Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's Character Development in the Cell arc?

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GamerSkull
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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's Character Development in the Cell arc?

Post by GamerSkull » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:58 pm

TheUltimateVegito wrote:
GamerSkull wrote:
TheUltimateVegito wrote:
There was build up to it in the Cell arc:

Goku's anger in witnessing Android 20 kill people.

Goku looking out of a window and contemplating (Only in the manga) after losing to 19, which then lead to Goku focusing more on Gohan (He stated he wanted Gohan to go SSJ during time in RoSat)

Goku opting to make Dende guardian to get new Dragon Balls after knowing Cell killed people after Goku even had Cell agree not to kill people before the tournament.

And finally, Goku's shocked expression after Piccolo had a go at him for misunderstanding Gohan which almost led to Gohan's failure.
He could have prevented people from dying if the group sought out Gero in the first place. His desire for a good fight is what put the world in danger.

He’s a danger to Earth simply because he isn’t pragmatic. Him deciding to stay away isn’t exactly helping this problem, especially since he’s the one that has to return to save the day again, after basically playing a part in putting it in jeopardy yet again by not quickly eliminating Vegeta by going SSJ3... or killing Majin Buu when he could.

Then again, most DB characters in general never seem to go for the obvious out.
That's the point. Goku knew his Saiyan nature can make him do stuff he doesn't and does want to do simultaneously. He knew he couldn't stop his Saiyan nature from putting the earth in danger and decided to stay dead because of it.

He pretty much said it himself. He said he stayed dead because Gohan is more reliable meaning he doesn't have the negatives of Saiyan nature holding him back and he also stayed dead to minimise the chance of another villain causing trouble due to being after Goku.

Also when you think about it Piccolo jr., the Saiyans, Frieza and especially the Androids were a result of Goku. The Androids and Frieza had the biggest impact on him because the Android were created sorely to kill Goku and Frieza had an empire which could lead to another Dr. Gero (Someone wanting revenge on Goku). So from Goku's perspective there's a high chance that staying dead can stop another threat from happening.
He said that he decided to stay dead because new villains keep ending up coming because of him... but he knows that if he was pragmatic enough he could make sure these threats are stopped in advance. I don't know about anyone else, but a character arc where Goku willingly fights against his love for battle just because he knows it's the right thing to do would make for a more enjoyable story than one that shows he can never get any sort of self-control over his urges and then decides to stay dead.

If Goku's resistance towards his saiyan heritage (as was shown in the beginning) was further explored by this... and showed that he gained more of a self-control over his saiyan urge for battle, that would make for a great character arc. But no, all he cares about is fighting and he stays that way, even to the detriment of everything else even when he returns.

Now, I ultimately understand that that is really not Goku's character and a lot of people love his desire for battle but it still just goes to show that his character only seemed to barely progress during the Cell and Buu arcs... because he is largely the same. A battle-hungry alien who will allow an enemy to continue rampaging just because he wants a good fight or wants someone else (Gohan, Goten, and Trunks) to have something to do.

And I say all this with Goku as my second favorite character in the entire series.
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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's Character Development in the Cell arc?

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:40 pm

GamerSkull wrote:
TheUltimateVegito wrote:
GamerSkull wrote:
He could have prevented people from dying if the group sought out Gero in the first place. His desire for a good fight is what put the world in danger.

He’s a danger to Earth simply because he isn’t pragmatic. Him deciding to stay away isn’t exactly helping this problem, especially since he’s the one that has to return to save the day again, after basically playing a part in putting it in jeopardy yet again by not quickly eliminating Vegeta by going SSJ3... or killing Majin Buu when he could.

Then again, most DB characters in general never seem to go for the obvious out.
That's the point. Goku knew his Saiyan nature can make him do stuff he doesn't and does want to do simultaneously. He knew he couldn't stop his Saiyan nature from putting the earth in danger and decided to stay dead because of it.

He pretty much said it himself. He said he stayed dead because Gohan is more reliable meaning he doesn't have the negatives of Saiyan nature holding him back and he also stayed dead to minimise the chance of another villain causing trouble due to being after Goku.

Also when you think about it Piccolo jr., the Saiyans, Frieza and especially the Androids were a result of Goku. The Androids and Frieza had the biggest impact on him because the Android were created sorely to kill Goku and Frieza had an empire which could lead to another Dr. Gero (Someone wanting revenge on Goku). So from Goku's perspective there's a high chance that staying dead can stop another threat from happening.
He said that he decided to stay dead because new villains keep ending up coming because of him... but he knows that if he was pragmatic enough he could make sure these threats are stopped in advance. I don't know about anyone else, but a character arc where Goku willingly fights against his love for battle just because he knows it's the right thing to do would make for a more enjoyable story than one that shows he can never get any sort of self-control over his urges and then decides to stay dead.

If Goku's resistance towards his saiyan heritage (as was shown in the beginning) was further explored by this... and showed that he gained more of a self-control over his saiyan urge for battle, that would make for a great character arc. But no, all he cares about is fighting and he stays that way, even to the detriment of everything else even when he returns.

Now, I ultimately understand that that is really not Goku's character and a lot of people love his desire for battle but it still just goes to show that his character only seemed to barely progress during the Cell and Buu arcs... because he is largely the same. A battle-hungry alien who will allow an enemy to continue rampaging just because he wants a good fight or wants someone else (Gohan, Goten, and Trunks) to have something to do.

And I say all this with Goku as my second favorite character in the entire series.
Personally I say the idea of Goku realising he can't get rid of his limitations as a person so figures his way around it is a better character arc. It makes his character more wise instead of becoming a traditional hero.

Just because he can't get rid of his urges doesn't mean he doesn't care about the detriment he causes, he cared just as much as if he did gain more of a self control over it. He wouldn't have said "both" when Krillin asked if he scared or excited about the Androids if that wasn't the case.

I'd say he changed big time while remaining the same. He went from believing he can protect the earth to believing he's better of not living on earth and that future generations are more reliable. This is why he taught Goten and Trunks the fusion dance instead of killing Buu. He didn't want to waste time fighting Buu more which would've drained the time he had to the point where he wouldn't have enough to teach Goten and Trunks the fusion dance so they'll have a better chance against future threats.
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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's Character Development in the Cell arc?

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:09 pm

ABED wrote:
lancerman wrote:
I will give you the stuff about helping Gohan control Super Saiyan 2. Goku didn't keep it from Gohan for good reasons. Toriyama did it because he wanted to keep it as a reveal for the audience. I can't think of any organic in-story reason why Goku would keep it from Gohan.
I'm sure it's because he didn't want to pressure Gohan. He was certain he'll win anyway.
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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's Character Development in the Cell arc?

Post by lancerman » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:36 pm

TheUltimateVegito wrote:
ABED wrote:
lancerman wrote:
I will give you the stuff about helping Gohan control Super Saiyan 2. Goku didn't keep it from Gohan for good reasons. Toriyama did it because he wanted to keep it as a reveal for the audience. I can't think of any organic in-story reason why Goku would keep it from Gohan.
I'm sure it's because he didn't want to pressure Gohan. He was certain he'll win anyway.
And he was wrong. Cell could have killed Gohan at any time. Goku was very lucky that Cell decided to toy with Gohan and try to draw the power out. Goku also completely failed when it became apparent Gohan had very little control over his emotions and it allowed Cell the opportunity to potentially blow up the planet. Also because they didn't know the extent of Cell's regeneration abilities the last fight was still a toss up where Gohan needed help to win.

Goku played it completely wrong. He literally had the option of taking another whole year in the Time Chamber with Gohan to get him to achieve SSJ2 and to master it and keep himself in check. He decided to just troll everyone instead and do nothing the week before the tournament.

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Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's Character Development in the Cell arc?

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:40 pm

And he was wrong. Cell could have killed Gohan at any time.
I don't think that's the problem. Gohan appeared to be stronger than Goku even before turning SS2.
Goku played it completely wrong. He literally had the option of taking another whole year in the Time Chamber
Again, the time chamber is too harsh for what gains they might make. It's like lifting heavy weights every single day. It won't build muscle. The body needs to rest. Goku tells Vegeta that they've peaked.

None of this feels like organic storytelling. Goku is holding information back because Toriyama wants to hold information from the reader. That's how it comes across.
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