Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

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Re: Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:43 am

Tien's arc isn't just fighting Goku, it's rejecting his master Shen and choosing to fight for his own pride rather than that of Shen's. I haven't seen Movie 3, but there can't possibly be a moment in it that can be like when Tien shouts "LEAVE ME ALONE!!" to his Master.

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Re: Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

Post by Super_Divine_Genki » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:24 am

*Anime Adaptation*

I can't really say if there's anything major that has changed, but:

Saiyajin arc: I think that this one has generally remained about the same level of quality for me over the years. There are a couple filler segments that didn't really feel all that necessary, but they are still enjoyable for what they are. They were a good way to keep both a (dead)Goku and Gohan active throughout the arc for the viewing audience.

Namek/Freeza arc: This one has dropped further down for me in quality over the years, which is the biggest change from the earlier days. The first half has a mostly strong momentum going for it still, but the second half is a really tough re-watch. I'm not as bothered by Bulma's adventures as some are (she was a crucial part to that arc to begin with), but it was a bit excessive at times just seeing her encounter various wildlife on Namek to pad out the time. The quality drop has nothing to do with the story -- because it's so good -- but because of the super drawn-out way that it was presented in the anime. However, I think that I still prefer the originally aired telling (as with all of JPN Z) over the Kai version because of the original performances and music. A product of its time, but can anyone imagine watching the entire Freeza battle every week live as it originally aired in its homeland? That went on for about nine months!

Cyborg/Cell arc: This one jumped up a lot further for me than in the earlier days, but I've still generally liked it over the years. An arc that reminds us of why all of these characters have such a strong bond with each other, and it's good spending time with them throughout the arc as a group since it's the first, and only, time since OG DB.

Boo arc (or everything after the time skip): Like the Cyborg arc, I like this one more now than I used to but not as much as the above. Initially (back in 2003-2004-ish), I remember not being that invested in it because I was finding it more boring than entertaining, but it was still interesting -- and I'd marathoned through these episodes the first run-through after purchasing the boxsets (I still haven't seen the English dub in its entirety as I didn't watch it as it was first airing in the U.S.). Even though I like it more now, it's still way overlong, imo. Cutting 1/3 of that material out would've done it much good, and some of its filler is just nonsense (even by DB's standards). However, some of the best and most entertaining stuff is also contained within (outside of that middle stretch).


I'm with ABED about the 22nd Budokai. Indeed, Tenshinhan's internal struggle with Kamesennin getting in his head, and the finals match were excellent. We also got to see Goku and Kuririn paired up in a competitive match for the first, and only time. Plus the match between Yamucha and Tenshinhan was really good. Yamucha was hanging in there really well until he got momentarily distracted. Kuririn being the first one there to help Goku get back on his feet after the finals is also an awesome moment that I agree with on. My opinion on this arc hasn't changed at all. I think that if someone cares very little/at all about Tenshinhan, that they won't care much for the arc.


I can't really think of anything else that stands out.

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Re: Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:44 am

Basaku wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Oh another one I forgot to mention BoG movie isn't great or even good. Not well animated or directed save for Shida scene the fact DBS has had episodes that look better than a movie says it all. The story is just bad or rather it's executed poorly, none of the action is ever given room to breathe or let the audience engage, and the film is full off nonsensical padding that doesn't move the story forward. The extended cut just brings the flaws out more. Plus the cast get treated horribly and it's boderline offensive.

Is it enjoyable? Sure but I don't think it's the gold standard for modern DB people think it is especially when ResF gets hated on and it's essentially the same film.

Not sure what triggered this change tbh, just one day rewatched BoG and it didn't sit right with me.
Probably the "new DB content after all these years omg!!!11" effect finally wore off? :wink: I think BOG gets a pass becase of it and lots of fanservice and memes. When we compare it to DB heights it really is... incredibly mediocre.
You may have hit the nail on the head. Thinking about it there is a lot more Toei original movies that imo are done better as a movie, both technically and story wise, that said their are aspects where I think BoG/ResF nails mostly characterisation. Hope this new movie actually wants to tell and interesting story and the big one I hope Toei pull through on their promise on the technical sides of things.

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Re: Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:59 am

I used to really like the Cell arc but my opinion has really soured on it, a lot of it seems superficially cool and exciting but when you stop to think about anything for five adjacent seconds, it doesn't work. The arc would VASTLY be improved if the entire time travel premise was dropped entirely and if several character related developments didn't feel forced or just an excuse to advance the story. Piccolo fusing with Kami is little more then an ultimately pointless power up for him, Goku wakes up and suddenly has a massive hard on to make Gohan the strongest there ever was, Gohan exploding because a guy he doesn't know gets killed in front of him (this is like Goku turning SS because Freeza killed Dende and not Krillin).
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Re: Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

Post by ABED » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:33 am

I used to think Gohan going Super Saiyan 2 was an amazing moment. It gave me the chills. It still works in the anime, but it mostly boils down to the music and Nozawa's scream. Everything that leads up to it just isn't there to make it a GREAT moment. I think it changed when I watched more great TV and read more, I realized it wasn't set up well. And it's not me being overly analytical and talking myself out of enjoying it, I genuinely don't get that feeling anymore.

Years ago, I would've loved to have DB continue with Super and movies every few years. Now, after consuming more stories, and seeing a number of TV show revivals and nearly always being disappointed, I don't have that feeling anymore. I'd rather the story end.
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Re: Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:52 am

The problem with Gohan and SS2 is it tried to play too much like Goku and SS on Namek, except we didn't have time to actually get to know Gohan as a character as much as we did Goku, aside from being told he has great potential that's it. It seems Toei went out their way to actually do stuff with him like his pet Dragon had that been canon and that'd be who'd died then you could have been like okay that's a bit fair enough as he had somewhat of a relationship with it.

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Re: Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:16 am

my opinion on GT.

Hated it when I was a kid, then when I rewatched it uncut with the Tokunaga score on the Green Bricks I really enjoyed it

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Re: Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:42 am

I used to really like the Buu Saga but my opinion on it has really gone sour over the years, and it's mostly because of Goku. He instigates most of the problems in the arc by ignoring Shin, not letting Vegeta kill Dabura, and then fighting Majin Vegeta when he knows damn well that doing so will aid in Buu's revival. He stops the fight so they can go fight Buu, but some time between waking up and heading back to the lookout, he decides that Buu isn't his problem and that the younger generation could deal with it. Oh, and then we find out he could have beaten Buu but decided not to, which renders Vegeta's sacrifice even more pointless and stupid than it already was and leads to the deaths of everyone on Earth, and nobody ever calls him out for any of this but Shin! I honestly feel like that portion of the Buu saga, from the time they go to Babidi's ship til the time Goku comes back to Earth, is the worst written and most unsympathetic Goku has ever been. It feels like his character changes on a dime just to prolong the conflict.
KBABZ wrote:Tien's arc isn't just fighting Goku, it's rejecting his master Shen and choosing to fight for his own pride rather than that of Shen's. I haven't seen Movie 3, but there can't possibly be a moment in it that can be like when Tien shouts "LEAVE ME ALONE!!" to his Master.
Well...
[spoiler]Shen turns on Chiaotzu and tries to kill him, but Tien (who was wrestling with divided loyalty) sides with Chiaotzu, jumps in front of Shen and blows him away with a Kikoho.[/spoiler]
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Basaku wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Oh another one I forgot to mention BoG movie isn't great or even good. Not well animated or directed save for Shida scene the fact DBS has had episodes that look better than a movie says it all. The story is just bad or rather it's executed poorly, none of the action is ever given room to breathe or let the audience engage, and the film is full off nonsensical padding that doesn't move the story forward. The extended cut just brings the flaws out more. Plus the cast get treated horribly and it's boderline offensive.

Is it enjoyable? Sure but I don't think it's the gold standard for modern DB people think it is especially when ResF gets hated on and it's essentially the same film.

Not sure what triggered this change tbh, just one day rewatched BoG and it didn't sit right with me.
Probably the "new DB content after all these years omg!!!11" effect finally wore off? :wink: I think BOG gets a pass becase of it and lots of fanservice and memes. When we compare it to DB heights it really is... incredibly mediocre.
You may have hit the nail on the head. Thinking about it there is a lot more Toei original movies that imo are done better as a movie, both technically and story wise, that said their are aspects where I think BoG/ResF nails mostly characterisation. Hope this new movie actually wants to tell and interesting story and the big one I hope Toei pull through on their promise on the technical sides of things.
The part where Goku fights Beerus is great, but that's exactly the problem too. I haven't timed it but it seems like more than half the movie is Beerus just being a jerk to people with the 'Battle of Gods' being squeezed in right at the end. Hell, Super Saiyan God is built up throughout the movie and lasts what, maybe 10 minutes? The Battle of Gods arc didn't always look so hot but I felt like it did a much better job fleshing out the concepts that it introduced and gave fair play to both the comedy and the fight with Beerus.

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Re: Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

Post by TrunksTrevelyan0064 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:50 am

When I first got into Dragon Ball, I was drawn to it mainly for the action. The slower, quiet scenes didn't appeal to me very much. Now, it's the other way around. I love the character interaction even when it's just two people talking, but once they start punching I kind of zone out unless the fight itself looks appealing and well-choreographed. Of course, this shift of interest has everything to do with my aging almost 20 years.

Different characters started appealing to me as well: Mayumi Tanaka's soft-spoken portrayal of Kuririn made me realize he is not merely a throwaway comic-relief; I started to see how mature, serious and tough he can actually be. I was also never a big fan of Majin Boo, but if you had asked me to decide on my favorite form of his, I would have picked one of his "cool-looking" forms. Now? Hah! Fat Boo is best Boo! He is especially wonderful and hilarious in the period between Babidi's death and Boo's evil side emerging.
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Re: Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

Post by dbs fanboy » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:13 pm

Back then i used to care a lot about power levels and stuff just to argue about it with fans of other franchises (you know, talk about what if battles). Of course, back then i used to think: "Goku can defeat them all, because well he's Goku". Then some years later i stopped caring, i think it was after meeting the terible comment section in any Death Battle video, seeing so much rage and salt everywhere made me think: "is this shit even that worth it?".
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Re: Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:14 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
KBABZ wrote:Tien's arc isn't just fighting Goku, it's rejecting his master Shen and choosing to fight for his own pride rather than that of Shen's. I haven't seen Movie 3, but there can't possibly be a moment in it that can be like when Tien shouts "LEAVE ME ALONE!!" to his Master.
Well...
[spoiler]Shen turns on Chiaotzu and tries to kill him, but Tien (who was wrestling with divided loyalty) sides with Chiaotzu, jumps in front of Shen and blows him away with a Kikoho.[/spoiler]
Aw shoot, I thought we were talking about DBZ Movie 3, not DB Movie 3! Well yes, of course it would have a moment like that. And here I was trying to figure out how they could possibly shove Tien's character arc into Tree of Might...!

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Re: Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

Post by GamerSkull » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:30 pm

dbs fanboy wrote:Back then i used to care a lot about power levels and stuff just to argue about it with fans of other franchises (you know, talk about what if battles). Of course, back then i used to think: "Goku can defeat them all, because well he's Goku". Then some years later i stopped caring, i think it was after meeting the terible comment section in any Death Battle video, seeing so much rage and salt everywhere made me think: "is this shit even that worth it?".
Oh God. That Superman vs. Goku Death Battle had a really heated comment section. And I'm a big fan of both those characters.

I used to do this too though. I would get into heated debates with my friends all the time. Not anymore though.

Anyway, another major opinion of mine that's changed over the years is that I find classic Dragon Ball (the first 16 volumes) better than the Z portion. I've come to the realization that while the Z portion was my childhood, as an adult I only really enjoy the Saiyan and Namek/Freeza arcs while I like almost all the arcs of classic Dragon Ball.
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Re: Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

Post by Gligarman » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:34 pm

I use to really dislike the Boo saga but after reading the manga I've come to warm up to it quite a bit. It was nice to see Dragon Ball be silly again since the previous two arcs took themselves so seriously for the most part. There is one scene in the anime version that I use to like but now I don't particularly care for. When Goten meets Goku for the first time and gives him a hug. In the manga Goten was afraid to seek any affection from Goku until he thought Goku was going to die again. It made that scene a lot more touching.

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Re: Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:50 pm

GamerSkull wrote:I used to do this too though. I would get into heated debates with my friends all the time. Not anymore though.
I never did this as a kid, but nowadays here on the forums the answer that always springs to my mind with the "how powerful would X character be if they did Y?" is "it would make them stronger", since power levels work by plot, not mathematics.

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Re: Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

Post by floofychan333 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:22 pm

I've started to enjoy the Japanese dub more now, though my DVDs have horrible sound quality for the Japanese and good quality for the English.
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Re: Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

Post by GamerSkull » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:17 pm

KBABZ wrote:
GamerSkull wrote:I used to do this too though. I would get into heated debates with my friends all the time. Not anymore though.
I never did this as a kid, but nowadays here on the forums the answer that always springs to my mind with the "how powerful would X character be if they did Y?" is "it would make them stronger", since power levels work by plot, not mathematics.
Yeah, I feel power levels are traditionally just a way to hype up a character's strength in relation to another but writers will always move the plot along in a way for the person that is supposed to win to do so. It's just there as a hype tool. At least that's the why I see it.

Power level debates annoy me these days. I've seen people write essays trying to argue something when I know the author himself probably hasn't put that much thought into it.
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Re: Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

Post by Jackalope89 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:33 pm

My favorite arc when I was a kid was the Great Saiyaman one. And this was the original Funi Dub. After watching the Kai version... Its still my favorite little arc.

But, as a kid growing up in the 90s, I did have to deal with Western cenorship stuff, like making Goku practically Superman-esque (which, to this day, seems to be a prevailing sentiment amongst those that don't really pay attention to details in the series). So, finding out about the more accurate versions, well, I just kind of rolled with it.

So, nothing major really changed. Even GT, though some parts were cringy, I still liked (and glad to have found out I'm not the only one).

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Re: Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:48 pm

GamerSkull wrote:Power level debates annoy me these days. I've seen people write essays trying to argue something when I know the author himself probably hasn't put that much thought into it.
Totally agreed! This extends to hypothetical matchups as well, like "Would Ultra-Instinct SS4 Gogeta be able to defeat SSB Goku?", where'd I'd think to myself "well dude, it'd be whoever the writer wanted to win that day", since that's really how the creation process worked. And you're right on the money with the hype thing as well, the point is not how powerful a guy like Beerus or Hit is mathematically speaking, but rather that those characters ARE more powerful as a base fact. If you focus on the mathematical aspect, then you get into the whole thing where it doesn't make sense that some Androids invented with Earth technology are many, many times more powerful than Frieza (to say nothing of Trunks defeating him in one slice with an ordinary sword).

I think the focus on Power Levels not only comes from the emphasis on them in the oft-rerun Saiyan and Namek arcs in NA, but also because the show felt more "serious" due to the Falcouner score removing a lot of the chipper, light-hearted tone of Dragon Ball that was still in Z. Thus it became this super-serious show where everything has to be taken seriously, including any mathematical data presented to the audience. Combine that with the Cell and Buu arc's distinct lack of Power Levels, as well as movie characters like Broly and Android 13, and you just created a huge blank canvas for fans to go rampant, when really the story is supposed to be about the next Strong Guy showing up and you're not supposed to worry about the semantics.

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Re: Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

Post by GamerSkull » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:21 pm

KBABZ wrote:
GamerSkull wrote:Power level debates annoy me these days. I've seen people write essays trying to argue something when I know the author himself probably hasn't put that much thought into it.
Totally agreed! This extends to hypothetical matchups as well, like "Would Ultra-Instinct SS4 Gogeta be able to defeat SSB Goku?", where'd I'd think to myself "well dude, it'd be whoever the writer wanted to win that day", since that's really how the creation process worked. And you're right on the money with the hype thing as well, the point is not how powerful a guy like Beerus or Hit is mathematically speaking, but rather that those characters ARE more powerful as a base fact. If you focus on the mathematical aspect, then you get into the whole thing where it doesn't make sense that some Androids invented with Earth technology are many, many times more powerful than Frieza (to say nothing of Trunks defeating him in one slice with an ordinary sword).

I think the focus on Power Levels not only comes from the emphasis on them in the oft-rerun Saiyan and Namek arcs in NA, but also because the show felt more "serious" due to the Falcouner score removing a lot of the chipper, light-hearted tone of Dragon Ball that was still in Z. Thus it became this super-serious show where everything has to be taken seriously, including any mathematical data presented to the audience. Combine that with the Cell and Buu arc's distinct lack of Power Levels, as well as movie characters like Broly and Android 13, and you just created a huge blank canvas for fans to go rampant, when really the story is supposed to be about the next Strong Guy showing up and you're not supposed to worry about the semantics.
Yeah, it actually does aggravate me sometimes when people debate over those kinds of things. The writer will always find a way to make who they want to win be the victor. Especially when certain things cannot be accurately measured such as your Ultra-Instinct SSJ4 example.

I don't think this is just DB-exclusive. It seems a lot of battle manga or just action hero fans always seem to debate over who is more powerful than whom... and unfortunately, it just gives me the impression that some people out there wouldn't like the character as much if he wasn't powerful. Take my Superman vs. Goku comment for example, who cares who is stronger? Would Superman being weaker than Goku make you like Superman any less... or would Goku being weaker than Superman make you like Goku less? I don't understand why fans get so heated over power level debates as if it's a personal attack on their franchise/series of choice. And frankly, almost every power level debate I've seen is like this.
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Re: Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:49 pm

GamerSkull wrote:I don't think this is just DB-exclusive. It seems a lot of battle manga or just action hero fans always seem to debate over who is more powerful than whom... and unfortunately, it just gives me the impression that some people out there wouldn't like the character as much if he wasn't powerful. Take my Superman vs. Goku comment for example, who cares who is stronger? Would Superman being weaker than Goku make you like Superman any less... or would Goku being weaker than Superman make you like Goku less? I don't understand why fans get so heated over power level debates as if it's a personal attack on their franchise/series of choice. And frankly, almost every power level debate I've seen is like this.
Superman winning that one makes sense to me since he's basically the comic book equivalent to Broly when it comes to how powerful he is. He's an invulnerable fanfic character, that's kinda the point of him. Goku meanwhile is a character striving to be better all the time, and the thing about being better is that you have to be not-the-best first. I also always wondered what could possibly compel them to fight in the first place, I figured they'd be good friends right? But no it's about whoos da strongest.

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