The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

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Re: The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

Post by Michsi » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:40 am

ABED wrote:
I can still see the morality of Goku here.
Goku's line about Gero not having done anything wrong was a flippant rationalization.
.
But it was there. Toriyama still added that bit of dialog for a reason. Yes, a commonsensical person would never see it as that, but that's Goku.

Goku displays regret after he lets Vegeta go, we know he believes Piccolo Jr was never as evil as his father and there was Kami's life to consider as well - the original put some effort in cushioning his selfish attitude, in Super it's rampant.

Both version of Goku have him be reckless, but the way they go about portraying that side of his character is different.

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Re: The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

Post by ABED » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:50 am

Michsi wrote:
ABED wrote:
I can still see the morality of Goku here.
Goku's line about Gero not having done anything wrong was a flippant rationalization.
.
But it was there. Toriyama still added that bit of dialog for a reason. Yes, a commonsensical person would never see it as that, but that's Goku.

Goku displays regret after he lets Vegeta go, we know he believes Piccolo Jr was never as evil as his father and there was Kami's life to consider as well - the original put some effort in cushioning his selfish attitude, in Super it's rampant.

Both version of Goku have him be reckless, but the way they go about portraying that side of his character is different.
Regardless if I agree with your assessment or not, the big question is why does his recklessness bothers you?
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Re: The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

Post by Cipher » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:30 am

I legitimately do not understand the "favorite character" character-specific-cheerleading, especially in a way that impacts enjoyment of, or discussion surrounding, the series.

Like, I apparently look at it all the time online and I still can't believe it's a thing. You couldn't present a more alien way of interacting with a series or piece of fiction to me if you tried. This isn't pay-per-view sports. Just let it tell its story, for better or worse, and position the characters as it needs.

If you have ever written, "I didn't like X episode/arc because X character didn't do well enough/didn't get to do enough," removed from what stands to benefit the overall story, as a serious complaint, I literally do not understand you.

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Re: The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

Post by Michsi » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:41 am

ABED wrote:
Michsi wrote:
ABED wrote:
Goku's line about Gero not having done anything wrong was a flippant rationalization.
.
But it was there. Toriyama still added that bit of dialog for a reason. Yes, a commonsensical person would never see it as that, but that's Goku.

Goku displays regret after he lets Vegeta go, we know he believes Piccolo Jr was never as evil as his father and there was Kami's life to consider as well - the original put some effort in cushioning his selfish attitude, in Super it's rampant.

Both version of Goku have him be reckless, but the way they go about portraying that side of his character is different.
Regardless if I agree with your assessment or not, the big question is why does his recklessness bothers you?
Because it's annoying. Z also had a lot else to offer to compensate for aspects you might not like, Super has less of that so annoying things tend to irritate just a little bit more. You can have the same idea -adrenaline junkie that doesn't think about consequences- but present it differently. It always comes down to execution.
Cipher wrote:I legitimately do not understand the "favorite character" character-specific-cheerleading, especially in a way that impacts enjoyment of, or discussion surrounding, the series.

Like, I apparently look at it all the time online and I still can't believe it's a thing. You couldn't present a more alien way of interacting with a series or piece of fiction to me if you tried. This isn't pay-per-view sports. Just let it tell its story, for better or worse, and position the characters as it needs.

If you have ever written, "I didn't like X episode/arc because X character didn't do well enough/didn't get to do enough," as a serious complaint, I literally do not understand you.
I'm the opposite. I mean, I can understand caring more about how the story unfolds than the characters and their role, but I totally get being really attached to one or two specific characters so much so that they represent 80% of the reason you even watch a show. Sadly though, it generally happens when the story itself isn't as intriguing or exciting, so you latch on to the characters instead. I had shows that I legitimately loved for they story, but quality decreased after I while and I stuck around because of the characters. Had those characters been killed off, I would've had nothing left to enjoy from that show and would've dropped it.

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Re: The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

Post by ABED » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:48 am

I get your point Cipher, but everyone has their favorite characters and it's not always apparent that an episode wouldn't benefit from having more of that character. Maybe I'm reading you wrong. A more concrete example might help.
Because it's annoying. Z also had a lot else to offer to compensate for aspects you might not like, Super has less of that so annoying things tend to irritate just a little bit more. You can have the same idea -adrenaline junkie that doesn't think about consequences- but present it differently. It always comes down to execution.
What aspects don't you like? Goku puts battle above pretty much all else, but that's the character. I don't see it as a matter of other elements compensating for Goku's shortsightedness. I find his behavior interesting, regardless of whether I agree with his decisions.
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Re: The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

Post by Michsi » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:58 am

ABED wrote: What aspects don't you like? Goku puts battle above pretty much all else, but that's the character.
All I can say is that I liked, or at least tolerated in certain cases, Goku's behaviour in Z, and don't in Super, specifically when it comes to that scene.

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Re: The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

Post by ABED » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:09 am

What I'm getting at is why you frame it as something you tolerate. Do you ever watch movies or TV shows with immoral or amoral protagonists?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

Post by Michsi » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:21 am

ABED wrote:What I'm getting at is why you frame it as something you tolerate. Do you ever watch movies or TV shows with immoral or amoral protagonists?
What?

And yes I do watch such shows. A lot.

Let's not start a debate where there is literally nothing to discuss and is off topic anyway.

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Re: The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

Post by ABED » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:39 am

Michsi wrote:
ABED wrote:What I'm getting at is why you frame it as something you tolerate. Do you ever watch movies or TV shows with immoral or amoral protagonists?
What?

And yes I do watch such shows. A lot.

Let's not start a debate where there is literally nothing to discuss and is off topic anyway.
What was unclear?

I'm trying to understand why Goku doing those sorts of things bothers you. Is it that he's doing immoral things or that you don't find them interesting?

I think changing protagonists this deep into the series would be a big mistake and historically, the story isn't an ensemble, which doesn't preclude giving the supporting characters interesting things to do, but I don't think making it an ensemble is the fix the show needs.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

Post by SsjCookie » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:44 am

ABED wrote:What I'm getting at is why you frame it as something you tolerate. Do you ever watch movies or TV shows with immoral or amoral protagonists?
I think it's all a question of personal taste, on how certain characters evolve.
I mean, In the case of Goku I know some Goku fans who literally say that Goku is no longer their favourite character anymore.
Hell, one of my friends actually reverted to being a Vegeta fan because of Super, and he used to HATE Vegeta.
You like Goku in Super, many people do, but there are also those who didn't like how his character evolved.

That's just how it is.

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Re: The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

Post by ABED » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:50 am

SsjCookie wrote:
ABED wrote:What I'm getting at is why you frame it as something you tolerate. Do you ever watch movies or TV shows with immoral or amoral protagonists?
I think it's all a question of personal taste, on how certain characters evolve.
I mean, In the case of Goku I know some Goku fans who literally say that Goku is no longer their favourite character anymore.
Hell, one of my friends actually reverted to being a Vegeta fan because of Super, and he used to HATE Vegeta.
You like Goku in Super, many people do, but there are also those who didn't like how his character evolved.

That's just how it is.
This isn't about Super in particular, I continually read how people dislike the character because he's reckless. I think many still have the perception that it's a story where super strong martial artists defeat super strong evil beings that threaten the world. I don't think the character has changed, I think the stakes have changed. Instead of a city or the world, it's now universes, which is why his behavior is more apparent.

Many of them liked seeing Goku pass the torch as "Earth's protector" to Gohan, but that wasn't what Goku was and it would've become a very different story if Toriyama had made the switch.
Last edited by ABED on Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

Post by Lightdasher » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:51 am

This topic kinda' branched from the intended path, huh?

Giving my two cents on the Goku talk, I will say that I don't think his character has really changed from Z to Super. At least.., not in the main scheme of things. I do think, for Super's anime, he seems much more ignorant generally. I'm sure it's done for comedic effect usually, but it's jarring to me. Still, if its target audience likes it, it's hard for me to be against that. I do appreciate that, from what I've seen, the manga portrays him more modestly in this regard; he's aware that he's not the smartest guy around, but he doesn't appear to be a super powerful avatar of the typical class dunce outside of martial arts. I prefer this portrayal because, while Goku hasn't changed much from DB to Super (something I actually prefer.., not every character needs dense development, right?), it's easier to believe that this manga's Goku carries with him all his past experience and knowledge. Meanwhile, the anime's Goku often seems like the clueless Goku from Dragon Ball again, as though he's regressed; it was way understandable back then of any wild boy growing in the woods to be as such, now it seems his adult iteration lacks the mental capacity to retain understanding of matters unrelated to fighting that he's likely already learned. Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't feel Goku's an idiot, so it's a bit bothersome to see him portrayed as one completely.

That said, he has been shown to be pretty selfish for the sake of fighting, even in Z. These examples have already been given, but I don't think we should just gloss over them. Perhaps him taking inaction towards Trunks' premonition of the androids was very similar to him being the cause of the ToP against the warnings of Lord Beerus, even if the magnitude for the stakes are on different scales. Personally, I'm fine with Goku being this way; it's just him being himself and being very enticed for a fight, even if it could lead to his downfall. I think it's my own human empathy that finds disgust in the likes of Goku and Vegeta endangering everyone for their own fight lust, but I enjoy it as a unique saiyan trait even more; it feels outstanding that this warrior race would take the joy of fighting to such extremes.

In response to the original idea presented.. As a Goten fan, I can definitely see where you're coming from, and those words are nice, coming from someone that has already gotten their fan-service. It feels charming, in a "I was able to receive this joy, and I know there are others out there who would like the same joy, so please spread it!" sort of way. I honestly haven't seen much of the Dragon Ball fandom.., Kanzenshuu is the first example where I've been around so many Dragon Ball fans, and I've not even been here very long, so I don't know what the various fans are like really. Because of this, I can't comment on Goku's fans possibly not wanting his spotlight taken away. I haven't even seen all of Super, so scenes like Krillin's contribution within the ToP are blanks to me. However, if there's one thing I do appreciate Super for, it's that we seem to all been given something of a bone, no matter how small (unless you're a fan of, like, Baba or something). You could call me too content or eagerly settled, but I got to see a not-even-one-minute scene of Goten training with Trunks that I love, and I'll gladly take it, along with the other scenes. I understand that most characters aren't really what drive the show, so I think it's fair for me to be content like this. Afterall, surely more Cabba/#18/Vegeta/Vegito/Goten/Whis/etc exposure would jive certain other fans the wrong way (I definitely know of another Goten fan that was probably opening champagne to follow Kefla's fusees getting blasted into the stands), so maybe it's better to just enjoy what we do get of our characters and see how the writers choose to direct the overall story.
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Re: The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

Post by ABED » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:56 am

While it was tangential, I do think the discussion was important to the main point of the thread. Moving Goku out of the main character role changes the DNA of the story. That's a big reason Goku fans such as myself don't want the change. I love the other characters not in spite of their screen time. DB gave them quality moments even with Goku firmly entrenched as the main character.
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Re: The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

Post by Michsi » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:06 am

As I said once before, dividing screen-time is in many ways a zero-sum game. The more one has, the less the others get. Though personally, I think quality and impact of the scenes you are given count more than how many you have, but there's a problem there too.

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Re: The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

Post by ABED » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:14 am

True, but it's a serialized story in TV and manga so it has the real estate to give the characters their due. It's not like a film where it has 2-3 hours to tell a story with a huge cast. So sure, others get less, but even in ensemble casts there's always someone getting more focus. And as you say, it's not about quantity as much as quality.

I wouldn't frame it as zero-sum. It's about selectivity and putting the time and focus on what's most important because there are always tradeoffs.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

Post by SsjCookie » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:38 am

Lightdasher wrote:This topic kinda' branched from the intended path, huh?

Giving my two cents on the Goku talk, I will say that I don't think his character has really changed from Z to Super. At least.., not in the main scheme of things. I do think, for Super's anime, he seems much more ignorant generally. I'm sure it's done for comedic effect usually, but it's jarring to me. Still, if its target audience likes it, it's hard for me to be against that. I do appreciate that, from what I've seen, the manga portrays him more modestly in this regard; he's aware that he's not the smartest guy around, but he doesn't appear to be a super powerful avatar of the typical class dunce outside of martial arts. I prefer this portrayal because, while Goku hasn't changed much from DB to Super (something I actually prefer.., not every character needs dense development, right?), it's easier to believe that this manga's Goku carries with him all his past experience and knowledge. Meanwhile, the anime's Goku often seems like the clueless Goku from Dragon Ball again, as though he's regressed; it was way understandable back then of any wild boy growing in the woods to be as such, now it seems his adult iteration lacks the mental capacity to retain understanding of matters unrelated to fighting that he's likely already learned. Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't feel Goku's an idiot, so it's a bit bothersome to see him portrayed as one completely.

That said, he has been shown to be pretty selfish for the sake of fighting, even in Z. These examples have already been given, but I don't think we should just gloss over them. Perhaps him taking inaction towards Trunks' premonition of the androids was very similar to him being the cause of the ToP against the warnings of Lord Beerus, even if the magnitude for the stakes are on different scales. Personally, I'm fine with Goku being this way; it's just him being himself and being very enticed for a fight, even if it could lead to his downfall. I think it's my own human empathy that finds disgust in the likes of Goku and Vegeta endangering everyone for their own fight lust, but I enjoy it as a unique saiyan trait even more; it feels outstanding that this warrior race would take the joy of fighting to such extremes.

In response to the original idea presented.. As a Goten fan, I can definitely see where you're coming from, and those words are nice, coming from someone that has already gotten their fan-service. It feels charming, in a "I was able to receive this joy, and I know there are others out there who would like the same joy, so please spread it!" sort of way. I honestly haven't seen much of the Dragon Ball fandom.., Kanzenshuu is the first example where I've been around so many Dragon Ball fans, and I've not even been here very long, so I don't know what the various fans are like really. Because of this, I can't comment on Goku's fans possibly not wanting his spotlight taken away. I haven't even seen all of Super, so scenes like Krillin's contribution within the ToP are blanks to me. However, if there's one thing I do appreciate Super for, it's that we seem to all been given something of a bone, no matter how small (unless you're a fan of, like, Baba or something). You could call me too content or eagerly settled, but I got to see a not-even-one-minute scene of Goten training with Trunks that I love, and I'll gladly take it, along with the other scenes. I understand that most characters aren't really what drive the show, so I think it's fair for me to be content like this. Afterall, surely more Cabba/#18/Vegeta/Vegito/Goten/Whis/etc exposure would jive certain other fans the wrong way (I definitely know of another Goten fan that was probably opening champagne to follow Kefla's fusees getting blasted into the stands), so maybe it's better to just enjoy what we do get of our characters and see how the writers choose to direct the overall story.

Ha ha yeah this topic kinda strayed, and as much as I like to discuss the issue of Goku, I'd like to go back on my original post. :wink:

You're right, Goten is just one of those characters who barely had any development throughout the whole show.
Even though he's not my favourite character I'd love to see him getting a more important role in the future.
What I meant by selfish fandom is when that when people say "I don't like to see that particular character getting any screentime at all" which annoys me with how selfish they are.

For instance, as a future Trunks fan I was very happy with his arc.
And then you have some people saying, "I wish he'd stayed away because he''ll take up precious screentime from MY favourite character".
I'm not like that, and can appreciate any character in the show even though they're not my favourite.
I don't mind seeing Goten or Piccolo having their own arc sometime in the future.
Future Trunks had one, why not them?

And of course Goku can still be the main character.

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Re: The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

Post by ABED » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:08 am

And then you have some people saying, "I wish he'd stayed away because he''ll take up precious screentime from MY favourite character".
I'm not like that, and can appreciate any character in the show even though they're not my favourite.
But that's not wrong. I understand where you're coming from, but can't you see why either someone would want less of something they don't want OR they felt Trunks' character and story got closure and wish the series went in a different direction?
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Re: The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:43 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:[
How? In Z he was constantly like that. Despite Vegeta literally being responsible for the murder of his friends he let him go. He gave Freeza a last chance and didn't finish the job.

He didn't want the Androids to be stopped beforehand despite Trunks warning. He didn't take the heart medicine when Trunks literally told him he was gonna die. He gave Cell a senzu bean for his fight with Gohan not him his son, in a world where his son is fighting you'd expect Goku to leave that advantage but nope he did what he would have wanted.

In the Buu arc he engaged with Vegeta and purposely dragged the fight out to hatch Buu. Deciding to pin hopes on the fusion technique despite not knowing how said fusion was gonna act. Also decided to waste his precious time left on Earth going SS3 to stall Buu when he actually could have y'know teleported to capsule corp himself convenient that never occurred to anyone. Destroyed the Potara when given a 2nd chance saying Saiyan pride or some shit only to then 5 minutes cry about how they should have defeated Buu as Vegetto? The f**k?

But you're right ignoring warnings and going to his friend the omni king is so much worse than any of this.
Letting Vegeta live was selfish but Goku acknowledged it was selfish. His Saiyan instincts simply got the better of him and he didn't think things through. He regretted it later on.

He wasn't exactly himself when he sparred Freeza and he only did it out of pity.

At least, he had the sense to prepare for the androids. The Z-Warriors only got killed because they were unprepared and they need a common enemy to keep Vegeta at bay.

Goku feeding Cell senzu changed practically nothing. He wanted Gohan to face Cell with full confidence as he knew his boy could've easily destroyed Cell. His only real flaw was not telling Gohan or anyone of his plan.

He had no choice but to engage with Vegeta and he didn't wanna make things worse with him going SSJ3 plus it took time from him being on Earth.

Majin Boo was seconds away from blowing up all of West City so they needed someone to distract him in order to get the radar.

He destroyed the ring out of respect for Vegeta plus he didn't really need it against Kid Boo. In hindsight, this proved false but SSJ3 was strong enough to beat him.

Yes, it is worse because even after realizing his mistake, he acts like he doesn't give a fuck nor does he try to take responsibility for his actions. Sure in Z he made dumb, selfish decisions but then it was more due to his naivety and compassion than him just being a selfish idiot. He also knew when to get serious unlike in Super.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

Post by Gligarman » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:55 pm

If we're talking selfish desires I'm still salty about the fact that Goku Black didn't turn out to be Goten. That's mainly because Goten has been oddly absent throughout the majority of Super.

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Re: The selfishness of the Dragonball fandom

Post by floofychan333 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:14 pm

GamerSkull wrote:
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:I wonder if Toriyama could genuinely figure out a way to make, say, Yamcha relevant...without people then whining, "HE'S TOO WEAK! ITS NOT REALISTIC FOR HIM TO DO ANYTHING"
But strangely, people are probably okay with Roshi being able to contend in the ToP.... and fight off Freeza soldiers.
I think that's reflected by fan opinion. Most of the fanbase (myself included though I do still like Yamcha) makes fun of Yamcha and don't really see much need for him anymore. Roshi, however, remains a fan favourite (as well as not having any cringy incidents where people make fun of him, other than his perverted bullshit) and after minimal use at best after Dragon Ball ended, fans wanted more of Roshi. Yamcha could be viewed as more of an overused and past-his-prime hanger-on while Roshi may be viewed as a background character who fans want to be more active. Of course, I find Roshi's resurgence, while it displays nostalgia and therefore makes me smile a little inside, to be somewhat hard to believe.
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