Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

Michsi
I Live Here
Posts: 4557
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:10 pm

Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Michsi » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:17 pm

ABED wrote:And what about Gohan's demeanor in that moment says he's upset?
Gohan's very evident, clear, in our face inability to get angry.
Here's another reason to think it's crap. EVERYONE who takes Piccolo's statement at face value ALWAYS miss that Goku tells Gohan right before the fight that if he wants to be a scholar, he first has to defeat Cell. So much for the BS theory that he doesn't understand his son.
Since when was Gohan wanting to become a scholar some great secret that one needs to know him intimately to find out. That's the least thing he could've known about Gohan. And the fact that he mentions this makes it kinda worse, since it shows he is aware somewhat that Gohan doesn't live for fighting the way he does nor does he love anywhere as much as he does. That he should've known that Gohan wouldn't be happy about his father providing him with a 'fair fight'
which gave Cell back the power he lost
Which wasn't much. It's reckless, but it wasn't luck that he was right. Gohan wasn't injured at all even before he transformed. [/quote]

No, but a life was lost. And a lot more could've followed. However much Cell lost is a power level debate I don't care to get into, but that's irrelevant eitherway. As they say, it's the thought that counts.
It doesn't paint him in a great light but seeing as how this isn't a thread about how moral Goku is, why does it matter?
No, its about favorite iteration of Goku, which leads to some thinking about their least favorite, which Cell Saga provides. This moment in particular is pretty important as far as Goku's character is concerned.

User avatar
Gligarman
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 402
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:04 pm

Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Gligarman » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:20 pm

Kid Goku. Pretty much the same character as the adult version but more adorable.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:30 pm

No, its about favorite iteration of Goku, which leads to some thinking about their least favorite, which Cell Saga provides. This moment in particular is pretty important as far as Goku's character is concerned.
But they take a moralistic stance when it's not that kind of show. It's not about superheroes, so why does it matter if you don't agree with the morality of what Goku's doing? I don't agree that Goku should've let Vegeta go, but I found it interesting.

Nothing about the senzu changes a damn thing about the outcome, not one bit.

The only thing that matters is if it's interesting. Why is the ethics of all this relevant to someone's judgment of Son Goku? It's not that kind of story and as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter. Goku could be a piece of garbage, as long as he's interesting, that's what matters.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Appers
Newbie
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:57 pm

Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Appers » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:21 am

Namek saga Goku for sure. It's my favorite iteration of him because he's fully come to terms with the fact that he's a Saiyan and begins to take pride in it, rather than denying it.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by sintzu » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:48 am

I like Z Goku the most, especially Buu arc Goku. He was still the fun likable character we grew up with but you can tell he was grown up and had learned from all his previous experiences.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

Michsi
I Live Here
Posts: 4557
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:10 pm

Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Michsi » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:02 am

ABED wrote:
No, its about favorite iteration of Goku, which leads to some thinking about their least favorite, which Cell Saga provides. This moment in particular is pretty important as far as Goku's character is concerned.
But they take a moralistic stance when it's not that kind of show. It's not about superheroes, so why does it matter if you don't agree with the morality of what Goku's doing? I don't agree that Goku should've let Vegeta go, but I found it interesting.

Nothing about the senzu changes a damn thing about the outcome, not one bit.

The only thing that matters is if it's interesting. Why is the ethics of all this relevant to someone's judgment of Son Goku? It's not that kind of story and as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter. Goku could be a piece of garbage, as long as he's interesting, that's what matters.
That we've established they are not superheroes means in no way the characters are now exempt from basic decency or that we cannot judge them based on what they do and how they act. The story also doesn't ask us to overlook such moral transgressions either, it just doesn't dwell long on them. The 'no superhero' argument basically just means we shouldn't expect any great concern for social responsibility from them, but they are still very much supposed to be the 'good guys'. And this isn't even about Goku having or not having something like a sense of righteousness or whatever, it's about his actions regarding his own son and his friends.

The senzu does change things, the story tells and shows us that it does, but even if you don' believe that it's the cause behind Gohan's problem, in the end that doesn't matter. If I throw someone off a cliff for shits and giggles, knowing for sure that they're going to be fine won't change the fact that it was a horrible thing to do to them and that I'm a jerk. A favorable outcome does not pardon a dick move.
You judge a character based on their demeanor and behavior, not just the aftereffects of their decisions.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:34 am

That we've established they are not superheroes means in no way the characters are now exempt from basic decency or that we cannot judge them based on what they do and how they act.
But that has zero bearing on how interesting they are. We want excitement and conflict in our art and boredom in our life. This isn't a thread about ethics so I don't see how ethical Goku is is an important criterion in judging how interesting he is. We love antiheroes and outright villains. Judge Goku's ethics all you want, but why does that matter regarding this thread's question?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

Michsi
I Live Here
Posts: 4557
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:10 pm

Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Michsi » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:10 am

ABED wrote:
That we've established they are not superheroes means in no way the characters are now exempt from basic decency or that we cannot judge them based on what they do and how they act.
But that has zero bearing on how interesting they are. We want excitement and conflict in our art and boredom in our life. This isn't a thread about ethics so I don't see how ethical Goku is is an important criterion in judging how interesting he is. We love antiheroes and outright villains. Judge Goku's ethics all you want, but why does that matter regarding this thread's question?
You can't decide for others what they like and what they don't. Goku's senzu bit during the Cell games is almost universally deemed as a bad moment, and some don't care if it makes him more interesting or layered as a character - an act of blatant selfishness or recklessness is simply frustrating. More than interesting, people care about a character being likeable, and there was little to like about what Goku was doing then. I'm all for flawed characters, in fact I greatly prefer them over the cookie-cutter hero type, but that in no way changes how their actions are perceived. I personally love Goku going through that 'oh, shit ' moment and regret his earlier actions, but I can definitely see why someone would be unhappy with him than pleased.

I get that "they're not superheroes" was a big revelation for the fandom, but that doesn't mean everything wrong these characters do should be swept under the rug. It doesn't call for excessive moral scrutiny, but a little bit of it does apply in certain cases.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:20 am

don't care if it makes him more interesting or layered as a character
I don't think that's true in art. This is art we're talking about, not real life. Yes, in real life you want people to be likable, but in art, a person can be the most morally upstanding individual, but that doesn't make them interesting to watch.
I get that "they're not superheroes" was a big revelation for the fandom, but that doesn't mean everything wrong these characters do should be swept under the rug. It doesn't call for excessive moral scrutiny, but a little bit of it does apply in certain cases.
But that's not the topic. My favorite version of Vegeta is in the Saiyan and Freeza arcs, when he's at his most villainous. The question is for those that do put an emphasis on a character's morality, why is that criterion important in judging their favorite version of said character?
Last edited by ABED on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Doctor. » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:26 am

Lord Beerus wrote:Freeza arc Goku annoys me
Why? What did he do that annoyed you? Everything he did in the Namek arc was perfectly fine and normal behavior.

Michsi
I Live Here
Posts: 4557
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:10 pm

Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Michsi » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:55 am

ABED wrote:
don't care if it makes him more interesting or layered as a character
I don't think that's true in art. This is art we're talking about, not real life. Yes, in real life you want people to be likable, but in art, a person can be the most morally upstanding individual, but that doesn't make them interesting to watch.
?
Let's not get into that. First of all, there is no concrete or universally agreed upon definition of art, regardless of what the dictionary might say. Also it's not like anything in DB calls for any deep introspection. Shitty behavior isn't celebrated in most cases. That's all there is to it.

Also, I honestly cannot fathom how a character's morality could be viewed irrelevant, especially when it comes to this topic. Where a character falls on the moral spectrum is fundamental.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:42 am

Let's not get into that. First of all, there is no concrete or universally agreed upon definition of art, regardless of what the dictionary might say. Also it's not like anything in DB calls for any deep introspection. Shitty behavior isn't celebrated in most cases. That's all there is to it.
This isn't about celebrating anything. We aren't celebrating Goku or Vegeta's crappy behavior. It's what do we find interesting. So the question is for those that put a big emphasis on morality, why do you think that makes him more interesting?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 21389
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:32 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Freeza arc Goku annoys me
Why? What did he do that annoyed you? Everything he did in the Namek arc was perfectly fine and normal behavior.
I've talked about why I'm not a fan of Goku during the Freeza arc in this thread. But I'l highlight the portion which states my opinion the best:
[spoiler]Some of the characteristics that Goku displays in this arc also appear inconsistently. A prime example being how Goku goes from wanting to prevent Freeza to reaching his maximum power to allowing Freeza to power-up so he could beat him at his best in the space of one episode/one chapter. And despite Goku’s hunger for battle, he tries to walk away from his fight with Freeza… twice. What happened with regards to that big speech about him swearing he’ll defeat Freeza? Did it never happen? It’s like if in the Saiyan arc after Goku realising that the gap in power between himself and Nappa was large enough to make Nappa a non-threat to him and that Nappa is fighting a losing battle, he decides instead out breaking out Kaioken to finish the fight, he just stopping fighting him and the focuses his attention on Vegeta instead. I just found it incredibly out of character for Goku to act like that. Then his attitude flip-flops again from trying to get Freeza killed from his own attack to trying to prevent Freeza from getting cut from his own attack.

I also found it strange that Goku suddenly becomes this weird beacon of morality the moment he touches down on Namek. I mean, it kinda works in a thematic sense, but how it's used in the Freeza fight is very haphazard. It is rather odd that he suddenly becomes so unwilling to kill, and it’s even more unusual considering he's doesn’t really act like that afterwards. Goku’s characterisation in this arc is just all over the place and only seems to fit the needs of the plot.

I’d also say that Goku is less of a character and more of a plot device in this arc. Goku’s only role in the arc to be side-lined before conveniently before inserting himself back into the plot and saving the day. Now this has happened before, in both the King Piccolo arc and Saiyan arc. But there is significant difference how it played in those arcs and in the Freeza arc. In those arcs, the narrative still majorly focuses on Goku’s journey in a meaningful fashion and the plot threads of those arcs originate from Goku. There’s no unique spin on this in the Freeza arc.[/spoiler]

Michsi
I Live Here
Posts: 4557
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:10 pm

Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Michsi » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:53 pm

ABED wrote:
Let's not get into that. First of all, there is no concrete or universally agreed upon definition of art, regardless of what the dictionary might say. Also it's not like anything in DB calls for any deep introspection. Shitty behavior isn't celebrated in most cases. That's all there is to it.
This isn't about celebrating anything. We aren't celebrating Goku or Vegeta's crappy behavior. It's what do we find interesting. So the question is for those that put a big emphasis on morality, why do you think that makes him more interesting?
I can find Cersei from GOT to be a fascinating character, but still think she is an horrible, awful person. As such I would in no way be surprised if anyone couldn't stand her.
Again, Goku giving Cell a senzu was a bad move, from both an in- and out-of-universe perspective. It's very easy to see why someone would not like him in the Cell saga.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:12 pm

As such I would in no way be surprised if anyone couldn't stand her.
But the real question is "why?" Why is a character's ethics an important criterion in judging how interesting that character is? It doesn't surprise me that there are people out there that can't stand characters who do immoral things. I've seen plenty of viewers hate characters because they are an impediment to their favorite characters getting what they want. But that's the whole point of a story - to put obstacles in the way of characters reaching their goals, so it doesn't make sense to me that ethics is the primary criterion of judging how interesting a character is.

My issue with a character like Vegeta isn't that he's a dick, it's that being a dick doesn't get him what he wants and he doesn't learn from the same experience for a long time. Vegeta is constantly egging opponents on and it bites him in the ass damn near every single time. Say what you will about Goku doing some morally questionable things, but he gets what he wants. Goku is arguably pretty cocky in the 23rd TB, but he wins. He might let Vegeta go for reasons we deem unacceptable, but does become stronger than Vegeta. And while Goku might let Dr. Gero complete the cyborgs, he eventually gets an interesting fight against Cell. While he doesn't win, Gohan does. He wasn't lucky on that issue, either. He knew the depth of Gohan's power.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 21389
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:05 pm

Michsi wrote:
ABED wrote:
Let's not get into that. First of all, there is no concrete or universally agreed upon definition of art, regardless of what the dictionary might say. Also it's not like anything in DB calls for any deep introspection. Shitty behavior isn't celebrated in most cases. That's all there is to it.
This isn't about celebrating anything. We aren't celebrating Goku or Vegeta's crappy behavior. It's what do we find interesting. So the question is for those that put a big emphasis on morality, why do you think that makes him more interesting?
I can find Cersei from GOT to be a fascinating character, but still think she is an horrible, awful person. As such I would in no way be surprised if anyone couldn't stand her.
Again, Goku giving Cell a senzu was a bad move, from both an in- and out-of-universe perspective. It's very easy to see why someone would not like him in the Cell saga.
I have to side with Michsi on this one. Goku giving Cell senzu was not only incredibly foolish, but it was very unnecessary from a narrative perspective because it didn't lead to anything. I mean, if the purpose of that moment was make Goku an unlikable, selfish asshole... then mission accomplished.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:09 pm

It wasn't meant as a set up. It's just there to convey how much confidence Goku has in Gohan's abilities who we as the audience haven't seen.

Again, this isn't about about how good Goku is, it's about what point in the story you find him the most interesting. Nothing about that question implies he can't be an asshole.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 21389
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:03 pm

ABED wrote:It wasn't meant as a set up. It's just there to convey how much confidence Goku has in Gohan's abilities who we as the audience haven't seen.
There are many other ways you could have had the setup that Goku is incredibly confident in Gohan abilities without him looking like a reckless blood knight. Goku having great confidence in someone and making pointlessly dangerous decisions don't have to go hand in hand. And it gets even worse in the Majin Boo arc...

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:08 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
ABED wrote:It wasn't meant as a set up. It's just there to convey how much confidence Goku has in Gohan's abilities who we as the audience haven't seen.
There are many other ways you could have had the setup that Goku is incredibly confident in Gohan abilities without him looking like a reckless blood knight. Goku having great confidence in someone and making pointlessly dangerous decisions don't have to go hand in hand
It's not a setup, it's just an action that demonstrates his confidence. Whether you like it or not, it's in character. The problem with the Buu arc is that it's not in character.

Goku's decision does have a point - to show his confidence. We as the audience aren't supposed to agree with him. We're supposed to be with characters like Kuririn and Piccolo who are flabergasted. It's extreme but it shows Goku's confidence, albeit in an extreme way. You not liking the ethics of it doesn't make it pointless.

Goku doesn't have to let Piccolo or Vegeta go. It's dangerous, but it tells you about his character and it's interesting. This deep into the story and this arc alone and this about his character bothers you? Even with advanced warning, he lets Dr. Gero create the cyborgs all for the sake of a battle.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 21389
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: Favorite Iteration of Son Goku

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:48 pm

ABED wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
ABED wrote:It wasn't meant as a set up. It's just there to convey how much confidence Goku has in Gohan's abilities who we as the audience haven't seen.
There are many other ways you could have had the setup that Goku is incredibly confident in Gohan abilities without him looking like a reckless blood knight. Goku having great confidence in someone and making pointlessly dangerous decisions don't have to go hand in hand
It's not a setup, it's just an action that demonstrates his confidence. Whether you like it or not, it's in character. The problem with the Buu arc is that it's not in character.

Goku's decision does have a point - to show his confidence. We as the audience aren't supposed to agree with him. We're supposed to be with characters like Kuririn and Piccolo who are flabergasted. It's extreme but it shows Goku's confidence, albeit in an extreme way. You not liking the ethics of it doesn't make it pointless.

Goku doesn't have to let Piccolo or Vegeta go. It's dangerous, but it tells you about his character and it's interesting. This deep into the story and this arc alone and this about his character bothers you? Even with advanced warning, he lets Dr. Gero create the cyborgs all for the sake of a battle.
I don't think we'll see eye on Goku's senzu moment with Cell because, to me at least, it's so jarring Goku's character, even in he's the sort of person who loves a good fight and is confident in someone, that he would go to that extreme length to express his beliefs. And to this day, he still hasn't done anything that over the top.

That being said...
The problem with the Buu arc is that it's not in character.
I'm glad we're on the same page about Goku's character being off in the Majin Boo arc. :wink:

Post Reply