Any major opinions of yours that have changed throughout the years? If so what triggered the change?

[GamerSkull]

I don't think this is just DB-exclusive. It seems a lot of battle manga or just action hero fans always seem to debate over who is more powerful than whom... and unfortunately, it just gives me the impression that some people out there wouldn't like the character as much if he wasn't powerful. Take my Superman vs. Goku comment for example, who cares who is stronger? Would Superman being weaker than Goku make you like Superman any less... or would Goku being weaker than Superman make you like Goku less? I don't understand why fans get so heated over power level debates as if it's a personal attack on their franchise/series of choice. And frankly, almost every power level debate I've seen is like this.

Superman winning that one makes sense to me since he's basically the comic book equivalent to Broly when it comes to how powerful he is. He's an invulnerable fanfic character, that's kinda the point of him. Goku meanwhile is a character striving to be better all the time, and the thing about being better is that you have to be not-the-best first. I also always wondered what could possibly compel them to fight in the first place, I figured they'd be good friends right? But no it's about whoos da strongest.

Well, I disagree with that. I'm a big Superman fan and his character isn't really about his strength (but most of his villains are within his tier of power). Superman's character is more about self-control and the responsibility he faces by having such unimaginable power that he could very easily use for negative reasons. He's often accused of being a Mary Sue, but it's a common misconception. It also doesn't help that ScrewAttack kind of combined different iterations of Superman into one hybrid.

Bad writers often make Superman all about the action, but a good Superman story is more about his personal growth as a person and not a powerful entity. This is the fundamental difference between him and Goku. I'm not saying this a bad thing, Goku's story is about getting stronger and striving to be the best fighter out there. Superman's story is about self-control and growing to understand people that are fundamentally different from you but still having a desire to be part of them.

To say he's an invulnerable fanfic character is a bit of a disservice to him. But it's your right.

Regardless, I'm a big fan of both of these characters... and it really grinds my gears that people seem to be so quick to attack each other over power level debates.

[KBABZ]

Regardless, I'm a big fan of both of these characters... and it really grinds my gears that people seem to be so quick to attack each other over power level debates.

That I can agree with. It's possible to be fans of multiple things! Reminds me of Ratchet & Clank fans who cannot bear the thought of going more than a year without a new game in the series.

Superman talking with Goku would be very interesting. I'd imagine Superman would talk about how he has to reign in his power and be super careful, while Goku would respond with "Wow really? Huh! Guess I never really had to think about doing that!"

[GamerSkull]

Regardless, I'm a big fan of both of these characters... and it really grinds my gears that people seem to be so quick to attack each other over power level debates.

That I can agree with. It's possible to be fans of multiple things! Reminds me of Ratchet & Clank fans who cannot bear the thought of going more than a year without a new game in the series.

Superman talking with Goku would be very interesting. I'd imagine Superman would talk about how he has to reign in his power and be super careful, while Goku would respond with "Wow really? Huh! Guess I never really had to think about doing that!"

If we're being perfectly honest, those two would make for great friends.

Because Superman has to constantly keep his power in check, he can never let loose. (which is a constant thing in the comics, as he has to struggle with self-control not to go berserk and hurt people sometimes even though he can easily take care of business). He has to make sure not grip his pencil too tight, or hit the numbers on his phone too hard. He has super-hearing that he can't turn off so he can never have a moment of quiet. He probably has to take it slow with his wife because the sex would probably kill her. Just think how frustrating life would be for someone like that. I'd go nuts.

With Goku, they'd be pretty good sparring buddies. Superman could give Goku a great challenge and neither would be too scared to hurt the other. Which brings me to another thing about these kinds of debates, sometimes when you factor in the personality of characters... then things just play out differently and they don't act out of character. Goku and Superman would never fight in a death match. They'd be buds.

Yeah, I feel like too much of something can easily lead to fatigue so I personally couldn't understand Ratchet and Clank fans wanting it every year. This is why I stopped play Call of Duty and Assassin's Creed.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Going off of the anti-SSJ2 Gohan transformation scene sentiments, I used to be indifferent to #16's words to Gohan. It didn't really register with me and felt like something there was missing when I was a bit younger. I guess that I expected for there to be a bigger event to trigger the transformation. Now after going through the series again back in 2016 after having been several years removed from the original run, I appreciate how low-key the scene is, and that it didn't require some dramatic death of one of Gohan's closest. Gohan was already getting closer to giving into this crippling overwhelming power by that time, and then this head of some artificial creation falls out of the sky and asks of a request in a way that none in Gohan's circle would have. I've said it before -- It's not just in what was communicated, but how it was communicated. It didn't matter that there hadn't been a relationship there, Gohan had witnessed the kind of character that #16 was just enough for the delivery of those words to impact him. I also like the unpredictability of it all, as it's unlike anything that DB has ever done.

[ABED]

Yes, but WHAT he communicated is something that Gohan already knew.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Gohan may have known, but his own power and indecisiveness had been keeping him locked in place after some time. So many seem to overlook just what an affect it was having on him, being neck deep in a serious internal struggle after being put on the spot (why is this lost on so many??). #16 entering the scene and his words kinda knocked Gohan out of being in some form of mental freeze mode, and then went on to settle him down enough and offer something of a different perspective on the situation. Gohan (a more conscious and capable person by this time, but still a child nonetheless) gathered himself back together for that moment because an outlet/s became available for him to better process his energies through. And then...

I know that we've been conditioned by DB's general simplicity over the course of the story, but here it's not as simple as Gohan already knowing what to do to kill the bad guy, imo. Toriyama could've written the big scene any way that he wanted to to get to SSJ2, and in hindsight, I'm happy that he went with something perhaps a little different/deeper than your average DB here.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

Pretty much how I view GT has changed. It is still a bad series overall, but the modern revival of Dragon Ball, Kai onwards is plagued with disasters one after the other makes me go "wow GT is not the only abomination after all".

[Michsi]

Going off of the anti-SSJ2 Gohan transformation scene sentiments, I used to be indifferent to #16's words to Gohan. It didn't really register with me and felt like something there was missing when I was a bit younger. I guess that I expected for there to be a bigger event to trigger the transformation. Now after going through the series again back in 2016 after having been several years removed from the original run, I appreciate how low-key the scene is, and that it didn't require some dramatic death of one of Gohan's closest. Gohan was already getting closer to giving into this crippling overwhelming power by that time, and then this head of some artificial creation falls out of the sky and asks of a request in a way that none in Gohan's circle would have. I've said it before -- It's not just in what was communicated, but how it was communicated. It didn't matter that there hadn't been a relationship there, Gohan had witnessed the kind of character that #16 was just enough for the delivery of those words to impact him. I also like the unpredictability of it all, as it's unlike anything that DB has ever done.

It's way simpler than that for me. I don't think 16's words played a huge role in getting Gohan angry, it was simply the cruelty of the act that pushed him over the edge. And it's not like it was unprecedented either, Gohan did the exact same thing with Dende on Namek. He didn't know him but simply watching his village being tortured triggered such an immense rage that it made him disregard logic and caution.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Absolutely. I wasn't meaning to say that #16's words were the only factor in play, but a part in the overall package of that scenario. Some like to brush over #16's words as if they shouldn't have impacted Gohan in any way -- if anything, #16 at least got him to settle himself down for those few seconds and distract Gohan from being locked-in on the action. But yeah, the cruelty of the act following that bit would get to anyone with a heart, and was the main breaker. Well said, *Michsi.

*Edit: corrected my spelling

[Michsi]

Absolutely. I wasn't meaning to say that #16's words were the only factor in play, but a part in the overall package of that scenario. Some like to brush over #16's words as if they shouldn't have impacted Gohan in any way. But yeah, the cruelty of the act following that bit would get to anyone with a heart, and was the main breaker. Well said, Mischi.

Of course, his final words are supposed to mean something, but not in the sense that they're trying to communicate something to Gohan. I believe the intention here was to hammer home the notion (probably more so for the reader, than Gohan) that #16 was indeed a good person, if only so that it could help add to the injustice of it all.
Again, I feel like the first English dub did the scene in which Gohan snaps a great disservice by inserting that monolog, in a sense that it implied a form of connection between these two characters that the viewer knew wasn't there, therefore the drama registered as fake and forced. At least that's how I remember it.

[ABED]

Okay, while I do have objections to your points, I think this is a well worn topic that isn't the point of this thread.

While it's not a major opinion of mine, I didn't agree with the idea that GT was like DB, but not quite. Now, I understand what is meant by it. The actors and characters might be DB, but the feel of DB isn't quite there. I think that realization came after years of reading and watching stories that I understand what is meant by an "artist's voice".

[Scott]

Super Saiyan Goten and Super Saiyan Trunks.

When i watched these two moments as a kid, i thought it was really cool, but i kind of hate it now. Some things i can let the show get away with, but watching a kid who didn't know how to fly and couldn't even fire a perfect ki blast turn into a Super Saiyan was too much for me to accept. Trunks going Super Saiyan is easier to deal with because he was training with Vegeta, but still, it's not enough for me to accept even from him.

It just makes me think, well if they can do it, why wasn't Gohan turning Super Saiyan during the Saiyan saga or Vegeta when he was growing up ? They went through a hell of a lot as kids.

I didn't feel like we seen enough of them to warrant the form, it just made Super Saiyan look cheap.

[GamerSkull]

Super Saiyan Goten and Super Saiyan Trunks.

When i watched these two moments as a kid, i thought it was really cool, but i kind of hate it now. Some things i can let the show get away with, but watching a kid who didn't know how to fly and couldn't even fire a perfect ki blast turn into a Super Saiyan was too much for me to accept. Trunks going Super Saiyan is easier to deal with because he was training with Vegeta, but still, it's not enough for me to accept even from him.

It just makes me think, well if they can do it, why wasn't Gohan turning Super Saiyan during the Saiyan saga or Vegeta when he was growing up ? They went through a hell of a lot as kids.

I didn't feel like we seen enough of them to warrant the form, it just made Super Saiyan look cheap.

This is one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of the final two arcs... there are things that directly contradict each other. Such as the Super Saiyan being awakened by a pure heart and that Vegeta seemingly attained it off-screen. There's just a lot of stuff that I find unearned... like Vegeta being accepted by the group (him essentially being rewarded with a family despite his bad history and acting like we should be happy for the characters involved), Goten and Trunks going Super Saiyan (which I think should have just been a transformation done during fusion), the potara earrings not actually lasting long enough at all, and other stuff like that.

I will always maintain that the Freeza arc should have been tweaked enough to be the final arc... and it's the arc I end up stopping on during most of my rewatches... as I'm so sour on some of the stuff that happens later that I feel like it's more of a chore to go through. (For me anyway)

[Scott]

Super Saiyan Goten and Super Saiyan Trunks.

When i watched these two moments as a kid, i thought it was really cool, but i kind of hate it now. Some things i can let the show get away with, but watching a kid who didn't know how to fly and couldn't even fire a perfect ki blast turn into a Super Saiyan was too much for me to accept. Trunks going Super Saiyan is easier to deal with because he was training with Vegeta, but still, it's not enough for me to accept even from him.

It just makes me think, well if they can do it, why wasn't Gohan turning Super Saiyan during the Saiyan saga or Vegeta when he was growing up ? They went through a hell of a lot as kids.

I didn't feel like we seen enough of them to warrant the form, it just made Super Saiyan look cheap.

This is one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of the final two arcs... there are things that directly contradict each other. Such as the Super Saiyan being awakened by a pure heart and that Vegeta seemingly attained it off-screen. There's just a lot of stuff that I find unearned... like Vegeta being accepted by the group (him essentially being rewarded with a family despite his bad history and acting like we should be happy for the characters involved), Goten and Trunks going Super Saiyan (which I think should have just been a transformation done during fusion), the potara earrings not actually lasting long enough at all, and other stuff like that.

I will always maintain that the Freeza arc should have been tweaked enough to be the final arc... and it's the arc I end up stopping on during most of my rewatches... as I'm so sour on some of the stuff that happens later that I feel like it's more of a chore to go through. (For me anyway)

Now that you have bought up Vegeta getting a family, it reminded me of another thing.......and it's to do with Bulma.

Her falling in love, marrying and having Vegeta's children is possibly the worst thing she ever did in Dragon Ball. I know Bulma is a selfish and a spoilt person, but this was a step too far.

She watched as the person she loved most was murdered by Vegeta's own men. Vegeta may not have directly killed Yamcha, but it was under his orders that it happened. Other close friends of hers were killed that day too. When she slept with and fell in love with Vegeta, he was still a psychotic monster who would happily murder everyone on Earth. What does it say about Bulma to fall in love with someone like that?

Forgiveness is one thing, but to fall in love with, marry, AND have this person's children? That is a massive betrayal to all of her friends.

Whenever she goes on one of her tantrums and acts all superior, somebody should remind her of this

[GamerSkull]

Super Saiyan Goten and Super Saiyan Trunks.

When i watched these two moments as a kid, i thought it was really cool, but i kind of hate it now. Some things i can let the show get away with, but watching a kid who didn't know how to fly and couldn't even fire a perfect ki blast turn into a Super Saiyan was too much for me to accept. Trunks going Super Saiyan is easier to deal with because he was training with Vegeta, but still, it's not enough for me to accept even from him.

It just makes me think, well if they can do it, why wasn't Gohan turning Super Saiyan during the Saiyan saga or Vegeta when he was growing up ? They went through a hell of a lot as kids.

I didn't feel like we seen enough of them to warrant the form, it just made Super Saiyan look cheap.

This is one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of the final two arcs... there are things that directly contradict each other. Such as the Super Saiyan being awakened by a pure heart and that Vegeta seemingly attained it off-screen. There's just a lot of stuff that I find unearned... like Vegeta being accepted by the group (him essentially being rewarded with a family despite his bad history and acting like we should be happy for the characters involved), Goten and Trunks going Super Saiyan (which I think should have just been a transformation done during fusion), the potara earrings not actually lasting long enough at all, and other stuff like that.

I will always maintain that the Freeza arc should have been tweaked enough to be the final arc... and it's the arc I end up stopping on during most of my rewatches... as I'm so sour on some of the stuff that happens later that I feel like it's more of a chore to go through. (For me anyway)

Now that you have bought up Vegeta getting a family, it reminded me of another thing.......and it's to do with Bulma.

Her falling in love, marrying and having Vegeta's children is possibly the worst thing she ever did in Dragon Ball. I know Bulma is a selfish and a spoilt person, but this was a step too far.

She watched as the person she loved most was murdered by Vegeta's own men. Vegeta may not have directly killed Yamcha, but it was under his orders that it happened. Other close friends of hers were killed that day too. When she slept with and fell in love with Vegeta, he was still a psychotic monster who would happily murder everyone on Earth. What does it say about Bulma to fall in love with someone like that?

Forgiveness is one thing, but to fall in love with, marry, AND have this person's children? That is a massive betrayal to all of her friends.

Whenever she goes on one of her tantrums and acts all superior, somebody should remind her of this

It doesn't help that she was originally portrayed as someone who overreacted to Yamcha getting attention from other girls when he has never been shown to do anything. But she has... like when she said "It doesn't hurt to keep my eye out for an upgrade" when she thought Jackie Chun might be hot even though she was there to cheer on Yamcha or even when she went nuts over General Blue. I get that this was played up for a gag but still...

And yeah, to this day, I find that pairing very jarring. It's not like he went through his character arc in the Buu saga and was redeemed before that relationship started... it started while he was still arguably an evil douchebag. But to be honest, I'm not a fan of how EVERYONE seems to forgive Vegeta so easily, not just her. In fact, they witnessed Majin Vegeta kill people and never seemed to question him about that afterwards. I know the people were wished back, but that doesn't wipe away his crime. The characters in this series are way too forgiving... sometimes unbelievably so.

I think Toriyama put them together solely because he wanted another saiyan... and now the ship is super popular for some reason. To the point where fanfic writers seem to make Yamcha out to be some abuser or rapist in order to make the pairing look good. Which honestly... kinds of makes me feel sick to my stomach seeing as how he's my favorite character.

Well, as far as I know, Tenshinhan still seems to hate Vegeta so there's that. Not sure if he is amicable with Vegeta in the Tournament of Power later on in Dragon Ball Super as I'm not caught up yet.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I'm sorry but can you please post on my thread about the issue of Yamcha being vilified by Fanfic Writers? Its really vile and I would like to see more people speak up against that.

[Night Owl]

Bulma's selfishness is probably a fair feature to analyse considering nobody trusted Vegeta's purity of heart when Beerus shows up at the start of Super. People are clearly at least somewhat suspicious of him. The whole Majin turn probably didn't help, either.

[GamerSkull]

Bulma's selfishness is probably a fair feature to analyse considering nobody trusted Vegeta's purity of heart when Beerus shows up at the start of Super. People are clearly at least somewhat suspicious of him. The whole Majin turn probably didn't help, either.

Still, Bulma being interested in Vegeta... who at that point had been part of the reason her ex-boyfriend died and had killed entire populations of people. I mean, I understand that she went a bit gooey over Zarbon but she barely knew anything about him. She was perfectly aware of Vegeta's past, or should have been, by the time she ended up sleeping with him.

People don't think Vegeta's hear is pure... but it seems evident that everyone has forgiven him to the extent that his presence doesn't bother them in the slightest. Nobody seems to really mind him all that much... they just don't find him having a righteous heart.

I understand that I'm in the minority when it comes to liking Yamcha, but it's kind of insulting to see him tossed to the side, without any meaningful send-off, and done with the primary purpose of pushing Bulma and Vegeta and getting fans to accept the new pairing. Yamcha jobbed constantly in original Dragon Ball and while that bothers me to some extent... it pales in comparison to what Toriyama ended up doing to him in the Cell arc.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Super Saiyan Goten and Super Saiyan Trunks.

When i watched these two moments as a kid, i thought it was really cool, but i kind of hate it now. Some things i can let the show get away with, but watching a kid who didn't know how to fly and couldn't even fire a perfect ki blast turn into a Super Saiyan was too much for me to accept. Trunks going Super Saiyan is easier to deal with because he was training with Vegeta, but still, it's not enough for me to accept even from him.

It just makes me think, well if they can do it, why wasn't Gohan turning Super Saiyan during the Saiyan saga or Vegeta when he was growing up ? They went through a hell of a lot as kids.

I didn't feel like we seen enough of them to warrant the form, it just made Super Saiyan look cheap.

This is one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of the final two arcs... there are things that directly contradict each other. Such as the Super Saiyan being awakened by a pure heart and that Vegeta seemingly attained it off-screen. There's just a lot of stuff that I find unearned... like Vegeta being accepted by the group (him essentially being rewarded with a family despite his bad history and acting like we should be happy for the characters involved), Goten and Trunks going Super Saiyan (which I think should have just been a transformation done during fusion), the potara earrings not actually lasting long enough at all, and other stuff like that.

I will always maintain that the Freeza arc should have been tweaked enough to be the final arc... and it's the arc I end up stopping on during most of my rewatches... as I'm so sour on some of the stuff that happens later that I feel like it's more of a chore to go through. (For me anyway)

I used to also be bothered by that all the time but I recently came to realisation that it wasn't actually a contradiction per se. It was just a way of attaining SS not the only way, there wasn't any direct confirmation in the Freeza arc that this was the only way to achieve it, it was just Freeza's assumption being pure of heart is why Vegeta couldn't get it.

As for Vegeta being accepted I do feel it was earned after his sacrifice against Buu but before then it was odd seeing him be chummy with everyone at the start of the Buu arc given the way Vegeta was in the Cell arc that doesn't make sense they'd all be like that with him. In fact his sacrifice would have been more impactful if he was estranged from the group until that point and that was the catalyst that made him accepted, group would realise this is a different Vegeta.

[ABED]

It's not a contradiction. You are taking the lines at face value. There's nothing that definitively proves that you have to be pure of heart to attain Super Saiyan.

Being estranged from the group would assume he was part of the group to begin with.

Like a lot of people, I used to put a lot emphasis on power levels, now not so much. I'm not sure when or what caused the change.