Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

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Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:01 am

It's clear the writers from Toei can't write a decent plot to save their life and Toyotaro plays things way too safe. Even Toriyama isn't half the writer he used to be... with Dragon Ball. I know a lot of people feel me on this so it's only fair for someone from Shueisha to make some one-offs and/or spin-offs (like that Yamcha manga) specifically for those who grew up on Dragon Ball and want to see it from a different perspective like the author duo of Kinnikuman, Yudetamago.

One story I like to see is based on Grandpa Gohan and Gyumao' s days training under the Turtle School...maybe even the Turtle School history in general. Gohan is the star pupil who chose the right path and adopted a weird boy while the much younger Gyumao lived much of his years after his teachings living in sins. He was stealing from the rich and killed anyone who tried to stop his wealth. He struggles dealing with his dark past, being a widower, and being a single father to a little girl.

Another one is the story detailing Vegeta's rough childhood working under the Planet Trade Organization like I've suggested several times before. We can get more insight to his relationships with Raditz, Nappa, Cui, and his father King Vegeta.

What do you think about this?
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

Post by dragondyle » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:12 am

Ehh, I really don’t know. It would be really cool to get darker stories but I personally don’t think Dragon Ball should go “darker.” The darkest it’s ever gone is with anything related to Future Trunks and Bardock and we’re done with those stories. I think if Dragon Ball would ever get to a more serious tone is this years film exploring the Saiyans origins. That’s definitely not going to be a happy-go-lucky story. I think it’s cool to have a dark story every now and then but in general, and this is totally my opinion, dark stories just isn’t synonymous with Dragon Ball. FUNimation tried to give GT a darker tone and look how that turned out. :lol:
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Re: Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

Post by Doctor. » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:20 am

Dragon Ball is already pretty genre-bending as it is, so I don't think darker or more serious stories would be too out of DB's realm. The two TV specials were already pretty compelling, 'darker', stories as it is.

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Re: Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

Post by Michsi » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:28 am

A little, maybe? It wouldn't hurt. It doesn't have be any darker than Naruto or Bleach ever got, but I wouldn't mind them having a go at a tone shift.

Who knows, maybe Netflix will handle the next DB series :lol:

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Re: Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:44 am

Are you equating darker and character driven? Is DB not already character driven? I'm fine with dark stories, but DB is generally lighter, so I think it's best to do the roller coaster and have some arcs be lighter and some darker. Contrast works really well.
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Re: Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:53 am

I've love more character driven stories. But that doesnt necessarily darker, at least to me.

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Re: Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

Post by sintzu » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:11 pm

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
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Re: Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:21 pm

sintzu wrote:[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
That wasn't character-driven, it was plot convenience-driven. :P
And while I will admit it was somewhat dark(Though, not really a whole ton), most of that darkness came from edginess of certain aspects of it. :P

Dragon Ball can do dark very well; the Piccolo arc was dark, the Freeza arc had dark bits, the Androids/Cell arc got very dark in some places, even the Boo arc had some dark parts(Human extinction attack, anyone?). It just has to be done right.
And yeah, Dragon Ball's been character driven many times; the first arc was almost entirely character driven, the tournaments always are, the Namek arc was completely character-driven...

Though honestly, while it's fine to go dark, Dragon Ball really shouldn't be edgy. It really doesn't work...
DBZAOTA482 wrote:One story I like to see is based on Grandpa Gohan and Gyumao' s days training under the Turtle School...maybe even the Turtle School history in general. Gohan is the star pupil who chose the right path and adopted a weird boy while the much younger Gyumao lived much of his years after his teachings living in sins. He was stealing from the rich and killed anyone who tried to stop his wealth. He struggles dealing with his dark past, being a widower, and being a single father to a little girl.

Another one is the story detailing Vegeta's rough childhood working under the Planet Trade Organization like I've suggested several times before. We can get more insight to his relationships with Raditz, Nappa, Cui, and his father King Vegeta.
This just sounds too edgy. And in Gyumao's case, very out of character. To be honest, I don't really see either of these ideas being particularly interesting; perhaps that's just because all you've laid out here is a setting, not a story, but I don't know how you'd fit a Dragon Ball story into such an edgy scenario.
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Re: Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

Post by Jackalope89 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:22 pm

sintzu wrote:[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
I was about to point that out myself.

[spoiler]Hard to get much darker when Universal Zamasu obliterates the survivors on screen, including a couple of little kids. And then to have the entirety of the multiverse erased shortly after? Yeah, that's pretty dark, especially by Dragon Ball standards.[/spoiler]

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Re: Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:33 pm

Earnest question - how do you define character driven? It would seem to be self evident, but perhaps you might be taking people's understanding of the term for granted.
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Re: Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:42 pm

There's no such thing as a character-driven story, they're all plot driven. Good stories just make the sequence of events feel like it comes from the people inside the story instead of it (obviously) being at the whims of the plot.
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Re: Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:02 pm

Dragon Ball has dipped its toe into more grim aspects of storytelling, and the results are usually good, so I wouldn't mind them revisiting that pool again.

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Re: Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

Post by GamerSkull » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:25 pm

I think I would like to see more character-driven stories in Dragon Ball that might be seperate from Goku... but they don't necessarily need to be darker.
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Re: Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:34 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:There's no such thing as a character-driven story, they're all plot driven. Good stories just make the sequence of events feel like it comes from the people inside the story instead of it (obviously) being at the whims of the plot.
But plot isn't something separate from the characters. Stories are what characters do and say.
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Re: Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:51 pm

ABED wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:There's no such thing as a character-driven story, they're all plot driven. Good stories just make the sequence of events feel like it comes from the people inside the story instead of it (obviously) being at the whims of the plot.
But plot isn't something separate from the characters. Stories are what characters do and say.
Yes but they're still beholden to the story, a character does what the story demands of him, it's up to the storyteller to make that fact seem less obvious by setting up certain traits in a character then having events spin-off with those traits taken into consideration.
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Re: Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:54 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
ABED wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:There's no such thing as a character-driven story, they're all plot driven. Good stories just make the sequence of events feel like it comes from the people inside the story instead of it (obviously) being at the whims of the plot.
But plot isn't something separate from the characters. Stories are what characters do and say.
Yes but they're still beholden to the story, a character does what the story demands of him, it's up to the storyteller to make that fact seem less obvious by setting up certain traits in a character then having events spin-off with those traits taken into consideration.
But it's the characters actions that dictates the story. Character and story can be analyzed as separate concepts, but they aren't hermetically sealed. They are inexorably entwined. If your character is moving purely at the whims of the story, then you don't have a fully realized or active character.

The best conception I've read about the difference between character driven and plot driven stories is character driven stories focus primarily on the internal aspects of the story, whereas plot driven is more concerned with the external. For instance, Sherlock Holmes stories are plot driven as it's about solving the mystery and the twists and turns in the story, and less about Sherlock's emotions or a character arc.
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Re: Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:21 pm

ABED wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
ABED wrote: But plot isn't something separate from the characters. Stories are what characters do and say.
Yes but they're still beholden to the story, a character does what the story demands of him, it's up to the storyteller to make that fact seem less obvious by setting up certain traits in a character then having events spin-off with those traits taken into consideration.
But it's the characters actions that dictates the story. Character and story can be analyzed as separate concepts, but they aren't hermetically sealed. They are inexorably entwined. If your character is moving purely at the whims of the story, then you don't have a fully realized or active character.

The best conception I've read about the difference between character driven and plot driven stories is character driven stories focus primarily on the internal aspects of the story, whereas plot driven is more concerned with the external. For instance, Sherlock Holmes stories are plot-driven as it's about solving the mystery and the twists and turns in the story, and less about Sherlock's emotions or a character arc.
Characters only taken actions based on the storyteller's intentions. As you said, some stories take a more personal approach by really focusing in on the people while others focus on the bigger picture but they're all beholden to the storyteller's intentions.

The only difference to me is that a "character-driven" story just covers up this fact really, really well. Ned Stark doesn't stick to his honor bound ways even as events slip through his fingers because he's Ned Stark, it's because the plot needs him to go that place so he gets the literal axe at the end. The only thing Martin does is that he makes the plot-driven necessity consistent and seem like it comes from the character, and not himself but make no mistake, he's always steering the wheel.
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Re: Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

Post by ABED » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:06 pm

Characters only taken actions based on the storyteller's intentions. As you said, some stories take a more personal approach by really focusing in on the people while others focus on the bigger picture but they're all beholden to the storyteller's intentions.

The only difference to me is that a "character-driven" story just covers up this fact really, really well. Ned Stark doesn't stick to his honor bound ways even as events slip through his fingers because he's Ned Stark, it's because the plot needs him to go that place so he gets the literal axe at the end. The only thing Martin does is that he makes the plot-driven necessity consistent and seem like it comes from the character, and not himself but make no mistake, he's always steering the wheel.
Of course the characters don't literally steer the ship. They aren't real, but nothing is being covered up. That's not what it means to say plot comes out of character.

If the writer can't get the characters go where he needs them to based on what he wants the story to be, he's not telling a good story. The story has to be organic.
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Re: Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

Post by Gligarman » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:11 pm

Nah, it's a comedy. I've always felt that Dragon Ball can only go so dark before it loses its identity.

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Re: Do you think Dragon Ball should tackle darker, more character-driven stories?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:25 pm

Darker as in, seriousness and tension lead arcs? Yes. Because I might be the only one to think this but DB has always been dark but it had a comedy coating. More so in Z, and the movies in general have its dark elements especially the later ones. All the arcs had villains that were dark and subtle which is what gave us that. Super lacks this because it is terrible with build up. Right now DB doesn't feel like it has any focus or direction story to it, hence why characters either go no where or retread the same aspects of them over and over from the Buu Saga. Right now its just the characters fighting for the sake of it and the hype around it is supposed to be that according to Toei. If anything Toei is who's playing it too safe. Toyotaro at least gives us the gore the original manga had, not as much but decapitation is there. I want characters to at least have darker backstories like the movies and the villains to actually be scary again, like Z. Doesn't mean the series needs to be grim. Just needs substance.
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