just feel the heroes got lucky and won because the villain was an idiot. And there's nothing satisfying about that.