Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

[Doctor.]

Some of the characteristics that Goku displays in this arc also appear inconsistently. A prime example being how Goku goes from wanting to prevent Freeza to reaching his maximum power to allowing Freeza to power-up so he could beat him at his best in the space of one episode/one chapter.

How is this inconsistent? He was filled with rage, managed to collect himself for a moment and thought of a better way to avenge Kuririn and went with the plan.

And despite Goku’s hunger for battle, he tries to walk away from his fight with Freeza… twice. What happened with regards to that big speech about him swearing he’ll defeat Freeza?

He did defeat Freeza. That's the point. Freeza was already beaten so there was no point in continuing it even further and risk dying on Namek for a pointless fight. He says this.

Did it never happen? It’s like if in the Saiyan arc after Goku realising that the gap in power between himself and Nappa was large enough to make Nappa a non-threat to him and that Nappa is fighting a losing battle, he decides instead out breaking out Kaioken to finish the fight, he just stopping fighting him and the focuses his attention on Vegeta instead.

That's what Goku did. He told Nappa he was outmatched after dodging his blows and told him to give up. He only used Kaioken to immobilize Nappa because he was going for his friends. Why would Goku finish off Freeza when his friends were safe?

Then his attitude flip-flops again from trying to get Freeza killed from his own attack to trying to prevent Freeza from getting cut from his own attack.

He didn't do that? He baited Freeza into dodging it so he could hit him from above. And that's precisely what happened. Or do you think Goku, after all he went through, can't judge Freeza's skill well enough that he'd knew he'd dodge such a basic trick?

I also found it strange that Goku suddenly becomes this weird beacon of morality the moment he touches down on Namek. I mean, it kinda works in a thematic sense, but how it's used in the Freeza fight is very haphazard. It is rather odd that he suddenly becomes so unwilling to kill, and it’s even more unusual considering he's doesn’t really act like that afterwards. Goku’s characterisation in this arc is just all over the place and only seems to fit the needs of the plot.

But Goku's been this "weird beacon of morality," as you put it, since he became an adult. He spared Piccolo, he let Raditz go and he gave Nappa and Vegeta a chance to leave the planet. This isn't exclusive to the Namek arc, it comes from previous arcs.

As to why he doesn't act like that afterwards, you can rationalize that, after Freeza betrayed his good faith, he learned better. A bit of headcanon, sure, but it's perfectly logical, I feel.

I’d also say that Goku is less of a character and more of a plot device in this arc. Goku’s only role in the arc to be side-lined before conveniently before inserting himself back into the plot and saving the day. Now this has happened before, in both the King Piccolo arc and Saiyan arc. But there is significant difference how it played in those arcs and in the Freeza arc. In those arcs, the narrative still majorly focuses on Goku’s journey in a meaningful fashion and the plot threads of those arcs originate from Goku. There’s no unique spin on this in the Freeza arc.

I agree that Goku feels more like a plot device, someone to save the day, in the same way he has been portrayed in previous arcs, but you're doing the Freeza arc a disservice if you claim it has nothing to do with Goku's journey or he has no arc. Does the acceptance of his heritage and the Super Saiyan transformation and his inner turmoil during it not count for anything now?

[Forte224]

It's not solid proof. It's what Piccolo thinks Gohan is thinking, but we've never seen Gohan think anything along those lines.

I'm sure this conversation is already over, but typical anime writing is: If a character thinks another character is thinking something, and it's never expounded on again, then that's what that character was thinking. Because Gohan wasn't actually thinking, because he is a fictional character. If the only thing Toriyama gave us was what Piccolo thinks Gohan's thinking, then that's what Gohan was thinking. This is why I stay away from in-universe discussions, because everyone treats characters as if they are real thinking people.

It's just like Goku's recent Ultra Instinct transformation. Whis goes into what he thinks happened to Goku and how he achieved the form. But, that literally means that's what happened to Goku and that's how he achieved the form. Unless we're given details later but the chances of that are low at this point. Anyway, I'm starting to go off-topic.

[GamerSkull]

It's not solid proof. It's what Piccolo thinks Gohan is thinking, but we've never seen Gohan think anything along those lines.

I'm sure this conversation is already over, but typical anime writing is: If a character thinks another character is thinking something, and it's never expounded on again, then that's what that character was thinking. Because Gohan wasn't actually thinking, because he is a fictional character. If the only thing Toriyama gave us was what Piccolo thinks Gohan's thinking, then that's what Gohan was thinking. This is why I stay away from in-universe discussions, because everyone treats characters as if they are real thinking people.

It's just like Goku's recent Ultra Instinct transformation. Whis goes into what he thinks happened to Goku and how he achieved the form. But, that literally means that's what happened to Goku and that's how he achieved the form. Unless we're given details later but the chances of that are low at this point. Anyway, I'm starting to go off-topic.

So you're basically saying... a character's thoughts is often in-universe exposition so that Toriyama can explain what's going on and the fact that there is nothing to contradict it means that it is likely 100% true despite being told through the voice of a character that might not have all the facts.

If that made sense... LOL

Well, if it us what I think it is then I agree with you.

[ABED]

It's not solid proof. It's what Piccolo thinks Gohan is thinking, but we've never seen Gohan think anything along those lines.

I'm sure this conversation is already over, but typical anime writing is: If a character thinks another character is thinking something, and it's never expounded on again, then that's what that character was thinking. Because Gohan wasn't actually thinking, because he is a fictional character. If the only thing Toriyama gave us was what Piccolo thinks Gohan's thinking, then that's what Gohan was thinking. This is why I stay away from in-universe discussions, because everyone treats characters as if they are real thinking people.

It's just like Goku's recent Ultra Instinct transformation. Whis goes into what he thinks happened to Goku and how he achieved the form. But, that literally means that's what happened to Goku and that's how he achieved the form. Unless we're given details later but the chances of that are low at this point. Anyway, I'm starting to go off-topic.

So you're basically saying... a character's thoughts is often in-universe exposition so that Toriyama can explain what's going on and the fact that there is nothing to contradict it means that it is likely 100% true despite being told through the voice of a character that might not have all the facts.

If that made sense... LOL

Well, if it us what I think it is then I agree with you.

But if he wants to tell the audience what GOhan is thinking, he can literally tell the audience what Gohan is thinking. It's not like he's never used voice over or thought bubbles before. I don't buy the whole "typical anime writing". Why have another character say it when you can get it first hand? WHat's the payoff for Gohan thinking this?

When has Goku ever thought something like that about his father?

[GamerSkull]

I'm sure this conversation is already over, but typical anime writing is: If a character thinks another character is thinking something, and it's never expounded on again, then that's what that character was thinking. Because Gohan wasn't actually thinking, because he is a fictional character. If the only thing Toriyama gave us was what Piccolo thinks Gohan's thinking, then that's what Gohan was thinking. This is why I stay away from in-universe discussions, because everyone treats characters as if they are real thinking people.

It's just like Goku's recent Ultra Instinct transformation. Whis goes into what he thinks happened to Goku and how he achieved the form. But, that literally means that's what happened to Goku and that's how he achieved the form. Unless we're given details later but the chances of that are low at this point. Anyway, I'm starting to go off-topic.

So you're basically saying... a character's thoughts is often in-universe exposition so that Toriyama can explain what's going on and the fact that there is nothing to contradict it means that it is likely 100% true despite being told through the voice of a character that might not have all the facts.

If that made sense... LOL

Well, if it us what I think it is then I agree with you.

But if he wants to tell the audience what GOhan is thinking, he can literally tell the audience what Gohan is thinking. It's not like he's never used voice over or thought bubbles before. I don't buy the whole "typical anime writing". Why have another character say it when you can get it first hand? WHat's the payoff for Gohan thinking this?

When has Goku ever thought something like that about his father?

I'm thinking he chose to do it like that because it was supposed to be something Goku needed to consider and so Piccolo, being right next to him, was the one to get it.

I could be wrong though, I haven't watch the Cell arc in a while.

[ABED]

This has now become pretty tangential. I understand your point, I simply don't believe it fits all the facts.

I know that people do use morality as a metric to judge characters, I wouldn't put high on the list, especially not for DB.

[Forte224]

It's not solid proof. It's what Piccolo thinks Gohan is thinking, but we've never seen Gohan think anything along those lines.

I'm sure this conversation is already over, but typical anime writing is: If a character thinks another character is thinking something, and it's never expounded on again, then that's what that character was thinking. Because Gohan wasn't actually thinking, because he is a fictional character. If the only thing Toriyama gave us was what Piccolo thinks Gohan's thinking, then that's what Gohan was thinking. This is why I stay away from in-universe discussions, because everyone treats characters as if they are real thinking people.

It's just like Goku's recent Ultra Instinct transformation. Whis goes into what he thinks happened to Goku and how he achieved the form. But, that literally means that's what happened to Goku and that's how he achieved the form. Unless we're given details later but the chances of that are low at this point. Anyway, I'm starting to go off-topic.

So you're basically saying... a character's thoughts is often in-universe exposition so that Toriyama can explain what's going on and the fact that there is nothing to contradict it means that it is likely 100% true despite being told through the voice of a character that might not have all the facts.

If that made sense... LOL

Well, if it us what I think it is then I agree with you.

That's exactly what I mean. People try to make Dragon Ball deeper than it really is. Toriyama in particular doesn't go that deep so as to make us think "Hmm, that's what Piccolo said but maybe.....maybe Gohan didn't actually feel that way." But whatever. In general I don't like this part of the Cell arc and it doesn't make a lot of sense regardless. I thought that English Kai had gone off its rails with the translation of the dialogue when I first its dub of the Cell Games, but now after having watched it in Japanese I realize that nope. That's just how it is.

[Lord Beerus]

How is this inconsistent? He was filled with rage, managed to collect himself for a moment and thought of a better way to avenge Kuririn and went with the plan.

It's inconsistent because it's a direct conflict with his previous mentality of wanting to kill Freeza before he could become stronger and be a threat in battle. And what make you think Goku wasn't already composed enough? Hell, he had the capacity to give that whole "I AM THE SUPER SAIYAN, SON GOKU!!" speech. So he was very much mentally collected enough to know what should be done.

He did defeat Freeza. That's the point. Freeza was already beaten so there was no point in continuing it even further and risk dying on Namek for a pointless fight. He says this.

But even when Freeza was losing the fight, he was still a threat to Goku. The fight may have been over from Goku's perspective, but it really wasn't as Freeza came close to killing him even when Freeza was gassing out.

That's what Goku did. He told Nappa he was outmatched after dodging his blows and told him to give up. He only used Kaioken to immobilize Nappa because he was going for his friends. Why would Goku finish off Freeza when his friends were safe?

But Freeza could still pose a threat, even if he was burning through his Ki as Goku commented on. Hell, that's exactly what happens. Nappa couldn't do anything to do Goku after Goku's Kaioken attack as he could barely even move.

He didn't do that? He baited Freeza into dodging it so he could hit him from above. And that's precisely what happened. Or do you think Goku, after all he went through, can't judge Freeza's skill well enough that he'd knew he'd dodge such a basic trick?

Missing a bit context here. Goku baits Freeza into dodging the Kienzan and when he knocks him down and Freeza ends up kneeling, and potentially being in a position to dodge the Keinzan coming from behind him, Goku tells Freeza to stay down so he doesn't get hit by the attack. Freeza stands up and get bifurcated by his own attack. And before that Goku was trying to get Freeza hit by his own attack. Hell, Freeza himself comments that is what Goku is trying to do. And yet Goku tries to prevent Freeza from getting attack by telling him to stay down. So... yeah. This scene had Goku motives being wildly inconsistent.

But Goku's been this "weird beacon of morality," as you put it, since he became an adult. He spared Piccolo, he let Raditz go and he gave Nappa and Vegeta a chance to leave the planet. This isn't exclusive to the Namek arc, it comes from previous arcs.

As to why he doesn't act like that afterwards, you can rationalize that, after Freeza betrayed his good faith, he learned better. A bit of headcanon, sure, but it's perfectly logical, I feel.

Raditz already betrayed the earnest faith that Goku put in him when they fought. He should have learned better after that point. Especially since Raditz was his brother and that act eventually leading to him dying.

I agree that Goku feels more like a plot device, someone to save the day, in the same way he has been portrayed in previous arcs, but you're doing the Freeza arc a disservice if you claim it has nothing to do with Goku's journey or he has no arc. Does the acceptance of his heritage and the Super Saiyan transformation and his inner turmoil during it not count for anything now?

Goku's character just doesn't feel defined with how inconsistent his actions are. The initial intentions are good enough with Goku stating that he is also a Saiyan, wanting (a deceased) Vegeta to lend him some pride in his fight against Freeza and openly stating he will destroy Freeza for all the Namekians and Saiyans he's killed. But instead of embracing the pride of Saiyan and killing Freeza to avenge his race when he has the chance to as a Super Saiyan he tries to walk away from the battle twice and tells Freeza to try and escape Namek. Is that really prideful Saiyan would do? Especially when he wanted stated he want destroy Freeza? His mindset changes from wanting to kill Freeza to preferring he stay alive so much that just seem more arbitrary than really him having any kind of internal conflict. The only time where Goku displayed some kind of mental struggle as to whether he should change Freeza's fate is when Freeza begs him for energy. Which while is good moment, it feel more like an isolated scene rather than a natural transition from previous events with how Goku acts.

[ABED]

I'm sure this conversation is already over, but typical anime writing is: If a character thinks another character is thinking something, and it's never expounded on again, then that's what that character was thinking. Because Gohan wasn't actually thinking, because he is a fictional character. If the only thing Toriyama gave us was what Piccolo thinks Gohan's thinking, then that's what Gohan was thinking. This is why I stay away from in-universe discussions, because everyone treats characters as if they are real thinking people.

It's just like Goku's recent Ultra Instinct transformation. Whis goes into what he thinks happened to Goku and how he achieved the form. But, that literally means that's what happened to Goku and that's how he achieved the form. Unless we're given details later but the chances of that are low at this point. Anyway, I'm starting to go off-topic.

So you're basically saying... a character's thoughts is often in-universe exposition so that Toriyama can explain what's going on and the fact that there is nothing to contradict it means that it is likely 100% true despite being told through the voice of a character that might not have all the facts.

If that made sense... LOL

Well, if it us what I think it is then I agree with you.

That's exactly what I mean. People try to make Dragon Ball deeper than it really is. Toriyama in particular doesn't go that deep so as to make us think "Hmm, that's what Piccolo said but maybe.....maybe Gohan didn't actually feel that way." But whatever. In general I don't like this part of the Cell arc and it doesn't make a lot of sense regardless. I thought that English Kai had gone off its rails with the translation of the dialogue when I first its dub of the Cell Games, but now after having watched it in Japanese I realize that nope. That's just how it is.

That is in no way deep

[Doctor.]

It's inconsistent because it's a direct conflict with his previous mentality of wanting to kill Freeza before he could become stronger and be a threat in battle. And what make you think Goku wasn't already composed enough? Hell, he had the capacity to give that whole "I AM THE SUPER SAIYAN, SON GOKU!!" speech. So he was very much mentally collected enough to know what should be done.

Seems to me like you're misinterpreting Goku's motivations throughout the fight. First off, before he turned Super Saiyan, he never said he'd kill or destroy Freeza. He says he'll defeat him. Second, after he turns Super Saiyan, his main objective isn't killing Freeza before he could become a threat. His main objective is humiliating Freeza. It's why he tells him to go ahead and shoot him in the face and says "suit yourself" when Freeza states he'd rather kill himself than die by his hand. Goku tries to kill Freeza when he said he'd start powering-up to 100% because he was angry and thought Freeza was just stalling time until Namek blew up. When he saw that Freeza was for real, then he waited it out.

Characters can have multiple motivations that work towards the same objective; in some cases, they can even be contradictory. But Goku's motivations are all fairly straight forward and I don't really understand why you're having such trouble reconciling them.

- Goku wants to defeat Freeza to avenge the others, which gets replaced by Goku wanting to kill Freeza to avenge Kuririn;
- Goku wants to fight Freeza for his own enjoyment, which is an ever-present motivation;
- Goku wants to defeat Freeza at 100% to humiliate him and also so that they would both have no regrets.

Goku's Super Saiyan transformation was marked by a loss of self; Kaio even clarifies that theme for the audience in case it wasn't clear. Goku fought to overcome his rage and stay true to himself throughout the entire fight, which he ends up doing by the end. That's why his motivations seemingly change at random and why he can be collected in one moment and burst into rage if you say something you shouldn't. As he tries to control himself, his desire to kill starts going away. Seen by these lens, all his decisions and actions make sense. They're perfectly in-character and they are appropriate for what the narrative is trying to portray.

But even when Freeza was losing the fight, he was still a threat to Goku. The fight may have been over from Goku's perspective, but it really wasn't as Freeza came close to killing him even when Freeza was gassing out.

Depends on what you consider by threat. He was still able to fight but Goku considered him harmless by that point. Considering how Freeza didn't lay anything more than a scratch on him through a sneak-attack, he wasn't exactly wrong in his assessment.

But Freeza could still pose a threat, even if he was burning through his Ki as Goku commented on. Hell, that's exactly what happens. Nappa couldn't do anything to do Goku after Goku's Kaioken attack as he could barely even move.

Again, Goku didn't think Freeza was a threat anymore, so he told him to leave. I don't understand why you have such a problem with this.

Missing a bit context here. Goku baits Freeza into dodging the Kienzan and when he knocks him down and Freeza ends up kneeling, and potentially being in a position to dodge the Keinzan coming from behind him, Goku tells Freeza to stay down so he doesn't get hit by the attack. Freeza stands up and get bifurcated by his own attack. And before that Goku was trying to get Freeza hit by his own attack. Hell, Freeza himself comments that is what Goku is trying to do. And yet Goku tries to prevent Freeza from getting attack by telling him to stay down. So... yeah. This scene had Goku motives being wildly inconsistent.

Seems like you're still misunderstanding the scene. Goku knew Freeza would dodge, which is why he was exactly above him ready to strike the moment Freeza dodged the attack. The intent wasn't to kill Freeza with his own attack, the intent was to bait him into dodging and lead him to his follow-up blow.

Raditz already betrayed the earnest faith that Goku put in him when they fought. He should have learned better after that point. Especially since Raditz was his brother and that act eventually leading to him dying.

I don't see why a person should give up on humanity after one guy refused to reform. Regardless, he still gave Nappa and Vegeta a chance to leave the planet even after they murdered all his friends. So if you want to consider Goku's morality a problem, then it started back in the Saiyan arc.

But instead of embracing the pride of Saiyan and killing Freeza to avenge his race when he has the chance to as a Super Saiyan he tries to walk away from the battle twice and tells Freeza to try and escape Namek. Is that really prideful Saiyan would do? Especially when he wanted stated he want destroy Freeza?

Again, he said he'd beat Freeza, not kill. He started saying he'd kill Freeza after the SS transformation, at which point the battle was no longer about avenging the Saiyans and the Namekians, people he didn't even know, but it was a more personal conflict related to the murder of his best friend. The Saiyan genocide is really no longer on his mind at that point; Freeza even calls attention to the fact that the Saiyans were even bigger killers and Goku just tells him "that's why we perished."

It's (partly) because of Goku's pride that he let Freeza go 100%.

His mindset changes from wanting to kill Freeza to preferring he stay alive so much that just seem more arbitrary than really him having any kind of internal conflict.

He wants to defeat Freeza to avenge those that have fallen -> He wants to kill Freeza due to the rage he's feeling -> manages to cool down and compose himself somewhat and stay true to his compassionate self.

It's really not that inconsistent. There's definitely an internal struggle that permeates the entire fight, you're just failing to see it.

[KBABZ]

Dragon Ball Minus is my favourite iteration of Goku.

[Forte224]

So you're basically saying... a character's thoughts is often in-universe exposition so that Toriyama can explain what's going on and the fact that there is nothing to contradict it means that it is likely 100% true despite being told through the voice of a character that might not have all the facts.

If that made sense... LOL

Well, if it us what I think it is then I agree with you.

That's exactly what I mean. People try to make Dragon Ball deeper than it really is. Toriyama in particular doesn't go that deep so as to make us think "Hmm, that's what Piccolo said but maybe.....maybe Gohan didn't actually feel that way." But whatever. In general I don't like this part of the Cell arc and it doesn't make a lot of sense regardless. I thought that English Kai had gone off its rails with the translation of the dialogue when I first its dub of the Cell Games, but now after having watched it in Japanese I realize that nope. That's just how it is.

That is in no way deep

Yes I know. But it's still deeper than Toriyama is willing to go.

[Michsi]

That's exactly what I mean. People try to make Dragon Ball deeper than it really is. Toriyama in particular doesn't go that deep so as to make us think "Hmm, that's what Piccolo said but maybe.....maybe Gohan didn't actually feel that way." But whatever. In general I don't like this part of the Cell arc and it doesn't make a lot of sense regardless. I thought that English Kai had gone off its rails with the translation of the dialogue when I first its dub of the Cell Games, but now after having watched it in Japanese I realize that nope. That's just how it is.

That is in no way deep

Yes I know. But it's still deeper than Toriyama is willing to go.

I think by 'deep' we mean 'complex'. Using another character for exposition is common, especially for DB. It makes everything simple and easy, and that's exactly what Toriyama likes. That's what I meant by taking statements at face value, they're just there to explain something to us.

[ABED]

It's not that complex or deep, even for Toriyama. It's just Piccolo trying desperately to get Goku to act. That's still pretty surface level. It doesn't mesh at all with Gohan's character, but then again, this whole part of the arc isn't written well, so I could be wrong because this doesn't mesh with Gohan's character. He's never once thought something like this about his father. Though I still think you all believe Gohan did think that because YOU disagree with Goku's actions.

All of this is irrelevant, though, because why does it matter if Goku an ass if the question is what your favorite iteration of Son Goku is. He's done worse.

[Michsi]

It's not that complex or deep, even for Toriyama. It's just Piccolo trying desperately to get Goku to act.

See, that is an interpretation. As far as I see Piccolo is just chewing him out, not to mention it's Goku that's trying to stop Piccolo from acting.

We all think Piccolo is right because, as it's been repeated again and again, character statements are always used for exposition. Nothing more than that. The story very obviously shows that Goku was in the wrong here with how he handled it. The fact that he then looks over at Gohan shocked, as if just realizing something, means Piccolo's words rang true with him, and that is another point in favor of that statement being accurate. The scene really is as straightforward as can be.

And again, it's absolutely mindboggling for me how "being an ass" is someone not a factor in deciding whether you like a character or not, which is basically what favorite iteration of X basically means. As you can see, people make distinctions between Goku behavior and personality in different arcs, and what he did with Gohan is crucial to his role and image in the Cell arc.

[ABED]

And again, it's absolutely mindboggling for me how "being an ass" is someone not a factor in deciding whether you like a character or not

It's mindboggling to me that you never seem to give a explanation why it should be a factor. All you do is say that it is one for some, which I already know. And not to mention, it's fiction! Plenty of people love villains and antiheroes. All that matters is if the character is interesting. Your favorite version doesn't mean you like them, not in the moral sense. Vegeta and Freeza are reprehensible, but they are among many people's favorite characters.

[Michsi]

And again, it's absolutely mindboggling for me how "being an ass" is someone not a factor in deciding whether you like a character or not

It's mindboggling to me that you never seem to give a explanation why it should be a factor. All you do is say that it is one for some, which I already know. And not to mention, it's fiction! Plenty of people love villains and antiheroes. All that matters is if the character is interesting. Your favorite version doesn't mean you like them, not in the moral sense. Vegeta and Freeza are reprehensible, but they are among many people's favorite characters.

I wouldn't even know where to start to give an explanation how "being and ass" can make someone not like a character. Interesting or intriguing is nor synonymous with likeable, and most care more about a character being likeable.

[ABED]

And again, it's absolutely mindboggling for me how "being an ass" is someone not a factor in deciding whether you like a character or not

It's mindboggling to me that you never seem to give a explanation why it should be a factor. All you do is say that it is one for some, which I already know. And not to mention, it's fiction! Plenty of people love villains and antiheroes. All that matters is if the character is interesting. Your favorite version doesn't mean you like them, not in the moral sense. Vegeta and Freeza are reprehensible, but they are among many people's favorite characters.

I wouldn't even know where to start to give an explanation how "being and ass" can make someone not like a character. Interesting or intriguing is nor synonymous with likeable, and most care more about a character being likeable.

That's not the question the thread asks. They ask "favorite iteration", not "most likable".

[Michsi]

It's mindboggling to me that you never seem to give a explanation why it should be a factor. All you do is say that it is one for some, which I already know. And not to mention, it's fiction! Plenty of people love villains and antiheroes. All that matters is if the character is interesting. Your favorite version doesn't mean you like them, not in the moral sense. Vegeta and Freeza are reprehensible, but they are among many people's favorite characters.

I wouldn't even know where to start to give an explanation how "being and ass" can make someone not like a character. Interesting or intriguing is nor synonymous with likeable, and most care more about a character being likeable.

That's not the question the thread asks. They ask "favorite iteration", not "most likable".

And these two are connected....like, inherently so.

[ABED]

Not neccessarily. A charcter doesn't have to be a good guy or do good things to be found enjoyable.

I'm sure there are plenty of people whose favorite iteration of Vegeta is when he was a straight up villain. The reason I find Goku so enjoyable in the 23rd TB is in part because he is so driven to win the tournament despite the stakes. He doesn't want outside interference even when all of his limbs have been broken. He's near death and yet he still tells everyone he doesn't want their aid. Then after the battle he lets Piccolo go because he wants someone to keep him on his toes. Both choices are morally questionable at best. Goku's obsessive nature is interesting to me.