The biasness against Toei is unreal!

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Professor Freeza
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:21 am

The biasness against Toei is unreal!

Post by Professor Freeza » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:42 pm

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=41501

So here its said that Jiren is 100% Toriyama. Yet people still hate on Toei for Jiren's supposed "awful execution". What awful execution? They clearly did what Toriyama told them to. Silent, doesnt talk. Toriyama even wrote the backstory which some people hated. They were bashing toei and even after this info they are still doing it.

Manga Jiren is better? How is Manga Jiren better? He started talking right off the bat which doesnt give him any sort of mystery. Also some say Manga Jiren is closer to the real one. How? You are basing that on what? A guy who gave Vegeta SSG for no damn reason? If Toriyama wanted Vegeta to get SSG he would have gotten it in the anime too. So thats a significant change which Toyotaro made from Toriyama. Its almost guaranteed that Toyotaro did the same thing with Jiren.

People just love blaming everything on Toei. Guess what... You are getting DB after '97 BECAUSE of Toei. Toei pushed for a DB Renaissance since before Kai. They wanted new villains for Video games so Toriyama made outlines for DB Online, Heroes which are still used for Xenoverse. Toriyama dropped the series for good yet its Toei who kept the nostalgia alive.

Yes Toei are also an awful bunch at times but some of the best episodes of Super are the slice of life stories which TOEI did. Show some respect and stop the blind hatred.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!

Post by Doctor. » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:22 pm

If it means anything, I think both versions of Super are bad and Toriyama's plot points are mostly terrible.

User avatar
Hawk9211
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 812
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:23 am

Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!

Post by Hawk9211 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:27 pm

Fans hate toei in general whether the reasons are valid or not:Saint seiya fans,sailor moon fans,one piece fans,toriko fans and toei was even more hated by dragon ball fans before super.
Doctor. wrote:If it means anything, I think both versions of Super are bad and Toriyama's plot points are mostly terrible.
They are not terrible content wise,but they are vague as hell which lead to so much differences.For better or worse,toriyama only gave a vague outline and left the execution on toyotaro and toei.He even encourages toyotaro to do his thing,so if you ask me execution blame should be on both toei and toyotaro.
Now,if be should write more details is another issue.
Why power levels are important?
The genre and roots of dragon ball

User avatar
OhHiRenan
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 296
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:44 pm
Location: MA
Contact:

Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!

Post by OhHiRenan » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:44 pm

I get where you’re coming from, but a character like Jiren absolutely could have been a compelling character with the right execution. Quiet, stoic, and strong aren’t inherently bad traits. Some of the most interesting characters in fiction are primarily stoic and guarded.

User avatar
PsionicWarrior
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1569
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 2:33 pm

Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:46 pm

Maybe it is just the manga format that fits better the rhythm for such a tournament. I do appreciate the manga much more than the anime, but that is mostly because I sometimes feel like the anime just needs to fill screentime or simply doesn't seem to get the bigger scope. I know it can appear to be silly to bitch on some details like a one line from some character or a follow-up that seem like a puzzle piece not fitting the rest of the puzzle, but details are important, details are everything on the narrative. I may be wrong but I doubt people growing up with Super today will get the same impact as us growing up with DB and/or Z, only time will tell if decades later they still argue about.
I don't feel like I am biased against Toei, when they make things right I do defend them, some of the criticism can be unfair but on the long run I find really a lot of problems in the ToP arc. Let me bring you one the loudest example of Toei doing things right in this arc on a matter I could be easily biased with: Ribrianne. I freaking hated Ribrianne, yet, the episode where U2 gets erased, they made me cared about her. Even if all the previous episodes I really hated her with a vengeance. This is execution. UI direction has always worked too. Super has been such an emotional elevator to me it is hard right this moment not to feel skeptical on anything now, so many promises not fullfilled, so many great ideas that just didn't reach my heart, such a waste tbh.

About your thread, like I said, you claim 'Jiren is 100% Toriyama' while all he did was two lines script then told Toei to deal with it. You can blame Toriyama for not being invested enough, but the decisions Toei make and the way they tell us stories is on them.

User avatar
Kamiccolo9
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10352
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:32 pm
Location: Regensburg, Germany

Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:55 pm

"Biasness" isn't a word.
Champion of the 1st Kanzenshuu Short Story Tenkaichi Budokai
Kamiccolo9's Kompendium of Short Stories
Cipher wrote:If Vegeta does not kill Gohan, I will stop illegally streaming the series.
Malik_DBNA wrote:
Scarz wrote:Malik, stop. People are asking me for lewd art of possessed Bra (with Vegeta).
"Achievement Unlocked: Rule 34"

User avatar
VegettoEX
Kanzenshuu Co-Owner & Administrator
Posts: 17541
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!

Post by VegettoEX » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:02 pm

Rather than simply complain about others' opinions, it would be more productive and in the spirit of our community guidelines to actually explain what it is that you like, what it is that you dislike, and the reasons behind that.

As it stands, what you're essentially saying is "Everyone else is hypocritical because ________"... without actually providing a realistic baseline for that. People are allowed to like or dislike things with or without Toriyama's involvement, and do not need your permission one way or the other.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:"Biasness" isn't a word.
Also this. It helps your arguments when you use the correct words to frame them.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

User avatar
The gr
I Live Here
Posts: 2856
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:58 pm

Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!

Post by The gr » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:06 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:"Biasness" isn't a word.
Then what word is better suited for this professor Kamiccolo9.
    I will agree that is annoying that people bash at toei even for the stupidest thing but people are forgetting they made character like Hit, Zamasu and Black way better than what Toyotaro did.
      However I disagree on manga Jiren part,he has an established mystery about his wish, I prefer this over his strength mystery.
      Last edited by The gr on Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
      Mostly active on discord.

      User avatar
      OhHiRenan
      Beyond Newbie
      Posts: 296
      Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:44 pm
      Location: MA
      Contact:

      Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!

      Post by OhHiRenan » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:11 pm

      The gr wrote:
      Kamiccolo9 wrote:"Biasness" isn't a word.
      Then what word is better suited for this professor Kamiccolo9.
        I will agree that is annoying that people bash at toei even for the stupidest thing but people are forgetting they made character like Hit, Zamasu and Black way better than what Toyotaro did.
          However I disagree on manga Jiren part,he has an established mystery about his wish, I prefer this over his strength.
          Just use “bias.”

          User avatar
          Professor Freeza
          Temporarily Banned
          Posts: 449
          Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:21 am

          Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!

          Post by Professor Freeza » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:30 pm

          OhHiRenan wrote:
          The gr wrote:
          Kamiccolo9 wrote:"Biasness" isn't a word.
          Then what word is better suited for this professor Kamiccolo9.
            I will agree that is annoying that people bash at toei even for the stupidest thing but people are forgetting they made character like Hit, Zamasu and Black way better than what Toyotaro did.
              However I disagree on manga Jiren part,he has an established mystery about his wish, I prefer this over his strength.
              Just use “bias.”
              VegettoEX wrote:Rather than simply complain about others' opinions, it would be more productive and in the spirit of our community guidelines to actually explain what it is that you like, what it is that you dislike, and the reasons behind that.

              As it stands, what you're essentially saying is "Everyone else is hypocritical because ________"... without actually providing a realistic baseline for that. People are allowed to like or dislike things with or without Toriyama's involvement, and do not need your permission one way or the other.
              Kamiccolo9 wrote:"Biasness" isn't a word.
              Also this. It helps your arguments when you use the correct words to frame them.
              https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... h/biasness

              User avatar
              Kamiccolo9
              Namekian Warrior
              Posts: 10352
              Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:32 pm
              Location: Regensburg, Germany

              Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!

              Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:16 pm

              Do a little more research, and you'll find that the word is only included because it is a commonly misused deformed version of the word "bias," used mainly by non-English speakers who don't know any better. Also note that that site is practically the only dictionary to include "biasness," because, again, it makes a habit of including words that non-native speakers often misuse.

              But if you want to use made up words, more power to you.

              And, even more, if you insist on using it, the definition in that link has nothing to do with what you are complaining about. "An indirectness in speech or conduct," doesn't really have anything to do with Toriyama's perceived influence on the franchise.
              Champion of the 1st Kanzenshuu Short Story Tenkaichi Budokai
              Kamiccolo9's Kompendium of Short Stories
              Cipher wrote:If Vegeta does not kill Gohan, I will stop illegally streaming the series.
              Malik_DBNA wrote:
              Scarz wrote:Malik, stop. People are asking me for lewd art of possessed Bra (with Vegeta).
              "Achievement Unlocked: Rule 34"

              User avatar
              Cure Dragon 255
              Born 'n Bred Here
              Posts: 5102
              Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 5:23 pm

              Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!

              Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:28 pm

              Its NOT a made up word... but it does NOT mean the same thing as bias.

              Biasness:

              noun
              an indirectness in speech or conduct


              While Bias is a...


              1. variable noun
              Bias is a tendency to prefer one person or thing to another, and to favour that person or thing.
              Bias against women permeates every level of the judicial system.
              There were fierce attacks on the BBC for alleged political bias.
              Synonyms: prejudice, leaning, bent, tendency More Synonyms of bias
              2. variable noun
              Bias is a concern with or interest in one thing more than others.
              The Department has a strong bias towards neuroscience.
              3. verb
              To bias someone means to influence them in favour of a particular choice.
              We mustn't allow it to bias our teaching. [VERB noun]
              Synonyms: influence, colour, weight, prejudice More Synonyms of bias
              4.
              on the bias
              More Synonyms o

              So please make sure you practice your english if you want to be taken seriously topic creator. ALSO BIG THANK YOU FOR ALL THOSE WHO CORRECTED THE TOPIC CREATOR! Bad english really gets on my nerves.
              Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

              This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
              90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

              User avatar
              Kamiccolo9
              Namekian Warrior
              Posts: 10352
              Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:32 pm
              Location: Regensburg, Germany

              Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!

              Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:33 pm

              Cure Dragon 255 wrote:Its NOT a made up word... but it does NOT mean the same thing as bias.
              It literally is a made-up word. The Collins English Dictionary is the only dictionary to include it, and it is famous for including made-up popular or mistaken vernacular. A few years ago, they promoted the release of a new edition that included textspeek (lol, ikr, iirc, etc.), "adorkable," and more. It's claim to fame is being the "largest single volume dictionary" which they do by throwing in literally everything that someone has ever said, regardless of whether it was an actual word or not.
              Champion of the 1st Kanzenshuu Short Story Tenkaichi Budokai
              Kamiccolo9's Kompendium of Short Stories
              Cipher wrote:If Vegeta does not kill Gohan, I will stop illegally streaming the series.
              Malik_DBNA wrote:
              Scarz wrote:Malik, stop. People are asking me for lewd art of possessed Bra (with Vegeta).
              "Achievement Unlocked: Rule 34"

              User avatar
              Logania
              Regular
              Posts: 593
              Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:47 am

              Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!

              Post by Logania » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:21 pm

              Class is in session I suppose. Came to see people defending/lashing out at Toei but I see grammar battles lol

              Toei has done a lot of good to me with the filler episodes, showing the slice of life and development of characters. Without them I wouldn't like Hit so much as I do, but my main issue with Super dealing with Toei isn't the story or characterization, it's the visuals and animation and that applies to really all Toei anime adaptations sadly (mainly One Piece, holy crap.)
              "I can't increase my ability through some kind of noisy transformation the way Frost and you Saiyans do. If I wanna become more lethal, I don't have the luxury of cutting corners, I just have to do it the old-fashioned way.

              Combat is craft. What matters most is not raw power, but the skill by which you hone it."

              User avatar
              Zephyr
              I Live Here
              Posts: 4021
              Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:20 pm

              Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!

              Post by Zephyr » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:07 pm

              Professor Freeza wrote: People just love blaming everything on Toei. Guess what... You are getting DB after '97 BECAUSE of Toei.
              I might be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure you're confusing Toei for Shueisha (and Bandai).
              Professor Freeza wrote:So here its said that Jiren is 100% Toriyama. Yet people still hate on Toei for Jiren's supposed "awful execution". What awful execution?
              Professor Freeza wrote: Manga Jiren is better? How is Manga Jiren better? He started talking right off the bat which doesnt give him any sort of mystery. Also some say Manga Jiren is closer to the real one. How? You are basing that on what? A guy who gave Vegeta SSG for no damn reason? If Toriyama wanted Vegeta to get SSG he would have gotten it in the anime too. So thats a significant change which Toyotaro made from Toriyama. Its almost guaranteed that Toyotaro did the same thing with Jiren.
              Not sure why you made a new thread just to make the same point, and ignore replies made to it. So I'll repost my thoughts from said thread:

              [spoiler]
              Zephyr wrote:I think it's definitely an execution problem.

              Toriyama gave Toei enough to work with, they just didn't take advantage of it, at least not when it was optimal. There's nothing wrong with him being a strong silent type throughout the tournament. The problem is when we know absolutely nothing about him or his motivations at the same time, then there's nothing to care about in the foreground or the background. The manga was smart enough to seed some of his motivations early on, so even if he's generically stoic throughout, we know for certain the whole time that there's a person behind it, a clash of interests and goals (besides the obvious goals of victory and survival).
              [/spoiler]

              The manga still allows for some mystery. We know Jiren has goals and motivations that Belmod is tugging on in order to get Jiren to participate, but don't know anything beyond that. In the anime, up until near the very end of the tournament, where we hear his back story, the mystery we have is: is he even a person with motives and goals? Now, that could be a cool mystery, but that's apparently not what they were going for.

              User avatar
              Akyon
              Regular
              Posts: 722
              Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:02 am

              Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!

              Post by Akyon » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:39 pm

              It does seem a little unfair. Whilst Toei do a lot of questionable things in Super(a lot of loose threads with no payoff), it does sound like Toriyama's 'notes' are basically not much to go on. The end result was always going to vary drastically from Toriyama's idea in his head if the notes are really as uninformative and scrappily put together as we're lead to believe.

              Mostly everyone has said they've enjoyed the slice of life episodes, which(and please correct me if I'm wrong) are indeed all Toei's own work? If so, they're doing something right at least...
              Favourite User quote:
              Vice wrote:"Look at all these characters getting some shine in the buildup for the tournament of power, maybe we'll get to see some other characters do some stuff instead of the same old shit."
              1. Goku (Universe 7) has eliminated 6 competitor & Vegeta (Universe 7) has eliminated 6 competitors


              "Fuck."

              User avatar
              emperior
              I Live Here
              Posts: 4322
              Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:52 pm
              Location: Dragon World
              Contact:

              Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!

              Post by emperior » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:36 am

              The real problem is that Toriyama's short notes and wishes tie Toei's hands. They can't do many interesting things with most of the characters because Toriyama has a specific idea about those characters, yet that idea is very vague and isn't expanded upon.
              "Jiren is a character who doesn't speak. Take this backstory of his". What could Toei realistically do with a character like that?
              Toriyama should have a more hands-on approach in my opinion, but maybe he is actually perfectly fine with Jiren's depiction so ultimately the way the character is, it's Toriyama's fault.
              And I agree how fans always bash Toei while Toriyama gets none of it. He too is responsible for Super's writing.
              悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”

              What I consider canonical

              User avatar
              Baggie_Saiyan
              Namekian Warrior
              Posts: 10283
              Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:22 pm
              Location: Atlantis.

              Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!

              Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:54 am

              emperior wrote:The real problem is that Toriyama's short notes and wishes tie Toei's hands. They can't do many interesting things with most of the characters because Toriyama has a specific idea about those characters, yet that idea is very vague and isn't expanded upon.
              "Jiren is a character who doesn't speak. Take this backstory of his". What could Toei realistically do with a character like that?
              Toriyama should have a more hands-on approach in my opinion, but maybe he is actually perfectly fine with Jiren's depiction so ultimately the way the character is, it's Toriyama's fault.
              And I agree how fans always bash Toei while Toriyama gets none of it. He too is responsible for Super's writing.
              Toei have to turn is basic notes into fully fledged episodes and importantly come up with fights themselves, hire script writers, coordinate animation staff, hire and cast voice actors. Hell Nakamura even but his own money into DBS!

              Meanwhile Toriyama sits there writing basic notes like:
              .80 fighters fighting in a tournament it's messy.

              And then has to the cheek to toss out unispirational garbage, Dyspo looking like a bootleg Beerus and then UI being a retrace of SSG despite saying UI was different to SS transformation.

              Instead some fans sit there bash Toei and Toyo too and say but x, y or z wasn't "Toriyama's vision" like Toriyama is writing the manga still. The man writes basic notes as seen above if he truly cared he'd be back writing the manga, but instead despite already having it easy he's still cutting corners.

              User avatar
              coola
              I Live Here
              Posts: 3360
              Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 7:33 am
              Location: Poland

              Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!

              Post by coola » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:47 am

              Well, Toei give me quite few reasons to not like higher-ups that ar responsible for decisions there, they have opinion of cheapskates, and that everything that is not Dragon Ball (Past RoF)/One Piece/Precure, is treated like not important, but problem is, they produce way too many shows every season, so every time one or two shows will suffer because of it
              Lets compare Kanon:

              Toei
              http://i.imgur.com/t6QnZi1.jpg
              Kyoto Animation
              http://www.baka-raptor.com/wp-content/u ... ayuin7.jpg

              As for Super, well, like someone once said, too many cooks spoil the brooch. Because there are too many scenarists, we have BS like Piccolo getting throw from rings, becasue he didnt hear his opponent :roll: Or 17 tring to beat Toppo, by throwing rocks :) Next series should have less scenarists, maybe then characters will act less OOC in some episodes.
              Last edited by coola on Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
              My Twitter: @kamil198811
              Bulma fan
              Thanks to Discotek:
              Magic Knight Rayearth get DVD release in 2015 and Blu-Ray release on 2016
              Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas get DVD release in 2015

              User avatar
              dbgtFO
              Kicks it Old-School
              Posts: 7888
              Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:07 pm
              Contact:

              Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!

              Post by dbgtFO » Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:01 am

              That site does not allow hotlinking. All we get is a sarcastic text image, where they frown upon someone hotlinking to the site without permission.

              Post Reply