Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

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Robo4900
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Re: Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:38 am

KBABZ wrote:
sintzu wrote:DB's episodes without the filler is 133 which I don't think is a lot. The problem isn't really the shows themselves but rather trying to get someone who isn't into those long 500+ shows to get into the entire franchise which is why I'd recommend Kai from the start as it's not crazy long, it's the most popular of the bunch and to me at least, the best part of the franchise. By doing that you're not asking them to invest in everything so if they decide not to continue they'll still get a somewhat complete experience out of it.
And for as much as I urge anybody first getting in to start with OG DB, at least Kai starts off with a recap of that story so you have an idea that some important stuff happened before Raditz showed up, unlike Z when it debuted in the US (Krillin, Bulma and Roshi reminiscing helps a lot too).
Skipping Dragon Ball is a really bad idea no matter what.

Kai has the recap, but arguably that's worse, since Z kind of catches you up just as much as that recap would based on character interactions and other things, while Kai will spoil most of the story for when you eventually go back and watch DB.
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Re: Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

Post by sintzu » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:50 am

Robo4900 wrote:Skipping Dragon Ball is a really bad idea no matter what.
I'd recommend DB if someone was going to get into the entire franchise or at the very least the original story but if someone just wants one part and the one that represents DB the most I'd go with Kai.
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Re: Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:53 am

sintzu wrote:I'd recommend DB if someone was going to get into the entire franchise or at the very least the original story but if someone just wants one part and the one that represents DB the most I'd go with Kai.
I disagree, quite strongly in fact. I've always thought Dragon Ball began to reach its peak around the first tournament and Red Ribbon arcs, and began to falter during the Freeza arc. Skipping most of the show's best stuff is just a bad decision.
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Re: Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

Post by sintzu » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:00 am

Robo4900 wrote:Skipping most of the show's best stuff is just a bad decision.
It's not about quality but rather what represents the franchise. Z(Kai) is the image that the companies use to market the franchise and the one most recognize it with so someone new who just wants one part will most likely want the one that he/she is familiar with thanks to marketing, word of mouth, etc.

I think a lot of issues with the franchise and the original DB being overlooked would've been greatly improved had Kai started with it instead of Z.
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Re: Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

Post by Valerius Dover » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:24 am

My preferred viewing order is based on approximate release / chronological order and where the best stopping points are. I placed the movies after the main arcs of the series since these arcs don't really have any good stopping points within them. It'd be awkward to go and see a movie in the middle of an arc, so for me it kind of worked better to marathon them afterwords. Dead Zone has to go before the Garlic Jr. arc, as well. I placed the two Z movies last since seeing them before GT would make the latter seem like a technical downgrade. I don't recommend Kai to newcomers, since it skips over the original DB, and no matter which version you watch, going from the original DB to Kai to GT is going to be really inconsistent in presentation. Furthermore, the inconsistent edits in the series would make it confusing to newer viewers. I would instead recommend it if one is still interested after seeing the original, and going into Super after that, which keeps the feel consistent. In the same that I'd urge one to play the original version of a game before its remake. This order works for both the Japanese original and the Funimation dub on the bricks and Blu-Rays.

[spoiler]Dragon Ball
-All 153 Episodes
-Movies 1-3

Dragon Ball Z
-Episodes 1-107
-Special 1 and Movies 1-5
-Episodes 108-194
-Special 2 and Movies 6-9
-Episodes 195-291
-Movies 10-13

Dragon Ball GT
-DB Movie 4
-All 64 Episodes
-GT Special

-Dragon Ball Z Movies 14-15

New Broadcast
-All 167 Dragon Ball Z Kai Episodes (Optional, I suppose)
-All 131 Dragon Ball Super Episodes
-Upcoming Movie, Possibly?[/spoiler]
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Re: Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:59 am

sintzu wrote:
Shaddy wrote:I'd say the best way of experiencing the series' story is the shortest way possible, even if it's not official. Iamthemilkman's Dragon Ball Recut, DB Kai, then BoG, RoF, and starting at episode 28 of Super would be the way I'd recommend, just because it's the only way to get the animated version of Toriyama's story in less than 150 fucking hours.
DB's episodes without the filler is 133 which I don't think is a lot. The problem isn't really the shows themselves but rather trying to get someone who isn't into those long 500+ shows to get into the entire franchise which is why I'd recommend Kai from the start as it's not crazy long, it's the most popular of the bunch and to me at least, the best part of the franchise. By doing that you're not asking them to invest in everything so if they decide not to continue they'll still get a somewhat complete experience out of it.
You're starting the story 1/3 of the way through and 133 episodes is still long. It's not a complete experience. You miss out on so much of DB's rich history.

Anyway, I would watch the Bardock TV special right before the Freeza fight, and the Trunks TV special either before Trunks arrives or after he leaves.

Inconsistent cuts and all, I think Kai is superior to Z, especially if someone is watching it with the dub.
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Re: Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

Post by Kunzait_83 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:22 am

First of all: every single argument being made here to the effect of skipping original DB cannot help but come across to me as wholly and utterly wrongheaded.

The crux of the argument seems to revolve around playing the series to fall as much in line as possible with general people's "preconceived expectations" for how the series is viewed in pop cultural osmosis. And honestly... WHY is that something that's even DESIRABLE to want to entertain in the first place?

For starters, lets just be real here: the preconceived American mainstream osmosis take on what Dragon Ball is like is both A) unbelievably stupid, irritating, and vapid in the extreme as just a thing unto itself and B) totally wrong and inaccurate to the actual reality of what the series is truly like anyway.

Here's the "pop culture osmosis" image in the U.S. mainstream of what Dragon Ball embodies, summed up inside of one 2 minute clip.

Lets not mince words here: suffering through even the most abbreviated and turd-polished version of that general vibe possible would still be just unbearable water torture for almost ANYONE who isn't a total and utter slave to early/mid 2000s middle school-level nostalgia.

And while yes, I know I'm gonna get a LOT of disagreement here on this point, Kai is the abbreviated & turd-polished version of this. Even with the massively improved English voices (some of which, outside the obvious and welcome recasts, are STILL impressively bad even by this point: no one's getting around those Kaio and Muten Roshi voices, among other choice gems which aren't all THAT especially improved with time), you still have a thoroughly uninspired and droning replacement score (and a sloppily, thoughtlessly placed Kikuchi piping in later on, which only clashes that much more jarringly with the Yamamoto stuff beforehand), you have UNBELIEVABLY bad, careless editing (that edits out just as much important manga material as it does filler, willy nilly), not to mention poorly, chintzily redrawn and reanimated scenes and censorship out the yin yang. And Dragon Soul, which is suicide-inducingly rancid. All of these problems, which are ever-present throughout the Saiya-jin through Cell arcs, are only compounded further by orders of magnitudes with Boo Kai. I'd be totally fine and all on board with a true and proper hypothetical "manga cut" of the anime (provided the music used didn't suck), but Kai is not that and never was.

No matter HOW tedious some of the original Z filler gets (I'm no fan of shit like Maron or Mr. Satan's entourage myself), even the rock bottom worst of it is in NO WAY whatsoever worth having actual fantastic moments and giant stretches of the whole meat of the series totally eviscerated and turned into something much more closely resembling typical 2000s Shonen schlock.

If something like the Garlic Jr arc is really seen as THAT unbearable, just fucking skip past it and be done with it. That's the whole beauty of home video and streaming: you're NOT chained to HAVING to sit through it as if you're following it on TV week to week in its original run. The filler issue with Z is, 8 times out of 10, nothing that isn't solved with a simple click of the DVD remote. Don't wanna subject someone to Fake Namek or Bulma vs Giant Crab? Click "next episode". Voila. Problem solved.

In NO WAY is not having to just skip past a few filler eps here and there worth just totally junking an otherwise cool anime and replace the whole thing with what is basically just Toei's rendition of the Saban/Ocean edited dub from 1996/1997. That is some seriously scorched earth logic that I have never been able to remotely fathom.

And at the end of the day, if that's STILL seen as somehow an unfathomable route to take: then just show people the Damn Mangatm and be done with it.

No matter what twisted pretzel logic you contort yourself into to try and convince yourself otherwise, Raditz landing on Earth is the middle of the fucking story. Zero context, zero setup. Its in NO way meant to be seen as a "beginning point" for ANYTHING other than the next story arc. It flows precisely and fluidly from where things left off in the aftermath of the 23rd Budokai and mostly hits the ground running from there without really stopping to look back. You're plopping someone into the middle of a book starting at chapter 195 out of 519 for absolutely no good goddamn reason, with very minimal opportunity to look back at much needed context and character/story growth.

And asking that new people simply just "dig for context within random, scattered, and otherwise out of context scraps of character interactions" as they go along is just an unbelievably stupid, STUPID, and incredibly sloppy and boneheaded notion, one which does scores of tangible DAMAGE to the story (a story which isn't exactly supposed to be rocket surgery to start with). The reason that people are in ANY way making apologetics for this approach at all is solely because most people here were forced to do the exact same thing as kids when the U.S. brought the series over out of order. And we see how well THAT worked out for the wider fanbase as a whole now don't we?

Even as people acknowledge that running the series out of order did far more harm than good for the series' U.S. image and its fanbase, people STILL defend taking that approach when introducing it to others, almost like some weird kind of stockholm syndrome.

And even if we're just talking a matter of raw length here: then honestly, it hardly even matters which version you go with at the end of the day. Any way you slice it or dice it, you're looking at anywhere from 167 (Kai) to 291 (Z) episodes (320 to 444 if we include original DB, like we should). No matter which road you take, Dragon Ball is inescapably and unavoidably a long, long, LONG-ass series. Absolutely nothing you do to it, be it with Kai or skipping DB or whatever, is gonna really cushion that particular blow very much ultimately in the grand scheme: so if you and a new person are gonna lock yourselves in for the long haul with a monster like this one, you may as well just go all-in with the most consistent and high quality version (not to mention most representative) possible, as opposed to a sloppily thrown together patchwork that does little besides homogenize DB (to whatever extent) with any number of other current Shonen shows out there.

Like I said: the "just show them Kai in English, because it's a mildly less shitty and cringey way of giving someone the mainstream pop cultural osmosis American DBZ experience" argument is innately stupid to me simply because the "mainstream American pop cultural osmosis" rendition of Dragon Ball is just inherently fucking terrible in and of itself as well as unrepresentative of what DB is actually like on just about ANY possible level. Or put it this way: if the mainstream pop cultural osmosis popular image of Dragon Ball is so unrepresentative of what its really like AND so embarrassingly cringe-worthy in itself, why on god's green earth would you WANT to actively ENFORCE that image by starting at Z with whatever long-after-the-fact altered rendition of it? Wouldn't you want to SUBVERT expectations with something that this hypothetical new person is totally not expecting?

Dragon Ball is, like it or not, a Japanese children's martial arts fantasy epic (rooted in Chinese myth) that ran from the mid 80s to the mid 90s, with a boatload of elements that made it genuinely stand out (warts and all). It just is what it is. Anything else after that ranges from after-the-fact attempts to homogenize it in line with either Western children's action cartoons of the late 90s (which are in large part unwatchable and a dime a dozen) or cookie cutter Japanese Shonen action anime of the 2000s (which are also in large part unwatchable and a dime a dozen).

Either way you go, you're purposefully trying to dilute what made the series originally stand out and apart from resembling a billion other things in both American and Japanese children's media throughout the years AFTER DB was a thing in order to place it somewhere within the average person's comfort zone of what they're used to. Which to me seems to be entirely self-defeating, and pointlessly so.

tl;dr - Original DB and DBZ anime (movies and specials included) subtitled, with GT and/or Super as an optional end point, skipping over whatever filler you like; and barring all that just Read the Damn Mangatm. That's the most holistic route for anyone to go, with the other options (Kai and FUNimation in general) being just plain senseless and filled with WAY too much deceptive and tedious tacked-on baggage of their own distinct creation.
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Re: Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

Post by sintzu » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:13 am

ABED wrote:You're starting the story 1/3 of the way through and 133 episodes is still long. It's not a complete experience. You miss out on so much of DB's rich history.
As much as I'd like to defend my points, you're not wrong either as there's so much greatness in DB but...it'd be so much easier to recommend if it got the Kai treatment and same push in marketing as Z does.

The issue I see with DB has nothing to do with quality as I myself always watch it before Kai but rather someone coming in and asking to see what they've been seeing everywhere only to be told they'll have to wait 133 episodes to get there. It also doesn't help that everyone involved act like it doesn't exist.

In terms of a complete experience, I know it isn't which I pointed out in my second post by saying somewhat as Kai works well enough on its own but you still miss how everyone got there. Maybe it's because I grew up with Z and the west has this odd view on DB that I think it'd be hard to get someone in through DB but I guess the only way to know is try so DB is what I'll be telling people to start with and see how it goes.
Last edited by sintzu on Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

Post by Desassina » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:24 am

  • DB Manga
    • DB Anime
      • DB Movies 1, 2 & 3
    • Dragon Ball Z
      • DBZ Movies 1-13 & TV Specials
      • Dragon Ball GT
        • 10th Anniversary Movie & A Hero's Legacy
      • DB Kai
    • Battle of Gods & Resurrection of F
      • DB Super
        • DBS Manga
You read the manga, and let its style soak in before you watch the anime, so that you can feel its differences. Let this approach continue in every other piece of entertainment: DB Kai is now a subset of Dragon Ball Z so that you can see its original self before the adaptation; the 10th anniversary movie (Path to Power) is after GT so that you can get a feel for its decade; Battle of Gods and Resurrection of F are super sets of DB Super so that you can see where it's headed before the plunge. I created the list, but never explained it myself, and hoped for people to be more playful.

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Re: Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

Post by Lunaar » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:00 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:[speaks]
Praise Kami, Kunzait has spoken. I don't think I could have spoken on this subject matter any more thoroughly than you have, man. I was appalled at seeing this topic pop up to begin with, but I'm happy that we seem to have solid contributions thus far. None of you guys have made me livid with your opinions, so that's a nice surprise. :lol:

For the sake of adding some pepper to the conversation, I think it's clear: do not skip Dragon Ball. Unless you have little to no respect for yourself or the person you are introducing it to, don't do it. If you like being confused, don't care about any of the events you're watching and just want to watch people do silly things for 291 episodes, you probably should seek help... or you're a child. Which is... fine, I guess. Z isn't getting any reruns to my knowledge, so the era of spending a half-hour each day watching non-sense is over. If you want to invest, you deserve better.

As for watching it dubbed, well - if you really want to subject yourself to a butchered, shell of a show, go for it. While I will defend the DB portion of the dub for at least getting everything across the pond intact, the transition to Z will be a tonal whiplash unlike anything else you've ever experienced. Also hey, get ready to witness a huge downgrade in voice/soundtrack quality right around the Android arc! I would say the script suffers too, but lets be real - it was never good to begin with. ...imo, my own personal tastes, I'm not attacking your childhood, etc etc...

On the subject of just "showing it off" to someone or just getting a small taste, Dragon Ball is a story largely built upon context of having watched the cast grow up, change and become stronger with every challenge they face. That being said, it is difficult to nail "moments" or "episodes" that can really convey proper weight, but... I have always used DBZ Movie 1 (Dead Zone) as a solid test. Personally, I feel that it nails the charm and mysticism of DB, mixes it up with some exciting fight choreography that the late-DB/early-Z arcs excelled with and even dips it's toes into some of Z's screaming and beefy-guy action. It's got a charming young Gohan, the first movie-gag Krillin, a dastardly Piccolo, some heavenly fluff with Kami, a villain that succeeds in his schemes right off the bat and a freshly Strongest-Under-The-Heavens Goku - Kinto-'un, Nyoi-bo and all! The score is beautiful, the art direction oozes classic DB and the fights represent a good taste what you can expect from Dragon Ball.

Dead Zone! If you want to eat your cake in a puddle, look no further!

I have experience in guiding friends/loved ones through Dragon Ball. My method? Manga is scripture. Manga is law. Manga is the word. When it comes to big moments, it's best to put down the manga for a bit and watch key episodes/specials, just to really get the impact. As an example, I have provided one of the cheat-sheets I wrote up for my girlfriend a little over a year ago as she was reading through:
[spoiler]Chapter numbers correspond with American Viz volumes of Z, not the Tankobon format. Read up to the listed chapter, go on to watch the listed episode(s), then pick up the manga again after viewing the episode(s). "x" represents episode titles to skip for the sake of hiding spoilers. "/" represents a break in viewing chunks.
- - - Chapter 289
Episode 74 x
Episode 75
Episode 76 x
Episode 77 x
Episode 78
- - - Chapter 306
Bardock
Episode 86 x
- - - Chapter 324
Episode 95
Episode 103
Episode 104 x
Episode 105 x
Episode 106 x
Episode 107 x
/
Episode 118 x
Episode 119
Episode 120 x
Episode 121 x
/
Episode 122
Episode 123
Episode 124
Episode 125
Episode 126
/
Episode 127
Episode 128
Episode 129 x
Episode 130
- - - Chapter 348
Episode 133
Episode 134
Episode 135
Episode 136
- - - Chapter 356
Episode 139
Episode 140 x
Episode 141 x
- - - Chapter 381
Episode 160
- - - Chapter 391
Episode 171
Trunks
- - - Chapter 406
Episode 184 x
- - - Chapter 409
Episode 187
Episode 188 x
Episode 189
Episode 190
Episode 191 x
Episode 192
Episode 193
Episode 194
- - - Chapter 420[/spoiler]
With a little homework (aka mining through Kanzenshuu's excellent guides), you can help others enjoy Dragon Ball as it was meant to be digested, then let them decide if they want to experience more (filler, movies, GT/Super, DBZA... anything dub related) on their own. If they're not into it, they're not into it. As Kunzait said, it is not rocket science. FUNimation only complicated everything for the sake of exposure - a move that I do not fully condemn, despite the heavy repercussions.

EDIT:
Lunaar wrote:Praise Kami, Kunzait has spoken. I don't think I could have spoken on this subject matter any more thoroughly than you have, man.
[proceeds to write another wall of text] ...welp
Gogegito wrote:Gotenks said "I cant let him fight just like that, please trunks help me, he's my brother" And trunks also had undesrstanding eyes.
Ajay wrote:It's probably savagely lit. I dunno.
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Re: Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

Post by Desassina » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:13 am

I'm sorry, but... you were appalled? What are you now, another one of those who waits for someone else's mistake for you to rant about? Is it kudos that you're earning or some other currency that I don't know of? This is the epitome of what companies do to earn power for themselves by getting others to point in a direction, dispatch of their influence no matter how little and to assume it for themselves. It's like a baby T-Rex who gets along with velociraptors, because they have vision and communicate or (worse) accept him along their lines, only for the baby T-Rex to grow naturally bigger and eat them in the end. Be careful of the kings that you put on the throne, of the machines whose A.I. you have just programmed, or the lurkers whose attention was deserved because you are an impressionable kid. If I'm not modded, then I'll simply stop giving ideas, so I'm better off with moderation.

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Re: Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:17 am

Desassina wrote:I'm sorry, but... you were appalled? What are you now, another one of those who waits for someone else's mistake for you to rant about? Is it kudos that you're earning or some other currency that I don't know of? This is the epitome of what companies do to earn power for themselves by getting others to point in a direction, dispatch of their influence no matter how little and to assume it for themselves. It's like a baby T-Rex who gets along with velociraptors, because they have vision and communicate or (worse) accept him along their lines, only for the baby T-Rex to grow naturally bigger and eat them in the end. Be careful of the kings that you put on the throne, of the machines whose A.I. you have just programmed, or the lurkers whose attention was deserved because you are an impressionable kid. If I'm not modded, then I'll simply stop giving ideas, so I'm better off with moderation.
I don't even remotely have a clue what you're saying, so I'm not entirely sure if you need moderation.
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Re: Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

Post by Desassina » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:20 am

VegettoEX wrote:I don't even remotely have a clue what you're saying, so I'm not entirely sure if you need moderation.
Vegetto, do people really need to interpret the things that one says their own way so that they can rant about it? I say that it's a journey, going from one place to another, quite literally, with nothing else between the lines, but they are brought about as "personal journey", "self discovery", and so on because they want to rant about it? This is one example. I can't even remotely understand what was it that people saw in my opening post with regards to "skip Dragon Ball", "do not read the manga", and so on, but it's getting attacked or deserving an appalled reaction. Come on, man!

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Re: Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

Post by Lunaar » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:50 am

Desassina wrote: I can't even remotely understand what was it that people saw in my opening post with regards to "skip Dragon Ball", "do not read the manga", and so on, but it's getting attacked or deserving an appalled reaction. Come on, man!
Hi! It appears that I have struck a nerve with you, so I should be the one apologizing. What appalled me was the topic title itself, suggesting that there is an "order" to watch Dragon Ball in. When I read that, the first thing that came to my mind is the idea that someone would even think to start watching at Z, even to this day. Thanks to how we received the show in North America, this is still a common error in judgment 20 years later. As I mentioned above, everyone (including you!) has contributed fairly thus far, so I really don't have any "mistakes" to rant about. No attacks on you, it's all good!

As for your um... colorful metaphors (are those metaphors? I'm not even sure anymore), I'm sorry if I pushed you to feel that it's necessary to stand up for your opinion. I would be lying if I said I wasn't getting some sort of self-satisfaction in posting on these forums, though that feeling stems from discussing the show with the community and learning something new along the way. I'm not here to shit on others. :( I will admit to coming across as elitist about this stuff, but I'm doing my best to be constructive and only add to the conversation! I am in no way attempting to moderate. Sure, I didn't need to write in length about skipping DB, but if there is even a slight chance that a lurker or potential viewer comes across this topic, I want to make sure that we are screaming from the rooftops: do not skip Dragon Ball. Have I made that clear yet? :wink:
Gogegito wrote:Gotenks said "I cant let him fight just like that, please trunks help me, he's my brother" And trunks also had undesrstanding eyes.
Ajay wrote:It's probably savagely lit. I dunno.
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Re: Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

Post by Desassina » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:56 am

Yes, you have been clear. Looking back, even I don't have the best choice of words when it comes to English (I used nitpick, for example, when it should have been attention to detail), and I may have looked at appalled and thought about it negatively, but I should have gone past that (which I did, but with another mindset) to read the fact that everyone contributed in a positive way. It's just that I can't help but feel that if things can be said in a simpler manner, then it's how it should be. My problem is that, with basic typing mechanics that I don't have to think about too much, the way that I appear to be, judging from my posts, is exactly how I am. I don't carefully select Caps Lock to give an impression of anger. I simply type my heart out, to the point of when it gets out of control, and the metaphors come out. I'm sorry about that.

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Re: Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

Post by Lunaar » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:19 pm

No worries, I gotcha. Being able to express yourself beyond basic proclamations should be something Kanzenshuu welcomes, from my experience. ...as long as we stay on-topic. :thumbup:
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Re: Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:39 pm

sintzu wrote:
ABED wrote:You're starting the story 1/3 of the way through and 133 episodes is still long. It's not a complete experience. You miss out on so much of DB's rich history.
As much as I'd like to defend my points, you're not wrong either as there's so much greatness in DB but...it'd be so much easier to recommend if it got the Kai treatment and same push in marketing as Z does.

The issue I see with DB has nothing to do with quality as I myself always watch it before Kai but rather someone coming in and asking to see what they've been seeing everywhere only to be told they'll have to wait 133 episodes to get there. It also doesn't help that everyone involved act like it doesn't exist.

In terms of a complete experience, I know it isn't which I pointed out in my second post by saying somewhat as Kai works well enough on its own but you still miss how everyone got there. Maybe it's because I grew up with Z and the west has this odd view on DB that I think it'd be hard to get someone in through DB but I guess the only way to know is try so DB is what I'll be telling people to start with and see how it goes.
But it makes it sound like by starting at the beginning, you're telling them "just wait, you have to get through this until it gets to the good parts". Part of experiencing something is to experience it for its own sake, not merely because everyone else is talking about it. I understand your point, but even if you want to fast forward, there are better starting points than Z or even Kai that have the elements Z is known for.
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Re: Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

Post by sintzu » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:16 pm

ABED wrote:It makes it sound like by starting at the beginning, you're telling them "just wait, you have to get through this until it gets to the good parts".
Maybe it comes off like that but that's not what I mean as I think the original DB has some of the franchise's best parts. Starting with Z wasn't the way DB was supposed to be experienced but with me starting that way, it's hard to get out of that mindset, regardless of how many times I've seen them in the right order.

I guess the best example I can use is writing, if you've written a word a certain way for awhile only to find out you were doing it wrong, it can be hard to get out of the habit as your brain is programmed on your first spelling. That also happens to me with gaming when a sequel decides to change the controls.
ABED wrote:There are better starting points than Z or even Kai that have the elements Z is known for.
It's not just about the Z elements but what feels like a start other than the actual start and the closest to that is the Saiyan arc.
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Re: Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

Post by Shaddy » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:46 pm

sintzu wrote:
Shaddy wrote:I'd say the best way of experiencing the series' story is the shortest way possible, even if it's not official. Iamthemilkman's Dragon Ball Recut, DB Kai, then BoG, RoF, and starting at episode 28 of Super would be the way I'd recommend, just because it's the only way to get the animated version of Toriyama's story in less than 150 fucking hours.
DB's episodes without the filler is 133 which I don't think is a lot. The problem isn't really the shows themselves but rather trying to get someone who isn't into those long 500+ shows to get into the entire franchise which is why I'd recommend Kai from the start as it's not crazy long
I would say the problem is the shows themselves, actually. Because while length is always a factor in media, it's what you do with it that's important, and the fact is, there isn't a good reason for Dragon Ball's anime to be as long and padded as it is. Filler episodes aren't great, but the real problem is filler and padded content in canon episodes. The Red Ribbon arc of DB Classic suffers horribly in the anime because of it, and the less said about all of Z, the better. After all, there's people who still watch the Simpsons after 600 episodes, and that show suffered horribly in writing quality, but every episode has it's own pace from start to end, something that DB noticeably lacks when it's common for the studio to adapt one or less chapter per episode. I was counting the shortest possible way to watch the series (filler cuts, Kai etc.) when I made the 150-hour comment last night, and the total still comes out to over 120-something, when it doesn't need to.

The ultimate fact is that adapting a currently-running manga into a show and never taking a single break in your production will never lead to a product as good as if you'd just gone by seasons and paced everything according to the original series' content rather than what might make money. Shonen anime in general understands this better now with JoJo, Hero Academia and the like, but that only makes the outliers like DB, One Piece and Nart more egregious.

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Re: Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:37 pm

Not all the filler is bad, though. There's plenty of good stuff. The Red Ribbon arc isn't that great to begin with.
It's not just about the Z elements but what feels like a start other than the actual start and the closest to that is the Saiyan arc.
It doesn't feel like a start when you actually look at it. Yes, there's a convenient time jump, but so much of what DBZ is gets lost because the audience doesn't care for the characters. It's not like other long running works where the author assumes people are jumping on an already running train so he tries to catch them up. It's not a complicated story. A couple minutes, if that, to explain a small amount of back story would suffice if you want to skip to the best parts, which don't start with DBZ.
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