Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

[Michsi]

It's curious to see RRA arc Goku among the favorite iteration. I love Goku as a kid, but I always felt he was just a bit too callous. While I haven't seen RRA arc in a long time, I seem to remember Goku having no problem offing his opponents. He develops a conscience later on, tough ironically, he's also far more careless as an adult than he was as a child.

Could you name any specific examples? The only one I can think of are the Muscle Tower opponents in Major Mettalitron and Buyon, one of which is a robot and the other is a vicious and un-negotiable robot, and the octopus in the Pirate Cave. There are a lot of RRA soldiers, but I don't recall any of them being outright killed; even Goku left Colonel Silver in a stunned state before leaving. I guess the main one would be Tao Pai-Pai, but IMO that was Tao's fault because Goku had no choice but to kick the grenade away; in a sense it's similar to Frieza where the villain gets himself killed by putting Goku in a corner with a cheap attack.

Kid Goku's mook kills later on would be Tambourine and Drum, both of which are like Buyon in that they are heartless monsters. I have no familiarity on the filler stuff.

Well, not really specific, since I can't remember the events of this arc that clearly, and sometimes I mix-up manga and filler stuff when it comes to this part of the story, but I seem to remember him rushing a base and he just mows down anyone that gets in his way.

But since you brought up Tambourine, I guess that could count as an example too. See, Nappa killed more of his friends than Tambourine did, yet he abstained from going all out against him and ending his life. He still punished him, but mostly just wanted to make sure he would never be able to hurt anyone again. Similar thing happens with the Ginyu force later. The most relevant example here would be Freeza , who killed Krillin in cold blood right in front of him and prompted the SSJ transformation - he actually looked upset at having had to kill Freeza. He displays none of this mercy as a kid, as far as I can remember. I mean, he wouldn't kill anyone deliberately , but neither did he seem particularly concerned with holding back.

[ABED]

He displays none of this mercy as a kid, as far as I can remember

Tao Pai Pai. He tries to let him go. I don't know how many more times I have to say this. Sorry to sound so perturbed, but I've brought up this moment several times in this thread alone.

[Michsi]

He displays none of this mercy as a kid, as far as I can remember

Tao Pai Pai. He tries to let him go. I don't know how many more times I have to say this. Sorry to sound so perturbed, but I've brought up this moment several times in this thread alone.

I don't want to get into another debate, especially since I'm not as certain about this part of the story as others, but I seem to remember Goku being taken aback by Tao Pai Pai suddenly apologizing, but not actually getting around to saying he'd let him go. I think he was asking Opa what he should do. However, once Tao Pai Pai had apparently been blown to pieces, he celebrates happily. Compare that with how he reacts when he thinks he killed Freeza. And again, I'm referring strictly to how things are in the manga here.

[KBABZ]

Well, not really specific, since I can't remember the events of this arc that clearly, and sometimes I mix-up manga and filler stuff when it comes to this part of the story, but I seem to remember him rushing a base and he just mows down anyone that gets in his way.

In the manga, there are a bunch of guards standing outside the tower that Goku takes out entirely with one swing of his Power Pole. In the anime he also comes across a group of villagers under gunpoint on the way to Muscle Tower and takes their captors out with punches. Lastly of course there's the group on the first floor of the tower itself, who are taken out with punches and kicks as well. It's fairly generic and typical Dragon Ball fights for Kid Goku against mooks, but even in the Funimation dub there's no attempt at adding groaning or "DUDE MAH TRUCK!!" to make it look like they're still alive (which carries through to his assault on the RRA HQ). Despite that though, even when I was watching it as a twelve year old I never really got the impression that Goku was like, snapping their necks or anything, especially since Roshi's training discouraged that sort of thing.

But since you brought up Tambourine, I guess that could count as an example too. See, Nappa killed more of his friends than Tambourine did, yet he abstained from going all out against him and ending his life. He still punished him, but mostly just wanted to make sure he would never be able to hurt anyone again. Similar thing happens with the Ginyu force later. The most relevant example here would be Freeza, who killed Krillin in cold blood right in front of him and prompted the SSJ transformation - he actually looked upset at having had to kill Freeza. He displays none of this mercy as a kid, as far as I can remember. I mean, he wouldn't kill anyone deliberately , but neither did he seem particularly concerned with holding back.

Tambourine I almost see as a sort of proto-Frieza situation. In both scenarios, Krillin is killed and Goku goes on a rage-fuelled vendetta against their killer. Kid Goku's one however is way more angry than Adult Goku's IMO, and as a kid he acts doesn't seem out of character in a detractive way; it's understandable to me that he'd be out for blood there, especially considering it was the first death of a close friend, and an entirely needless one at that.

Funnily enough, I know there's no way this was intentional, but I always saw Goku losing the Nimbus as being a punishment for the way he acted. He's doing so very rashly and arguably doesn't have a pure heart at that point. Ergo, he loses the Nimbus and doesn't get it back until he's ready to face King Piccolo.

I seem to remember Goku being taken aback by Tao Pai Pai suddenly apologizing, but not actually getting around to saying he'd let him go. I think he was asking Opa what he should do. However, once Tao Pai Pai had apparently been blown to pieces, he celebrates happily. Compare that with how he reacts when he thinks he killed Freeza. And again, I'm referring strictly to how things are in the manga here.

Correct, in the manga he celebrates with "Yeah!!!" and Upa with "Banzai!!!" (at least in ViZ), so he's certainly pleased to have gotten rid of him.

[Michsi]

Well, not really specific, since I can't remember the events of this arc that clearly, and sometimes I mix-up manga and filler stuff when it comes to this part of the story, but I seem to remember him rushing a base and he just mows down anyone that gets in his way.

In the manga, there are a bunch of guards standing outside the tower that Goku takes out entirely with one swing of his Power Pole. In the anime he also comes across a group of villagers under gunpoint on the way to Muscle Tower and takes their captors out with punches. Lastly of course there's the group on the first floor of the tower itself, who are taken out with punches and kicks as well. It's fairly generic and typical Dragon Ball fights for Kid Goku against mooks, but even in the Funimation dub there's no attempt at adding groaning or "DUDE MAH TRUCK!!" to make it look like they're still alive (which carries through to his assault on the RRA HQ). Despite that though, even when I was watching it as a twelve year old I never really got the impression that Goku was like, snapping their necks or anything, especially since Roshi's training discouraged that sort of thing.

Sure, it was never supposed to be something brutal. We don't see him out-right kill the soldiers, but there seems to be 0 concern with taking care not to be too rough.

Tambourine I almost see as a sort of proto-Frieza situation. In both scenarios, Krillin is killed and Goku goes on a rage-fuelled vendetta against their killer. Kid Goku's one however is way more angry than Adult Goku's IMO, and as a kid he acts doesn't seem out of character in a detractive way; it's understandable to me that he'd be out for blood there, especially considering it was the first death of a close friend, and an entirely needless one at that.

I wasn't implying that he is out-of-character in either situation. I think he just develops a conscience as an adult and seems more capable of mercy and compassion than he did as a kid. (And it's ironic that it's also as an adult that he does the most selfish and reckless things, but that's another discussion) Kid Goku strikes me as a bit more feral, which is understandable given that he spent most of his life isolated. He has a very basic understanding of right and wrong, but there also a crudeness to him because of that.

[ABED]

He displays none of this mercy as a kid, as far as I can remember

Tao Pai Pai. He tries to let him go. I don't know how many more times I have to say this. Sorry to sound so perturbed, but I've brought up this moment several times in this thread alone.

I don't want to get into another debate, especially since I'm not as certain about this part of the story as others, but I seem to remember Goku being taken aback by Tao Pai Pai suddenly apologizing, but not actually getting around to saying he'd let him go. I think he was asking Opa what he should do. However, once Tao Pai Pai had apparently been blown to pieces, he celebrates happily. Compare that with how he reacts when he thinks he killed Freeza. And again, I'm referring strictly to how things are in the manga here.

Fair enough, but he was fine with letting him go if Upa said so. He didn't feel the overwhelming need to kill him like he did Piccolo or Tambourine. He's not different from when he's a kid. He's willing to let people go if it's not in the heat of the moment and he's in full control, Tambourine being the one exception.

he just develops a conscience as an adult and seems more capable of mercy and compassion than he did as a kid.

Off screen?

[Michsi]

he just develops a conscience as an adult and seems more capable of mercy and compassion than he did as a kid.

Off screen?

Pretty much. I suppose it has a lot to do with the writing focusing less and less on silliness, because I also think Goku's crudeness was a product of Toriyama's gag-manga driven style, but yeah, Goku becomes more mindful of these things later. He does not forgive or show Tao Pai Pai mercy, he just seems confused. But Tao Pai Pai's death is something he celebrates and is happy about, whereas as an adult, he goes to great lengths sometimes to avoid killing , and not just because he wants to fight them later.

[ABED]

I think the better explanation is that Goku is range of the moment and what feels right. He'll kill a lackey if poses a threat to someone or if he refuses to stop attacking Goku. He tries to let strong opponents go. I don't think there's a change in Goku and certainly not one due to his training with Kami as some have inferred. I think it's mostly due to the opponents he faced than a change in Goku that wasn't dramatized. How many asked for mercy, even if it was BS? There's little reason to think that Goku wouldn't have let Tao Pai Pai get away if he hadn't tried to kill Goku with the grenade.

What great lengths did he go to stop from killing someone? Freeza? He had Freeza on the ropes. Characters like the Ginyu Force weren't much of a threat, and there's little reason to kill a frog. i chalk Goku's feelings about killing Freeza not to mercy, but of killing a strong opponent.

[Onibaku]

Emperor Pilaf Saga, Raditz Saga and Cell Saga

[Doctor.]

I think the better explanation is that Goku is range of the moment and what feels right. He'll kill a lackey if poses a threat to someone or if he refuses to stop attacking Goku. He tries to let strong opponents go. I don't think there's a change in Goku and certainly not one due to his training with Kami as some have inferred. I think it's mostly due to the opponents he faced than a change in Goku that wasn't dramatized. How many asked for mercy, even if it was BS? There's little reason to think that Goku wouldn't have let Tao Pai Pai get away if he hadn't tried to kill Goku with the grenade.

What great lengths did he go to stop from killing someone? Freeza? He had Freeza on the ropes. Characters like the Ginyu Force weren't much of a threat, and there's little reason to kill a frog. i chalk Goku's feelings about killing Freeza not to mercy, but of killing a strong opponent.

He specifically told Freeza he never wanted to see him again, so it's not like he doesn't want to kill him because he just wants to fight him in the future like Vegeta or Piccolo.

[ABED]

Didn't he also tell him to work on his skills?

[Android 21]

The non-DBS version of him. Aka, when he wasn’t a mentally-impaired prick.

[Bansho64]

As of now, my favorite characterization of him would probably have to be the Saiyan arc. That may change though, as I plan to rewatch the original DB for the first time in years.

[KBABZ]

Didn't he also tell him to work on his skills?

And as well he said that he was satisfied that Frieza's pride was shattered by so utterly losing the fight (and that was before he gets cut in half!).

[ABED]

Didn't he also tell him to work on his skills?

And as well he said that he was satisfied that Frieza's pride was shattered by so utterly losing the fight (and that was before he gets cut in half!).

Point being that he had several reasons, not just one, for letting him go.

[Michsi]

Didn't he also tell him to work on his skills?

That was before. When Freeza cuts himself in half with his own technique, Goku comments on how pathetic he is and that he should die with Namek. When Freeza begs for his life Goku is initially angry that a killer like him would have the audacity to ask for help, but ends up giving him his ki so that he might move and survive. There's no hint of wanting a rematch here, especially since it seems like Freeza is permanently damaged. Goku is just telling him save himself with the ki he gave him. If that isn't just plain mercy, I don't know what is.

[ABED]

Didn't he also tell him to work on his skills?

That was before. When Freeza cuts himself in half with his own technique, Goku comments on how pathetic he is and that he should die with Namek. When Freeza begs for his life Goku is initially angry that a killer like him would have the audacity to ask for help, but ends up giving him his ki so that he might move and survive. There's no hint of wanting a rematch here, especially since it seems like Freeza is permanently damaged. Goku is just telling him save himself with the ki he gave him. If that isn't just plain mercy, I don't know what is.

Goku still isn't more merciful as an adult, or at least you can't draw that conclusion from the evidence given. Sure, he was willing to let Freeza go for a few reasons, including mercy, but how many of Goku's enemies actually asked him for it? Without fail, the enemies that ask for it renege as soon as they get it. Goku tries to let Black go, but Black attacks him.

[Michsi]

Didn't he also tell him to work on his skills?

That was before. When Freeza cuts himself in half with his own technique, Goku comments on how pathetic he is and that he should die with Namek. When Freeza begs for his life Goku is initially angry that a killer like him would have the audacity to ask for help, but ends up giving him his ki so that he might move and survive. There's no hint of wanting a rematch here, especially since it seems like Freeza is permanently damaged. Goku is just telling him save himself with the ki he gave him. If that isn't just plain mercy, I don't know what is.

Goku still isn't more merciful as an adult, or at least you can't draw that conclusion from the evidence given. Sure, he was willing to let Freeza go for a few reasons, including mercy, but how many of Goku's enemies actually asked him for it? Without fail, the enemies that ask for it renege as soon as they get it. Goku tries to let Black go, but Black attacks him.

I can and I do. Also-


General Black? Really???? He outright kills him! The guy was running away, he was retreating, Goku sees that, says that he can't let bad guys like him escape, and lunges after him. When he explodes, like with Tao Pai Pai, Goku looks on with glee. Black was no where near as bad as Freeza, yet he shows Freeza mercy, and looks remorseful after he thinks he killed him.

I'm going to have to ask if you're looking at the anime when citing things, because all of your examples seem better evidence for my take if we're going by the manga.

[ABED]

I can and I do. Also-

General Black? Really???? He outright kills him! The guy was running away, he was retreating, Goku sees that, says that he can't let bad guys like him escape, and lunges after him. When he explodes, like with Tao Pai Pai, Goku looks on with glee. Black was no where near as bad as Freeza, yet he shows Freeza mercy, and looks remorseful after he thinks he killed him.

I'm going to have to ask if you're looking at the anime when citing things, because all of your examples seem better evidence for my take if we're going by the manga.

Then it's a conclusion based on incomplete evidence. So either you're wrong and Goku isn't more merciful, it's just a change in circumstance OR you are right and Toriyama didn't dramatize Goku's change which is terrible writing.

Yes, really!!!!! Black doesn't immediately try to escape. He says they should team up and after futilely attacking Goku, Goku tells him to give up and go to the police. He doesn't want to kill him if he doesn't have to. Goku killed him AFTER Black attacked him in his battle suit.

And why does it matter if I used the anime? For the record, I looked up the scene in the manga and it's as I wrote.

[Michsi]

And why does it matter if I used the anime? For the record, I looked up the scene in the manga and it's as I wrote.

Because that is one of the clearest, most point blank pieces evidence of what I'm saying, and I thought the anime might have changed that a bit. Goku has no interest in fighting Black, he just wanted to get the Dragon Balls for Upa's father. Never said that Goku was a sociopath that killed whoever angered him, but he spared their lives 0 thought when it came to finishing them off. I repeat, he pursues someone that didn't want to fight anymore and causes their death. He is then happy he managed it.
And then there is the Tambourine/Nappa comparison too. Disregard all of it if you want, but I think I have enough support from the story to keep believing that there is a change in Goku, whether that was the author's intention or not.