Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

[Doctor.]

Yes, I believe that Goku's change was unintentional and unconscious as well. But there is definitely a change.

[ABED]

And why does it matter if I used the anime? For the record, I looked up the scene in the manga and it's as I wrote.

Because that is one of the clearest, most point blank pieces evidence of what I'm saying, and I thought the anime might have changed that a bit. Goku has no interest in fighting Black, he just wanted to get the Dragon Balls for Upa's father. Never said that Goku was a sociopath that killed whoever angered him, but he spared their lives 0 thought when it came to finishing them off. I repeat, he pursues someone that didn't want to fight anymore and causes their death. He is then happy he managed it.
And then there is the Tambourine/Nappa comparison too. Disregard all of it if you want, but I think I have enough support from the story to keep believing that there is a change in Goku, whether that was the author's intention or not.

Fleeing isn't the same as asking for mercy, and I didn't disregard your other examples.

When he kills Freeza, he just killed the greatest opponent he's ever faced. Goku doesn't like killing strong opponents.

Your evidence is that he's changed except that HE hasn't changed, circumstances changed. No one has ever asked him for mercy to that point and actually meant it. You inferred the change. He doesn't celebrate Tao Pai Pai's death, either. He's happy that he is one step closer to bringing Bora back to life.

But there is definitely a change.

So, you think it's bad writing? That change, if there is one, wasn't dramatized.

When he explodes, like with Tao Pai Pai, Goku looks on with glee.

In the manga, that's flat out untrue. He's happy to have defeated Tao Pai Pai, but he was happy because he can now go after the DB's. Your argument that he's changed comes down to Freeza, but he's not sad or remorseful about killing Buu. Goku is inconsistent in his reactions, but there is no grand change in his personality.

[Doctor.]

So, you think it's bad writing? That change, if there is one, wasn't dramatized.

I don't see why the change has to necessarily be bad writing. It's a by-product of Toriyama writing weekly for years, his perception of his characters is going to change with time.

[ABED]

So, you think it's bad writing? That change, if there is one, wasn't dramatized.

I don't see why the change has to necessarily be bad writing. It's a by-product of Toriyama writing weekly for years, his perception of his characters is going to change with time.

It's bad because you need to dramatize something like that, either the change or the impetus for the change. It's not the change itself that's bad, it's the lack of dramatization.

[Doctor.]

So, you think it's bad writing? That change, if there is one, wasn't dramatized.

I don't see why the change has to necessarily be bad writing. It's a by-product of Toriyama writing weekly for years, his perception of his characters is going to change with time.

It's bad because you need to dramatize something like that, either the change or the impetus for the change. It's not the change itself that's bad, it's the lack of dramatization.

Goku matured with age. You didn't need to dramatize the fact that he learned how to distinguish boys from girls without patting them, did you?

[ABED]

Goku matured with age. You didn't need to dramatize the fact that he learned how to distinguish boys from girls without patting them, did you?

No, we saw the impetus for it, and we see him interact with more and more people.

And how is showing Freeza mercy an example of him maturing?

[Michsi]

Your evidence-

My point of view.

except that HE hasn't changed, circumstances changed.

Your point of view.

So, you think it's bad writing? That change

Pretty sure I haven't so much as implied that.

In the manga, that's flat out untrue. He's happy to have defeated Tao Pai Pai,

I'm not saying he was dancing on his grave or that his demise brought him sadistic satisfaction, for Pete's sake. Of course he was happy he defeated him, that doesn't change what I've said.

And I'm done here.

[ABED]

Pretty sure I haven't so much as implied that.

But it IS bad writing. It wasn't shown or at least shown why he would change. I probably should have written "DO you think that's bad writing?"

[Doctor.]

Goku matured with age. You didn't need to dramatize the fact that he learned how to distinguish boys from girls without patting them, did you?

No, we saw the impetus for it, and we see him interact with more and more people.

And how is showing Freeza mercy an example of him maturing?

Valuing life more is clearly an example of him maturing. Why do kids kill bugs for fun?

[ABED]

Goku matured with age. You didn't need to dramatize the fact that he learned how to distinguish boys from girls without patting them, did you?

No, we saw the impetus for it, and we see him interact with more and more people.

And how is showing Freeza mercy an example of him maturing?

Valuing life more is clearly an example of him maturing. Why do kids kill bugs for fun?

But he doesn't value life more. He lets Vegeta go because he wants to fight him. He lets the cyborgs get created because he wants to fight them. You are dropping context.

It makes complete sense to me that Goku would take no pleasure in killing Freeza. Similar to why he let Vegeta go and asked for Buu to be reincarnated. He wants a good fight and he doesn't like seeing such strength wasted.

[Doctor.]

No, we saw the impetus for it, and we see him interact with more and more people.

And how is showing Freeza mercy an example of him maturing?

Valuing life more is clearly an example of him maturing. Why do kids kill bugs for fun?

But he doesn't value life more. He lets Vegeta go because he wants to fight him. He lets the cyborgs get created because he wants to fight them. You are dropping context.

Yes, and he lets Nappa, the Ginyus and Freeza go because he doesn't want to kill them, not because he wants to fight them again. He can have multiple motivations for his actions. He didn't let Piccolo go just because he wanted to save Kami or just because he wanted to fight Piccolo, it was both.

[ABED]

And how does that show change from when he was a kid. He doesn't immediately kill Silver, either. He tries to walk away from that fight.

[Doctor.]

And how does that show change from when he was a kid. He doesn't immediately kill Silver, either. He tries to walk away from that fight.

Because when he was a kid, he killed without remorse. We've been over this.

[8000 Saiyan]

Probably his DB portrayal.

[ABED]

And how does that show change from when he was a kid. He doesn't immediately kill Silver, either. He tries to walk away from that fight.

Because when he was a kid, he killed without remorse. We've been over this.

When he thought he killed Sgt. Metallic, he said he did a bad thing and even did a little prayer. He didn't kill without remorse. He doesn't like killing, but he will do it if he has to. He has no problem destroying Buu.

Another reason my favorite iteration of Goku is during the 23rd TB is because of his design. He's not grotesquely muscular. He looks strong, but very limber.

[KBABZ]

Are we really doing this again?

[ABED]

Are we really doing this again?

It's a forum, it's meant for debate.

[Doctor.]

When he thought he killed Sgt. Metallic, he said he did a bad thing and even did a little prayer. He didn't kill without remorse. He doesn't like killing, but he will do it if he has to. He has no problem destroying Buu.

I don't recall that. Mind posting the page or the chapter number?

He did kill without remorse. Or at least, he was less remorseful. You need only compare Tambourine, whom he chases down and kills for revenge, and Freeza, whom he gave two chances to walk away and really only 'killed' him once he was forced to. It seems he learned his lesson from Freeza, so I really wouldn't use anything past the Namek arc as an example. He has no qualms in killing Cell, Yakon and Dabura.

Are we really doing this again?

I don't understand what your problem is.

[ABED]

When he thought he killed Sgt. Metallic, he said he did a bad thing and even did a little prayer. He didn't kill without remorse. He doesn't like killing, but he will do it if he has to. He has no problem destroying Buu.

I don't recall that. Mind posting the page or the chapter number?

He did kill without remorse. Or at least, he was less remorseful. You need only compare Tambourine, whom he chases down and kills for revenge, and Freeza, whom he gave two chances to walk away and really only 'killed' him once he was forced to. It seems he learned his lesson from Freeza, so I really wouldn't use anything past the Namek arc as an example. He has no qualms in killing Cell, Yakon and Dabura.

Are we really doing this again?

I don't understand what your problem is.

Metallic is that Arnold looking robot that is protecting one of the floors of Muscle Tower.

Wait, so he shows no mercy before, matures, learns from Freeza, and goes back to not showing mercy?

Freeza is a huge outlier and I think it's less about him showing remorse and him feeling like it was a waste of the strongest opponent he had ever faced. Remember when he told Kuririn why he wanted him to let Vegeta go? He said that he thought "what a waste".

[Doctor.]

Metallic is that Arnold looking robot that is protecting one of the floors of Muscle Tower.

Wait, so he shows no mercy before, matures, learns from Freeza, and goes back to not showing mercy?

Freeza is a huge outlier and I think it's less about him showing remorse and him feeling like it was a waste of the strongest opponent he had ever faced. Remember when he told Kuririn why he wanted him to let Vegeta go? He said that he thought "what a waste".

I know who Metallic is, I was asking for the page. I went to check it out and you're right, but it's a different situation. He didn't really have a personal problem with him. We know what happens when kid Goku has a problem with someone, see the Piccolo Daimao arc.

Sure. Don't really see what's wrong with that interpretation. It's not necessarily character regression, if that's what you're implying.

Freeza isn't the only outlier. He shows mercy to Raditz, Nappa and the Ginyus whilst expressing that he never wants to see them again. You would have a point if it only happened with Freeza, but Freeza's just the more dramatized occasion because showing mercy to him is appropriate to his character arc after going Super Saiyan.