The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

[kemuri07]

I can understand wanting to see your favs get some love, but what you consider a noteworthy moment differs from person to person.

Many of my friends feel the same way I do about Super, but I don't speak for others of course.

The thing that does bug me is when some make it sound like Goku is a primadona or like it's uncommon for DB or other stories to keep the overwhelming bulk of the focus on a single character. Goku doesn't need to step down. It's his story.

I never said he had to step down, just to step aside a bit like he did in DBZ.

Do you mean in the Cell arc? If so, I would argue that Goku stepping aside wasn't for the better of the story. There's no physical need for Goku to step aside and pass the torch like real life athletes have to do.

Except, not really. The problem with Goku's continued presence in the franchise is that, for the most part, his entire character arc is done and has been completed since arguably the Frieza saga. Which is why the rumors are persistent in that the Cell saga was absolutely meant to be the passing of the torch from Goku to Gohan.

[SsjCookie]

What I take issue with is when fans directly attack writers and staff members, and act childishly. But to express a desire to see more of character X, Y , Z - nothing wrong with that, as long as you do it in moderation.

I am a HUGE fan of Dragonball, but I'm not rabid....at least I hope I'm not.

People who threaten writers and staff members because they're unsatisfied with the way things go, need to get their heads examined.
I'm still living in the real world.

[Michsi]

What I take issue with is when fans directly attack writers and staff members, and act childishly. But to express a desire to see more of character X, Y , Z - nothing wrong with that, as long as you do it in moderation.

I am a HUGE fan of Dragonball, but I'm not rabid....at least I hope I'm not.

People who threaten writers and staff members because they're unsatisfied with the way things go, need to get their heads examined.
I'm still living in the real world.

Just to be clear, I wasn't referring to you here. I meant the attitude in general.

I'm not part of the SU community or Voltron fandom but I've still managed to see some really toxic behavior there that ended with show writers leaving twitter and so on.

[SsjCookie]

What I take issue with is when fans directly attack writers and staff members, and act childishly. But to express a desire to see more of character X, Y , Z - nothing wrong with that, as long as you do it in moderation.

I am a HUGE fan of Dragonball, but I'm not rabid....at least I hope I'm not.

People who threaten writers and staff members because they're unsatisfied with the way things go, need to get their heads examined.
I'm still living in the real world.

Just to be clear, I wasn't referring to you here. I meant the attitude in general.

I'm not part of the SU community or Voltron fandom but I've still managed to see some really toxic behavior there that ended with show writers leaving twitter and so on.

Oh don't worry, I know you weren't referring to me, I just wanted to point out how greatly I disapprove of people threatening others over a bloody cartoon.

[ABED]

I am unabashed Goku fan and I think dragon ball is at its best when he is the lead, but that didn’t preclude his supporting cast from getting plenty of great moments. Super seems to have more fundamental problems that won’t be solved by decreasing his screen time.

[SsjCookie]

Many of my friends feel the same way I do about Super, but I don't speak for others of course.



I never said he had to step down, just to step aside a bit like he did in DBZ.

Do you mean in the Cell arc? If so, I would argue that Goku stepping aside wasn't for the better of the story. There's no physical need for Goku to step aside and pass the torch like real life athletes have to do.

Except, not really. The problem with Goku's continued presence in the franchise is that, for the most part, his entire character arc is done and has been completed since arguably the Frieza saga. Which is why the rumors are persistent in that the Cell saga was absolutely meant to be the passing of the torch from Goku to Gohan.

I partly agree with you on the character of Goku being completed.
The Goku in Super didn't grew as a person, he really needs to get more personal growth in the future.
He's now relying way too much on the Dragonballs (all three sets of them) and that made him careless, he's too spoiled.

[ABED]

What kind of personal growth? It still has to retain dragon ball’s dna.

[SsjCookie]

What kind of personal growth? It still has to retain dragon ball’s dna.

The Goku in Super kinda regressed in his character in comparison to Z in my opinion.
Maybe he needs a bit more drama in his life.

Super plays too much on safe, I want it to have more drama like in the F Trunks saga.
There has to be stakes again, real tension and emotion.
Goku's life is just too perfect to stay interesting.

These 3 sets of Dragonballs are kinda ruining that.

[GamerSkull]

What kind of personal growth? It still has to retain dragon ball’s dna.

DBS's depiction of Goku is heavily flanderized. He was a silly character but... even in Z, he seemed more intelligent than he does in Super.

Like not knowing much about kissing (cute for a 12-14 year old boy but not for a man in his late 30s).

Or being so lackadaisical with a childish entity that could literally wipe out everyone out of boredom.

Stuff like that.

I dunno. Goku has never been that intelligent in his depiction but there are several instances where I feel Super truly takes things too far. I agree that this feels like a regression and there needs to be stakes for him again, or at the very least, he needs to be more aware of the stakes. The current arc has him competing for the survival of his universe but his competition losing means destruction... but there is also no moral issues brought up with that. It's a kids show so I can understand why but they can't just have Goku going "Well, at least I get to fight" and hardly take those things into consideration.

[Michsi]

What kind of personal growth? It still has to retain dragon ball’s dna.

The Goku in Super kinda regressed in his character in comparison to Z in my opinion.
Maybe he needs a bit more drama in his life.
.

Even now I still think that that scene where he goes to remind the Omni King of the tournament to be one of his worst moments. The way he blows off Beerus' warning and even taunts him with the button reminded me so much of a petulant five year old.

He was never this blatantly self-absorbed and reckless in Z.

[ABED]

I think there's confusion about what kind of story this is or even what stakes are. The end of the world is certainly a stake, but so is victory. It matters to Goku as he's always been about the thrill of battle. I defer to people who know the tropes of the genres DB is rooted in, but it would seem odd that Goku finally learns the lesson you guys want him to learn.

He was never this blatantly self-absorbed and reckless in Z.

The Cyborg/Cell arc is the result of him letting the cyborgs be created for the sake a fight.

[Michsi]

He was never this blatantly self-absorbed and reckless in Z.

The Cyborg/Cell arc is the result of him letting the cyborgs be created for the sake a fight.

If you've had seen the DBS scene, you'd know how differently they frame the situation. In the Cell arc, he chooses to not prevent an upcoming threat because he wants to face the opponent head on (and oddly enough, we do get Goku showing a bit of pseudo-righteousness by claiming that the androids hadn't done anything bad yet, so killing them before a crime would be unfair ); in DBS he is practically the cause for the danger. People warn him not to do something that would put everyone in danger and he just ignores it. And the way he carries himself is way too flippant, even for him.

[ABED]

The feels like a difference without a distinction. He wanted to face the enemy head on because he wanted to fight. He wasn't out to save the world. He was in it for the thrill of the battle. He is given advanced warning of what will happen and he allows the threat to be completed. His comment about Dr. Gero not doing anything bad yet is both false and tossed away comment that even Goku didn't truly believe nor ultimately care about. It was a rationalization. The scale is different in Super, but the essence is the same as when he let Piccolo and Vegeta go just because he wanted to fight them.

[Michsi]

The feels like a difference without a distinction.

I have no idea what you mean here.

The scenes depict his recklessness differently- that's all there is to it.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

What kind of personal growth? It still has to retain dragon ball’s dna.

The Goku in Super kinda regressed in his character in comparison to Z in my opinion.
Maybe he needs a bit more drama in his life.
.

Even now I still think that that scene where he goes to remind the Omni King of the tournament to be one of his worst moments. The way he blows off Beerus' warning and even taunts him with the button reminded me so much of a petulant five year old.

He was never this blatantly self-absorbed and reckless in Z.

How? In Z he was constantly like that. Despite Vegeta literally being responsible for the murder of his friends he let him go. He gave Freeza a last chance and didn't finish the job.

He didn't want the Androids to be stopped beforehand despite Trunks warning. He didn't take the heart medicine when Trunks literally told him he was gonna die. He gave Cell a senzu bean for his fight with Gohan not him his son, in a world where his son is fighting you'd expect Goku to leave that advantage but nope he did what he would have wanted.

In the Buu arc he engaged with Vegeta and purposely dragged the fight out to hatch Buu. Deciding to pin hopes on the fusion technique despite not knowing how said fusion was gonna act. Also decided to waste his precious time left on Earth going SS3 to stall Buu when he actually could have y'know teleported to capsule corp himself convenient that never occurred to anyone. Destroyed the Potara when given a 2nd chance saying Saiyan pride or some shit only to then 5 minutes cry about how they should have defeated Buu as Vegetto? The f**k?

But you're right ignoring warnings and going to his friend the omni king is so much worse than any of this.

[Michsi]

The Goku in Super kinda regressed in his character in comparison to Z in my opinion.
Maybe he needs a bit more drama in his life.
.

Even now I still think that that scene where he goes to remind the Omni King of the tournament to be one of his worst moments. The way he blows off Beerus' warning and even taunts him with the button reminded me so much of a petulant five year old.

He was never this blatantly self-absorbed and reckless in Z.

How? In Z he was constantly like that. Despite Vegeta literally being responsible for the murder of his friends he let him go. He gave Freeza a last chance and didn't finish the job.

He didn't want the Androids to be stopped beforehand despite Trunks warning. He didn't take the heart medicine when Trunks literally told him he was gonna die. He gave Cell a senzu bean for his fight with Gohan not him his son, in a world where his son is fighting you'd expect Goku to leave that advantage but nope he did what he would have wanted.

In the Buu arc he engaged with Vegeta and purposely dragged the fight out to hatch Buu. Deciding to pin hopes on the fusion technique despite not knowing how said fusion was gonna act. Also decided to waste his precious time left on Earth going SS3 to stall Buu when he actually could have y'know teleported to capsule corp himself convenient that never occurred to anyone. Destroyed the Potara when given a 2nd chance saying Saiyan pride or some shit only to then 5 minutes cry about how they should have defeated Buu as Vegetto? The f**k?

But you're right ignoring warnings and going to his friend the omni king is so much worse than any of this.

I am well aware of his behavior in Z, and I am amused of how people seem to think I have forgotten any of those moments (especially since I've been one of the members that have pointed Goku's selfishness in Z years before Super came out ) . Yes, they are different in the way they are framed and how they paint the character. Z treated it very differently, and it's done in a way that highlights a warriors desire for a challenge without thinking of the consequences. Yet despite all of that, I've never thought Goku would be the sort to actively create danger, to actually go against someone warning him not to do something that might put their lives at risk, especially when he himself admits he knows how dangerous the Omni King can be.

In short, Goku destroying the potara strikes me as reckless abandon while in dire straits, while in that Super scene I see him as "nyah-nyah-nyah, I push button."

It's all about presentation.

[SsjCookie]

But you're right ignoring warnings and going to his friend the omni king is so much worse than any of this.

I think the biggest difference between the Goku of Z and Super is that in Z he doesn't intentionally look for trouble.
Danger presents itself and Goku faces it head on.
In Super he instigates the danger intentionally despite him being warned about it.

I think that's very unlike Goku, especially after what happened with the timeline of Future Trunks.
And he comes across as very arrogant by assuming he'll just has to go and win the whole thing, just like that.

[ABED]

I think the biggest difference between the Goku of Z and Super is that in Z he doesn't intentionally look for trouble.

In the Cell arc, Trunks warns him about the cyborgs, and he allows them to be created. He intentionally looked for trouble. While you might argue that trouble came to him, because of the time travel aspect, he could've taken very easy steps to stop it from ever occurring. He's given a warning three years in advance. He let it happen because he wanted to fight.

Mischi, a difference without a distinction is when someone draws an artificial distinction between to things when no real difference exists.

It seems like this behavior bothers a lot of people here. Does it matter as long as it's interesting?

[SsjCookie]

I think the biggest difference between the Goku of Z and Super is that in Z he doesn't intentionally look for trouble.

In the Cell arc, Trunks warns him about the cyborgs, and he allows them to be created. He intentionally looked for trouble.

Should he have killed Dr Gero and the androids before they had done anything wrong then?
Hmm...dilemma.
I can still see the morality of Goku here though.

Mischi, a difference without a distinction is when someone draws an artificial distinction between to things when no real difference exists.

It seems like this behavior bothers a lot of people here. Does it matter as long as it's interesting?

If Goku's behaviour in Super bothers a lot of people, I think one can say it's a legit problem.
Even so, I don't find Goku particularly interesting behaving that way, he changed from someone I liked into someone I don't quite like as much anymore.
I hope that will change in the future.

[ABED]

Does he have to kill Dr. Gero to stop him? The Cyborgs hadn't been completed yet. If he wanted, he could've stopped it before a single punch was thrown.

I can still see the morality of Goku here.

Goku's line about Gero not having done anything wrong was a flippant rationalization.

If Goku's behaviour in Super bothers a lot of people, I think one can say it's a legit problem.
Even so, I don't find Goku particularly interesting behaving that way, he changed from someone I liked into someone I don't quite like as much anymore.
I hope that will change in the future.

No story requires the protagonist to be a good person for the story to be interesting. A great deal many stories are about characters that do morally abhorant things. DB has never been a superhero story.