Something superior to arguing canon: entertainment order.

[sintzu]

Filler episodes aren't great, but the real problem is filler and padded content in canon episodes. The Red Ribbon arc of DB Classic suffers horribly in the anime because of it.

Shonen anime in general understands this better now with JoJo, Hero Academia and the like, but that only makes the outliers like DB, One Piece and Naurto more egregious.

Although the padding wasn't great, I'm happy that it was in that arc and not one of the better ones like the Piccolo arcs.

Naruto did have a somewhat seasonal format by having canon arcs followed by filler arcs. This was of course a drag to get through if you were a weekly viewer but when it's all said and done you can easily skip those filler arcs and enjoy the canon ones that adapt 2-3 chapters per episode. By doing that not only did they give us good canon adaptions but also a lot of enjoying original stories in those filler arcs. The other way just ruins everything as the canon material is stretched out and the filler is just the padding runing the canon material.

[KBABZ]

Filler episodes aren't great, but the real problem is filler and padded content in canon episodes. The Red Ribbon arc of DB Classic suffers horribly in the anime because of it.

Shonen anime in general understands this better now with JoJo, Hero Academia and the like, but that only makes the outliers like DB, One Piece and Naurto more egregious.

Although the padding wasn't great, I'm happy that it was in that arc and not one of the better ones like the Piccolo arcs.

Naruto did have a somewhat seasonal format by having canon arcs followed by filler arcs. This was of course a drag to get through if you were a weekly viewer but when it's all said and done you can easily skip those filler arcs and enjoy the canon ones that adapt 2-3 chapters per episode. By doing that not only did they give us good canon adaptions but also a lot of enjoying original stories in those filler arcs. The other way just ruins everything as the canon material is stretched out and the filler is just the padding runing the canon material.

Working on T1C has made me acutely aware of the amount of in-episode filler. Even the very first episode had it with Goku and the sabre-toothed cat on top of cutting away to Pilaf getting the One-Star Ball. Then of course there are the couple of episodes where there's an episode's worth of filler, but it's cut into the MIDDLE of an existing one! Tao climbing up Korin's Tower is an example of this, so even if you remove filler episodes like Dreamland and Colonel Silver stuff, you STILL have to put up with that stuff.

And then there's stuff that is literally just padding for no reason. The fight with Goku and Krillin in the 22nd Tournament is really one episode, but by having extra bout sequences, it gets stretched out to two for no reason! And of course if they can't be bothered to do that they'll fill time by delaying the match. Giran's is particularly noticeable, but Goku vs Panpoot makes a five-second fight stretch to a whole episode by having pre-match shenanigans! It made sense back in 1987 when it was running alongside the manga, but in 2018 trying to watch the story unfold, it feels insulting that it thinks it can waste my time like that.

[sintzu]

It doesn't feel like a start when you actually look at it.

It starts with Goku's origin and everyone who's relevant is more or less just getting introduced like the Saiyans. Everything is is clearly explained like his relation with the others and who they are. If it didn't work as a starting point (it's not a prefect one, I know that) then Toei and Jump wouldn't have started Kai with it. They wouldn't have started the Dragon boxes and dvd singles with it. They wouldn't have started the full color version of the manga with it.

If someone wnats to get into the franchise as a whole then of course they should start at the beginning but if for whatever reaosn it doesn't work then they can just skip to Z and maybe go back once they're done with it.

[Robo4900]

Working on T1C has made me acutely aware of the amount of in-episode filler. Even the very first episode had it with Goku and the sabre-toothed cat on top of cutting away to Pilaf getting the One-Star Ball.

That's not filler. They had a 2-year lead on the manga at the time; anything added to the anime in the first few episodes was put there to aid episode pacing. And in the case of the Pilaf cutaway in particular, this means that instead of the manga's way of Bulma explaining what the Dragon Balls are, and Pilaf not showing up until a few chapters later, the anime sets up Pilaf as a villain from the very beginning, and uses the explanation of the Dragon Balls to inform the viewer of the intentions and general deal of the Pilaf gang, the villains of the piece; this approach is very efficient storytelling, since instead of spending one scene early on explaining what the balls are, then one scene later on to explain who Pilaf is, we get two for the price of one. For this reason, I've always considered this first episode to be superior to its manga counterpart. I've only read very small portions of the manga, so I can't comment on the rest of the series, but I will absolutely stand by this very early material being superior in anime.

Honestly, I think you're taking a pretty cynical attitude to the anime-only material overall, dude; you seem to think anything that wasn't in the manga is evil, and should be excised from the show, regardless of what the material is. Anime and manga are different mediums, so of course there's going to be differences across the adaptations.
Here's something that might be worth thinking about: You say you're only really aware of this now that you're working on your fanedit... So that means you never noticed it when you were just watching the show? So, surely it's not a problem then?

[ABED]

A reveal that has no impact because we have only just met the character. It's like having Luke Skywalker's parentage revealed 20 minutes after meeting him. Lots of reveals about who the characters are doesn't mean it has any relevance or weight. It's taken as a given that Chaozu, Muten Roshi, and Kuririn have all died before. What? When did that happen? If you haven't seen it, you're shit out of luck. What about Goku's rivalry with Piccolo and their team up? We are told a little about it, but it lacks any weight as we haven't EXPERIENCED any of it.

They wouldn't have started the Dragon boxes and dvd singles with it.

It only works as a starting point because the old plot threads had been tied up, but it's only the beginning of an arc, not a TV show. Far too much is taken as a given. It only works insofar as it's a very simple story.

I agree with Robo4900. In the manga, Pilaf is only in the last few chapters of the first arc. I think the anime made a good choice by having him in the story from the beginning. Not all filler is bad. The fight filler with Kuririn at the 22nd Budokai as well as the fight filler in the Goku vs. Vegeta in the Saiyan arc are good examples of adding good material. When you write "for no reason", what constitutes a good reason?

I'm a completionist, so I watch everything, including filler, but generally, the worst filler are the cutaways and filler arcs. If I could easily switch between Kai for canon episodes and Z for a few filler episodes such as the Saiyan arc filler, I would.

[Robo4900]

A reveal that has no impact because we have only just met the character. It's like having Luke Skywalker's parentage revealed 20 minutes after meeting him. Lots of reveals about who the characters are doesn't mean it has any relevance or weight. It's taken as a given that Chaozu, Muten Roshi, and Kuririn have all died before. What? When did that happen? If you haven't seen it, you're shit out of luck. What about Goku's rivalry with Piccolo and their team up? We are told a little about it, but it lacks any weight as we haven't EXPERIENCED any of it.

Yep, absolutely.

The beginning of Z is an interesting place to start an anime, since you have the rather novel "In medias res" style of introducing the characters as people who already know each-other, and throwing them right into the story with Goku dying, and having an antihero ready to go from the beginning.
Problem is, while it's an intersting start, it doesn't have that much impact other than "What a strange way to start a story." All you know about Piccolo is that he's kind of an antihero, and without prior context, his heel-face-turn when he and Gohan spend some time together doesn't have much more impact than "Ah, okay, so he is a goodguy after all. Fair enough." Maybe if this was 1996, and you were watching the episodes weekly, it'd be a little better, since this would take place over the course of about 20 weeks, which is just over a third of a year, so your slower exposure to the story will mean you'll be more invested in it potentially, but we're not in 1996, we're in 2018, the era of binging everything in one go. Dragon Ball Z & GT together is 355 episodes; Dragon Ball Kai and Super is ~297. Adding another 153 before that, which actually gets you the beginning of the story, gives you a grounding and context for who the characters are, why they're doing what they're doing, and gives you a proper sense of the impact of Goku being an alien -- something he's informed of right before being killed -- and Piccolo not only training Gohan, but sacrificing himself to save Gohan.
And, of course, there's the rules of the world that you'll already understand; you'll know in advance that Piccolo's death will also kill Kami, and disable the Dragon Balls; you'll know that Saiyans transform when they see the full moon...

Skipping Dragon Ball is just a bad idea. You lose so much, and gain absolutely nothing. Especially when we're in the age of binging, where more content -- especially long-form content like Dragon Ball & Z -- is ideal.

I agree with Robo4900. In the manga, Pilaf is only in the last few chapters of the first arc. I think the anime made a good choice by having him in the story from the beginning. Not all filler is bad. The fight filler with Kuririn at the 22nd Budokai as well as the fight filler in the Goku vs. Vegeta in the Saiyan arc are good examples of adding good material. When you write "for no reason", what constitutes a good reason?

Indeed.

Goku vs. Vegeta is a classic fight for a reason. Same goes for the rather underrated Goku vs Kuririn fight.
And remember, anime and manga are different mediums, so of course some things should be changed when adapting one to the other; doing a direct page to screen adaptation would be wonky at best.

[KBABZ]

Working on T1C has made me acutely aware of the amount of in-episode filler. Even the very first episode had it with Goku and the sabre-toothed cat on top of cutting away to Pilaf getting the One-Star Ball.

That's not filler. They had a 2-year lead on the manga at the time; anything added to the anime in the first few episodes was put there to aid episode pacing. And in the case of the Pilaf cutaway in particular, this means that instead of the manga's way of Bulma explaining what the Dragon Balls are, and Pilaf not showing up until a few chapters later, the anime sets up Pilaf as a villain from the very beginning, and uses the explanation of the Dragon Balls to inform the viewer of the intentions and general deal of the Pilaf gang, the villains of the piece; this approach is very efficient storytelling, since instead of spending one scene early on explaining what the balls are, then one scene later on to explain who Pilaf is, we get two for the price of one. For this reason, I've always considered this first episode to be superior to its manga counterpart. I've only read very small portions of the manga, so I can't comment on the rest of the series, but I will absolutely stand by this very early material being superior in anime.

In the manga the Pilaf gang did not show up until after the Rabbit Gang episode, and they were considered one-off "final bosses" of the arc as the search drew the Dragon Ball gang into their territory. All that stuff with the Skull Valley search, searching Kame House and trying the plant the bomb on the double decker camper is completely unique to the anime, and two of these have them not even interact with the heroes! In the end it turns the Pilaf Gang from the final challenge for the last Dragon Ball into the arc villains, which is a pretty big change IMO.

One minor aspect that gets missed in regards to starting with Z first is that, if you watch Dragon Ball first, you completely understand the reactions of Bulma, Krillin and Roshi when they freak out that Goku, the bumbling super-powerful kid of yore, actually reproduced and has a son. They're worried it'll be like Kid Goku all over again, especially with that tail!

[Robo4900]

In the manga the Pilaf gang did not show up until after the Rabbit Gang episode, and they were considered one-off "final bosses" of the arc as the search drew the Dragon Ball gang into their territory. All that stuff with the Skull Valley search, searching Kame House and trying the plant the bomb on the double decker camper is completely unique to the anime, and two of these have them not even interact with the heroes! In the end it turns the Pilaf Gang from the final challenge for the last Dragon Ball into the arc villains, which is a pretty big change IMO.

Yeah. And I would argue a change for the positive.
As it is, the protagonists stumble across the Pilaf gang basically just because in the manga. In the anime, we know there's three forces competing for the Dragon Balls, which gives things a bit more tension; we've got the protagonists, but we've also got Yamcha tailing them for the balls, and we've got the Pilaf gang hanging around too.
Presumably, the Pilaf gang can track where the balls are if they're collecting them, or at the very least they'd be aware of what's going on with the balls due to whatever resources they use to find the balls, so why the hell wouldn't they be aware of the protagonists in advance, and be trying to foil them before they showed up on Pilaf's doorstep?

There are handwaves to this, and of course, Toriyama always wrote by the seat of his pants, but Toei actually addressed this, and in the process added many entertaining additional scenes to the first arc, which makes it tie together much more cohesively as one continuous, 13-episodes story.

Again, as I say, 20-minute episodic TV is a very different format than 15-page serialised manga. Remember, the first 13 episodes of the show were adapted from 23 chapters of manga; it's not like they were just adding random padding for no reason, it was done with a purpose, and I would argue removing it hurts the show.

One minor aspect that gets missed in regards to starting with Z first is that, if you watch Dragon Ball first, you completely understand the reactions of Bulma, Krillin and Roshi when they freak out that Goku, the bumbling super-powerful kid of yore, actually reproduced and has a son. They're worried it'll be like Kid Goku all over again, especially with that tail!

Haha, indeed. If you start from Z, their reaction just seems like a funny moment that comes outta no-where. If you're familiar with the run of the show up to that point, you know that's a perfect valid reaction, and -- in my view, at least -- even funnier because of how spot-on it is.

[Shaddy]

Although the padding wasn't great, I'm happy that it was in that arc and not one of the better ones like the Piccolo arcs.

Naruto did have a somewhat seasonal format by having canon arcs followed by filler arcs. This was of course a drag to get through if you were a weekly viewer but when it's all said and done you can easily skip those filler arcs and enjoy the canon ones that adapt 2-3 chapters per episode. By doing that not only did they give us good canon adaptions but also a lot of enjoying original stories in those filler arcs. The other way just ruins everything as the canon material is stretched out and the filler is just the padding runing the canon material.

Uh, it's not "this is the instance where original DB has filler", dude. The whole series has filler, padding, and meaningless extra content, be it added to manga content or in it's own episodes. The only reason the tournaments last as long as they do in the anime, for example, is because there's constantly pre-fight shenanigans going on, as well as cutting back to the audiences' reaction and interaction whenever the characters do anything, and it makes it a total slog to watch. Red Ribbon having the most filler didn't save Piccolo from having filler.

Either way, my point was that no first-timer should have to deal with any more boring slow nonsense than they have to, and regardless of whether it was commonplace in the 80s, people have different standards now and that shit doesn't fly.

On the subject of Nart, I'd have to disagree. Having filler episodes in-between stretches of canon is not as good as actual seasons. It only has the downsides of seasonal shows door the viewers. Because season breaks completely change how a show can be scheduled, how it can be advertised when it's coming back, and how it can be produced within a certain amount of episodes. When it's not showing filler episodes, Naruto still has filler scenes to pad out regular episodes, just like with DB. It's not as bad as Z, but it's far from what an actually seasonal show could provide pacing-wise, and that's ignoring the visual improvements that would come with things having a per-season budget and schedule rather than a per-episode one.

Watching Nart and Kakashi chase that bomb guy while Sakura was fighting the puppet dude gave me AIDS.

[sintzu]

that bomb guy / the puppet dude.

Great names.

I know Naruto wasn't perfect as it also had issues thanks to the weekly format but if I had to pick between filler arcs or filler in canon material I'd take the arcs anyday as they go a long way in making the canon material better.

[VegettoEX]

Watching Nart and Kakashi chase that bomb guy while Sakura was fighting the puppet dude gave me AIDS.

This is another example where obviously someone is exaggerating for (perhaps comedic?) effect, and we of course know that someone did not literally contract acquired immune deficiency syndrome from bad anime filler.

But it's just ridiculous to have to read something like this here. There are better ways to express yourself. There are ways that communicate what you want to say better, that don't make you look cold and heartless, and that reflect well upon this community rather than embarrassing it.

Strive for something better.

[ABED]

Although the padding wasn't great, I'm happy that it was in that arc and not one of the better ones like the Piccolo arcs.

Naruto did have a somewhat seasonal format by having canon arcs followed by filler arcs. This was of course a drag to get through if you were a weekly viewer but when it's all said and done you can easily skip those filler arcs and enjoy the canon ones that adapt 2-3 chapters per episode. By doing that not only did they give us good canon adaptions but also a lot of enjoying original stories in those filler arcs. The other way just ruins everything as the canon material is stretched out and the filler is just the padding runing the canon material.

Uh, it's not "this is the instance where original DB has filler", dude. The whole series has filler, padding, and meaningless extra content, be it added to manga content or in it's own episodes. The only reason the tournaments last as long as they do in the anime, for example, is because there's constantly pre-fight shenanigans going on, as well as cutting back to the audiences' reaction and interaction whenever the characters do anything, and it makes it a total slog to watch. Red Ribbon having the most filler didn't save Piccolo from having filler.

Either way, my point was that no first-timer should have to deal with any more boring slow nonsense than they have to, and regardless of whether it was commonplace in the 80s, people have different standards now and that shit doesn't fly.

On the subject of Nart, I'd have to disagree. Having filler episodes in-between stretches of canon is not as good as actual seasons. It only has the downsides of seasonal shows door the viewers. Because season breaks completely change how a show can be scheduled, how it can be advertised when it's coming back, and how it can be produced within a certain amount of episodes. When it's not showing filler episodes, Naruto still has filler scenes to pad out regular episodes, just like with DB. It's not as bad as Z, but it's far from what an actually seasonal show could provide pacing-wise, and that's ignoring the visual improvements that would come with things having a per-season budget and schedule rather than a per-episode one.

Watching Nart and Kakashi chase that bomb guy while Sakura was fighting the puppet dude gave me AIDS.

And sometimes that padding can be used to good effect. Sometimes the manga feels like it's in a rush to get to the end. Those extra bits can help create a mood and build tension. The problem isn't filler as such, but the execution of that filler. Or in some cases, a change to the story can be an improvement over the original. For instance, Goku having to search for the special water to increase his strength before fighting Piccolo was a vast improvement over "let me get this water off panel".

[sintzu]

And sometimes that padding can be used to good effect. Sometimes the manga feels like it's in a rush to get to the end.

The Buu arc is a great example of this as Toriyama was clearly rushed to finish everything but Toei did an amazing job with it.

[johnboy1]

Personally, the best watch-through order for me is by release date. Specifically, this is a list of all officially dubbed/subbed material prior to Super in the proper order...

[spoiler]DB 1-43

Curse of the Blood Rubies

DB 44-70

Sleeping Princess in Devil's Castle

DB 71-118

Mystical Adventure

DB 119-153

DBZ 1-11

Dead Zone

DBZ 12-39

The World's Strongest

DBZ 40-54

Tree of Might

DBZ 55-63

Bardock: The Father of Goku

DBZ 64-81

Lord Slug

DBZ 82-99

Cooler's Revenge

DBZ 100-123

"The World of Dragon Ball Z"*

DBZ 124-130

The Return of Cooler

DBZ 131-147

Super Android 13

DBZ 148-175

The History of Trunks

DBZ 176

Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan

DBZ 177-192

Bojack Unbound

DBZ 193-220

Broly: Second Coming

DBZ 221-232

Bio Broly

DBZ 233-258

Fusion Reborn

DBZ 259-270

Wrath of the Dragon

DBZ 271-291

DBGT 1-4

The Path to Power

DBGT 5-16

"A Grand Problem"*

DBGT 17-41

A Hero's Legacy

DBGT 42-64

The Return of Son Goku and Friends!

Evolution

DBK 1-79

Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans

DBK 80-98

Episode of Bardock

Battle of Gods

DBK 99-155

Resurrection F

DBK 156-167


*English-only clipshows. Inserted at the points they were released/aired in the US.[/spoiler]

[ABED]

I get the idea of release date order, but doesn't it make much more sense to watch the movies around the time the events would've presumably taken place or the episode the movies are retelling. For instance, why not watch DB movie 1 after DB episode 13?

[KBABZ]

I get the idea of release date order, but doesn't it make much more sense to watch the movies around the time the events would've presumably taken place or the episode the movies are retelling. For instance, why not watch DB movie 1 after DB episode 13?

I would even argue that, after the Baba (yaga) saga, you watch all three DB movies as a trilogy since they pick up after each other.

[Shaddy]

I know Naruto wasn't perfect as it also had issues thanks to the weekly format but if I had to pick between filler arcs or filler in canon material I'd take the arcs anyday as they go a long way in making the canon material better.

And I'll say that in terms of pacing, watching only the canon episodes leads to a better paced show than DB, but I don't think we should have to choose when the standards have changed the way they have. I'd rather wait through a real season break to be assured that the production has been focused on individual episodes rather than insane longevity.

Watching Nart and Kakashi chase that bomb guy while Sakura was fighting the puppet dude gave me AIDS.

This is another example where obviously someone is exaggerating for (perhaps comedic?) effect, and we of course know that someone did not literally contract acquired immune deficiency syndrome from bad anime filler.

But it's just ridiculous to have to read something like this here. There are better ways to express yourself. There are ways that communicate what you want to say better, that don't make you look cold and heartless, and that reflect well upon this community rather than embarrassing it.

Strive for something better.

I apologize, I should have considered what I was saying before I said it. I promise I'll be more thoughtful in the future.

And sometimes that padding can be used to good effect. Sometimes the manga feels like it's in a rush to get to the end. Those extra bits can help create a mood and build tension. The problem isn't filler as such, but the execution of that filler. Or in some cases, a change to the story can be an improvement over the original. For instance, Goku having to search for the special water to increase his strength before fighting Piccolo was a vast improvement over "let me get this water off panel".

Sure it can be used for good, it just usually isn't. Even your example always felt like a weird distraction from what the plot was actually supposed to be about, before I even knew it was filler. Barring the fact that I think the show totally would be better without the padding, it could still have been done better. Expand on fights, give the animators some freedom, do new things with what you have instead of just cutting to Bulma and Crane Hermit arguing about nothing. There are plenty of little examples you could say add something to the show, but it's far from worth it when the vast majority is just waiting around for someone to do something.

The Buu arc is a great example of this as Toriyama was clearly rushed to finish everything but Toei did an amazing job with it.

And I $100% disagree with this. The Buu saga got the shaft from Toei in every way but animation quality. If they wanted to expand on an arc by changing things, they should have focused on having it make sense. Instead, we just got even more intense time-killing than the last three arcs, for one that should have moved at breakneck pace and been a refreshing change compared to the others. Even Kai's version still had way more filler content than the other 97 episodes.

Or hell, if you're gonna make fights longer, can't you just do it organically by animating a lot more fighting? Yu Yu Hakusho did this wonderfully, and I don't think any of it's fights are longer than four episodes, barely the minimum of what Dragon Ball got.

I'm pretty sure "rushing" by Dragon Ball standards is still slower than normal pacing by anything else's standards.

[sintzu]

f you're gonna make fights longer, can't you just do it organically by animating a lot more fighting ?

That's what they did. Goku and Majin Vegeta's fight mostly happened of page in the manga while the anime showed us an entire fight, one that was anticipated for years. What a disappointment it must've been for manga only readers at the time to see such a bult up fight be pushed to the side.

The same thing happened with Goku's fight against Kid Buu, in the manga it was less than a chapter long while the anime gave it 2 episodes which are among the anime's best choreographed fights.

[ABED]

Sure it can be used for good, it just usually isn't. Even your example always felt like a weird distraction from what the plot was actually supposed to be about

It's not a distraction. It's better just by virtue of not being a lazy deus ex machina. How is it a distraction and what is the plot supposed to be about?

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Goku vs Majin Vegeta fight was pure fluff. There was no weight behind it, just a minor plot point to revive Buu and the anime DRAGS that fight on so much it becomes boring. Everytime they cut back I'm like are we still on this dumb fight? There are far more important things going on and they keep cutting away to this stupid fight.

Toriyama knew this and didn't waste his readers time, the fight had one purpose and that was to revive Buu. A Goku vs Vegeta should not be a minor plot point.

Then Vegetto, Toei made his plan seem even more stupid by dragging it out, like kill Buu and revive the others simple, but the anime had Vegetto completely dominate Buu to the point it's like the plan was pointless and dumb then. Again Toriyama was good enough to not waste his readers time with what was just yet another minor plot point.

Come to think about it most of the epic moments in the Buu arc were just that minor plot points/devices. Goku vs Majin Vegeta only happened so to revive Buu, Vegeta's sacrifice amounted to nothing other than getting Vegeta out the picture, SS3 was a way to drain Goku's time and get him out the way and Buu vs Vegetto only happened to get to Pure Buu.