Pushing back against the anti-Cell and Buu arcs majority sentiment here and elsewhere

[ABED]

And Other people's opinions can effect one's own if they don't have much in the way of confidence you know.

It can AND it can also mean someone makes a persuasive counter argument. It can also be a sign of confidence to change one's opinion. It can mean someone is secure in their person that they can admit to themselves and others they might have been wrong.

[precita]

The Cell and Buu arcs are fantastic but for different reasons. Each saga offers something new and does something a little better and a little worse than the previous.

[xarmyz]

The Boo Saga represented a return to form, i.e. Dragon Ball gets to be silly again, but there were a few too many "why won't they just..." moments.

Okay, the desire for Z-warriors being always hyper efficient and sensible is irksome. I like that they often lack common sense and that their over-confidence and lack of interest in doing the pragmatic thing cause just as many problems as it does solutions.

[ABED]

The Boo Saga represented a return to form, i.e. Dragon Ball gets to be silly again, but there were a few too many "why won't they just..." moments.

Okay, the desire for Z-warriors being always hyper efficient and sensible is irksome. I like that they often lack common sense and that their over-confidence and lack of interest in doing the pragmatic thing cause just as many problems as it does solutions.

It's not a superhero story. They are looking for a fight. I think people would be a lot happier if they understood that. Suddenly much of DB will make much more sense to them by understanding that one idea alone.

[Gligarman]

The Boo Saga represented a return to form, i.e. Dragon Ball gets to be silly again, but there were a few too many "why won't they just..." moments.

Okay, the desire for Z-warriors being always hyper efficient and sensible is irksome. I like that they often lack common sense and that their over-confidence and lack of interest in doing the pragmatic thing cause just as many problems as it does solutions.

It's not a superhero story. They are looking for a fight. I think people would be a lot happier if they understood that. Suddenly much of DB will make much more sense to them by understanding that one idea alone.

I understand that they can't have too much common sense. Otherwise Shen Long could have ended the show a million different times. At this point I accept Dragon Ball for what it is and what it's not, and it ain't perfect.

[ABED]

It's not about being perfect, it's about goals. Their goals aren't to stop crime and destruction. Their fundamental aim is to test themselves as martial artists. By that standard, the characters are acting rationally.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

I'm glad that you were able to vent some of your frustrations somewhere, xarmyz. Actually, you may find that the majority around here in more recent times seems to like the Boo arc a lot. I like it, but not as much as the previous story arcs. It does, however, contain some of my favorite moments.

It's the Cell arc -- from what I've seen -- that has been getting pushed further into mixed to negative criticisms in general in more recent years. The main criticisms that I'm aware of are something about:

-SSJ's everywhere (actually very well handled in this arc considering the passage of time)
-Plotholes(?)
-Editorial meddling (something that doesn't in any way translate to the finished product, imo)
-Deus ex machina F.Trunks (F.Trunks being more a bystander in the current timeline and not defeating the big bad doesn't make him so)
-#16's words triggering Gohan(it's all in how the words were delivered, not by who, imo)
-Gohan out of character at the Cell Games(???!)
-Boring final antagonist/Freeza clone(????)

None of which I agree with. I will maintain that when taken from its manga panels(which I'm not familiar with) and then translated to screen, that it's the most consistent story arc out of Z's four major arcs as presented in its anime adaptation(my recent thread about that got taken and blasted out of a cannon!). It's the one arc that makes me feel like I'm on the inside looking out and being on this spiritual journey with these characters as they attempt to ascend to further heights as opposed to just watching characters doing entertaining stuff on screen. It's more intimate and personal. It's quite remarkable that a lengthy story arc can keep someone engaged all the way to its conclusion without it feeling overly dragged out or taking dives in quality.

But yeah, the internet has opened my eyes. I had no idea that all of these criticisms about the series, in general, existed. I've always thought of DB/Z as an enjoyable, entertaining and unique series. Putting it under a microscope and picking every little thing apart and spinning it into negative criticism just seems counter-productive to me. I wonder how many of the series events that are controversial to some have really been lost in translation when viewed by Western eyes? Some insight into that is something that strikes my curiosity.

Anyway, Dragon Ball is an awesome thing that exists!

[lancerman]

I suppose what, I'm asking here, is why can't I think that that Late Z era is the high part of the franchise, why must I be forced to conform to the opinions of the majority here including some very prominent people in the fandom. Why can't my views be just as valid as your own?

To want to love a thing your own way and not be constantly told that you are wrong to do so, that's not unreasonable thing to want, is it?

I think you're arguing against a strawman. Nobody's forcing you to think in a different way than you want to (and considering how you've never actually engaged in any discussions yourself and have just been reading other people's, this is especially ridiculous). Discussions are meant to showcase different perspectives. Seems just like you can't handle different opinions well.

Is it a strawman when so far not a single person here has really agreed with me albeit in a respectful manner. (all right, VegettoEX is totally neutral here) and you rather callously come in and say basically "Oh, You are just too thinned-skin, get over it." And Other people's opinions can effect one's own if they don't have much in the way of confidence you know. That is why I couldn't keep silent any longer.

You can like the arc, you just aren't entitled to have others agree with you on it. I personally think the Boo arc, aside from a drag in the middle was fine. I hate the Cell arc and always have, even before it was cool (believe it or not there was a time where I'd argue the Cell arc was the most popular arc in the west). I don't really understand what your looking for. You shouldn't need others validation to like something.

[Gaffer Tape]

Well, since the original poster has referred to me specifically as a source of his frustration at least twice now in this thread, I feel I should probably say something. Just in case you didn't know, but I suspect you do, given how long you claim to have been lurking, I am the MistareFusion of which you speak.

I have to say I'm actually very flattered that you think my critiques are either so persuasive or so pervasive that I could somehow turn the tide of perception of the final two arcs of the series. Personally, I'd love to think the former was true. As for the latter, I have no delusions that I am in any way a popular enough figure that my voice reaches even a small fraction of the fandom. So even if my words swayed absolutely everybody who heard them (and they don't, believe me), that would still be a drop in the bucket compared to the overall fandom. I don't even have any reason to believe that a majority of the users on this forum are hanging on my every word, nor would I even want them to.

I mean, I'm only two installments into my review of the Cell Arc, so you seem to be worrying about something that hasn't even happened yet. Not to mention, I opened the Cell Arc by referring to it as the "best opening of any arc in the entire series." But just in case you haven't seen The Cell Arc Part 1, I would like to quote something I said in that video that seems to relate to your dilemma almost exactly:

"So I just wanted to give a friendly reminder that while I present a lot of facts here, and those facts are instrumental in forming and backing up my opinions, Dragon Ball Dissection is primarily that, an opinion-based series. It is my review and my analysis, and the opinions contained within are purely my own. You can watch Dragon Ball Dissection without agreeing with everything I have to say. I daresay you are free to enjoy Dragon Ball Dissection even if you don't agree with me. This is just what I think, and I know my opinions are not always in lockstep with the majority. I've heard many people say over the years that this series has altered their own views on parts of the series. And that is very flattering. It suggests that I'm doing a good job of arguing my points. But if you like the Cell and Boo Arcs, you don't have to feel compelled to be swayed by what I'm saying, and my goal is not to make you like them any less. All I hope is that you are entertained, whether you agree or not, and that maybe I'll give you something new to think about."

And that's pretty much the crux of it. Like what you want to like. Explore why you like what you like. Be critical of what you like. Thinking is the name of the game. That's what places like this forum are for. Nobody's telling you what to think. Nobody's trying to stop you from having fun. That doesn't mean that your viewpoints won't be challenged, and maybe you'll come away thinking differently about certain things. I know this forum has changed and shaped my views on many things over the years. But there's nothing bad about that. And even if you do discover "flaws" that you end up agreeing with, that doesn't mean you have to stop loving it.

[Doctor.]

I suppose what, I'm asking here, is why can't I think that that Late Z era is the high part of the franchise, why must I be forced to conform to the opinions of the majority here including some very prominent people in the fandom. Why can't my views be just as valid as your own?

To want to love a thing your own way and not be constantly told that you are wrong to do so, that's not unreasonable thing to want, is it?

I think you're arguing against a strawman. Nobody's forcing you to think in a different way than you want to (and considering how you've never actually engaged in any discussions yourself and have just been reading other people's, this is especially ridiculous). Discussions are meant to showcase different perspectives. Seems just like you can't handle different opinions well.

Is it a strawman when so far not a single person here has really agreed with me albeit in a respectful manner. (all right, VegettoEX is totally neutral here) and you rather callously come in and say basically "Oh, You are just too thinned-skin, get over it." And Other people's opinions can effect one's own if they don't have much in the way of confidence you know. That is why I couldn't keep silent any longer.

It IS a strawman because nobody has ever forced you to think the arcs are bad. People present their opinions and you take it as a personal insult. Nobody has agreed with you because people have their own opinions and, in their own opinion, they don't think the arcs are all that good. It seems like you just want people to agree with you rather than engage in a discussion that benefits both sides, which, ironically, just means you want to control what they think like you thought people wanted to control what you think.

[sintzu]

I think both arcs are the best in the franchise and many others love those 2 so trust me, not liking them isn't a majority opinion. There are more fans who don't care about the pre Saiyan arc content than there are who don't care about those 2.

[Robo4900]

Here's the thing about the Cell and Boo arcs; if I was to do an in-depth critical analysis, I would probably have a lot of criticism to throw at them, particularly the Cell arc.

And yet, the Cell arc is my favourite arc of Z, and honestly, I think Boo is my favourite Z antagonist.

I think the post-Namek arcs do get a bit of an unfair rep from some people, largely grouchy people who'd rather criticise everything than enjoy anything, but ultimately, they're good arcs. I think there's a lot to be said for the point of view that they perhaps weren't as clever, or well-plotted as previous arcs, but I'm glad they exist, and despite my gripes with the way the Boo arc went after Boo's fight with Gohan in terms of the plot, I think it worked very well as a way to build up to a conclusive end to Toriyama's original run. And as much as I prefer GT as an ending to the franchise, I'd be totally satisfied if the story had ended with the Boo arc, and gone no further.

Still though, while I do adore the Cell and Boo arcs, I think examining media through a lens you don't normally look at them through can often be a rewarding experience; discussing what's wrong with a story can lead to just as much enjoyment as discussing what's good about it, so why not do both?

[TheLegend23]

I enjoy the show as an entirety. There are a few things here and there that are a bit annoying, but other than that I just love the show. People complain and pick apart everything. One thing you must understand is the real Dragon Ball community is very passionate about the series so of course debates like this will and always have arised.

[DiegoBrando]

*complexity of multiple timelines*

There is no complexity. Only stupidity and a plethora of plot-holes and inconsistencies. Seriously, even the best writers have trouble in making time-travel work. A guy who likes to draw poo on a stick, and makes things up as he goes, has it even harder with time travel.

Anyway, you are free to like these arcs the most. There are certainly elements I love, and I have fun watching bits from the arcs on YT every once in a while. But as a serious story, these two arcs offer by far the most easily observed neutral criticism. That's why so many people complain, because some elements are just that bad and easy to see as BS.

[ABED]

No one makes time travel work. There are always holes if you stop to think about it. Time travel stories work on fridge logic.

[lancerman]

When you get too deep into time travel stories they can fall apart. However they generally try to stay within a certain logic. Terminator for instance just committed to the series being a closed loop paradox for the first film. Harry Potter also used time travel very briefly and it didn't cause issues beyond "why didn't they always use time travel".

Dragon Ball didn't need to have any issues with the timeline whatsoever. They just used the idea of time paradox to explain changes in the story, which in my opinion was lazy writing.

-Goku was supposed to have died 6 months before the day Trunks said the Androids arrived, but he never showed symptons until the day he fought 19. There is no real logical explanation for that, even with time travel. It was just an excuse.

-Likewise, based off everything we know, Gero stopped following the heroes after the Saiyan arc. There's no reason why Trunks coming back would have made 19 and 20 appear as opposed to 17 and 18. Likewise, based of this timeline, there's really no reason at all for the Androids to have different personalities.

My problem is Dragon Ball used the idea of time paradoxes and issues with timelines to cover up inconsistencies they choose to make in stories when they could have just written a reason for it. Like they could have literally just said Gero saw Trunks and Goku as SSJ's and it freaked him out and he sped up work on his Androids and decided to have 19 and 20 appear 6 months earlier and when he released 17 and 18 they were incomplete which effected their personalities. It's that simple. No reason to be lazy about it.

[Doctor.]

No one makes time travel work. There are always holes if you stop to think about it. Time travel stories work on fridge logic.

Time travel works completely fine using alternate timelines, which is what DB uses. DB has holes because of carelessness on Toriyama's part in regards to details, not because of any paradoxes its time travel creates.

[ABED]

My problem is Dragon Ball used the idea of time paradoxes and issues with timelines to cover up inconsistencies they choose to make in stories when they could have just written a reason for it.

That is the reason. Time travel is complete fiction. It can have whatever rules you want, as long as you're consistent with them.

[lancerman]

My problem is Dragon Ball used the idea of time paradoxes and issues with timelines to cover up inconsistencies they choose to make in stories when they could have just written a reason for it.

That is the reason. Time travel is complete fiction. It can have whatever rules you want, as long as you're consistent with them.

Okay in the vast majority of stories that involve time travel, where time travel messed up a timeline, they tend to give cause and effect reasons why. They didn't here. So either it was a lazy in story time line changing plot, or it was using time travel as a way to cover up out of story changes. Either way not good quality story telling.

[ABED]

My problem is Dragon Ball used the idea of time paradoxes and issues with timelines to cover up inconsistencies they choose to make in stories when they could have just written a reason for it.

That is the reason. Time travel is complete fiction. It can have whatever rules you want, as long as you're consistent with them.

Okay in the vast majority of stories that involve time travel, where time travel messed up a timeline, they tend to give cause and effect reasons why. They didn't here. So either it was a lazy in story time line changing plot, or it was using time travel as a way to cover up out of story changes. Either way not good quality story telling.

That IS the reason. Time travel by its nature screws things up. It's not lazy. The fact of traveling through time and the butterfly effect of something small is the cause. It's not lazy. Cell's info dump exposition to Piccolo is lazy. Goku keep information from his friends and Gohan because Toriyama wanted to keep Gohan's power as a reveal was lazy storytelling.