If Toyo could make it right why is Toei missing the mark that hard?emperior wrote: "Jiren is a character who doesn't speak. Take this backstory of his". What could Toei realistically do with a character like that?
The biasness against Toei is unreal!
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Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!
Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!
I feel like in any circle that isn't the Dragon Ball fandom, blaming the quality of the final product of a movie/show on the person who wrote its treatment is a completely baffling thing to do. I'll admit to finding Toei's initial concept of a larger-than-life, justice-loving Jiren a lot more entertaining in the context of a series like this, but it's... not like a quiet, stoic character is some irredeemably boring concept? Never mind the huge amount of famous literary and movie characters that fit that archetype - even in another version of this very arc Toyotaro's does just fine making Jiren like this while still making him, y'know, a character, as has been pointed out earlier in this thread. The TV version has dedicated so much time to Jiren and yet it's only just now made even the slightest attempt of giving him motivation and a personality, neither of which feel reconcilable with who he was before episode 127. I genuinely just assumed that backstory was a super late addition in an attempt to assuage complaints that Jiren was boring, but the fact they've had that up their sleeve since the beginning of the arc and made the decision to deploy it right at the very end, through a clunky, out-of-place and melodramatic monologue from Belmod? Like above all else, that's the best method they could come up with to deliver that information to the audience? God, this arc is a mess. Without all the details I don't feel 100% comfortable laying the blame at the feet of the writing staff, because through what little behind-the-scenes information we have about this show it's obvious the awful production schedule has loomed large over everyone involved, and I really feel for anyone trying to make a series work in such conditions. But what we do know is that schedule being what it is is the fault of Toei as a corporation and not Toriyama, so I am comfortable blaming them. There may be elements of Toriyama's plot outlines I take umbrage with, but there are others I think are really good too, and I don't think any of them are irredeemably awful at the stage of conception. It's all about how those ideas are executed, which is the part Super's hampered most for me.
Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!
Sorry, didn't notice it doesn't allow hotlinking, i've put different linkdbgtFO wrote:That site does not allow hotlinking. All we get is a sarcastic text image, where they frown upon someone hotlinking to the site without permission.coola wrote: Kyoto Animation
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Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!
There is countless examples on how the manga handles about everything better. Be it with Roshi saying a warrior needs to adapt when in reality he cannot fly (just this and you get what kind of character he is, just two drawings, no need for some weird semi rape scene like they did in the anime), how Goku vs Freeza battle during recruitment was off-screen (again just one picture, blood and ripped clothes sure help), Caulifla being totally badass and how things are sober in Sadala (no silly tingling on the back), Kale being even more badass when Cabba was showing off SSJ to Caulifla, this is how you instantly understand characters are strong and how you tease them, how one picture can say a thousand things and be powerfully evocative of epicness, this is DB.infermon wrote:Like above all else, that's the best method they could come up with to deliver that information to the audience? God, this arc is a mess.
Etc really, if one doesn't understand the complaints about Toei and what they do with the anime, he should have a look at the manga which quality is leagues ahead in just about every aspect.
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Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!
You people are just proving my point
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Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!
'Biasness' isn't a real word but that's already been settled. Now, TOEI does get a lot of crap whether they do something right or not and whether it has the blessing of Toriyama or not, in this case it's very much a slippery slope since the fans are never pleased. If for example Toriyama had created Dragon Ball GT, the fans who detest it would adore it but since it was TOEI who made it, those that loathe it do it mostly for the fact Toriyama's not involved (close-minded folks). I won't even get to the Super aspect of it, not my style.
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Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!
Honestly, I thought he wasn't an actual character, an actual person. I thought that the constant blatant reference to "strength is all he is about" and that beating people is "just what he does" were deliberately super fishy. Like there was obviously something up, and Belmod was up to something. That, to me, at least up until it was falsified, more than justified Jiren seemingly being devoid of personality and motivation.infermon wrote:I genuinely just assumed that backstory was a super late addition in an attempt to assuage complaints that Jiren was boring, but the fact they've had that up their sleeve since the beginning of the arc and made the decision to deploy it right at the very end, through a clunky, out-of-place and melodramatic monologue from Belmod? Like above all else, that's the best method they could come up with to deliver that information to the audience?
Specific rebuttals to specific issues that are being raised might give that point a semblance of legitimacy.Professor Freeza wrote:You people are just proving my point
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Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!
I think that's an oversimplification. Not everything Toriyama did was adored.SuperCyan2 wrote:'Biasness' isn't a real word but that's already been settled. Now, TOEI does get a lot of crap whether they do something right or not and whether it has the blessing of Toriyama or not, in this case it's very much a slippery slope since the fans are never pleased. If for example Toriyama had created Dragon Ball GT, the fans who detest it would adore it but since it was TOEI who made it, those that loathe it do it mostly for the fact Toriyama's not involved (close-minded folks). I won't even get to the Super aspect of it, not my style.
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Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!
Everyone who has posted here has been giving reasons and arguments addressing your provocation (whether agreeing or disagreeing). You reply to none of them and just throw empty lines repeating the same thing over and over. Guess who is biased.Professor Freeza wrote:You people are just proving my point
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Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!
I think Toriyama is not as good as he used to be and should leave Dragon Ball in more capable hands now.... or rather, DB should end. There's no need for unnecessary sequels.
But I feel Toei is also dropping the ball in a lot of aspects. Animation, story, even characterization. So I guess... I might be biased against both!
But I feel Toei is also dropping the ball in a lot of aspects. Animation, story, even characterization. So I guess... I might be biased against both!
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Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!
I think Toriyama is still capable of making good Dragon Ball, but I think he needs someone to collaborate with. Toyotaro is fulfilling that role nicely, and really, I think the Super anime would be a lot better if it was following on from the manga, perhaps in a seasonal format so they don't have to do tons of filler like in the original 1986-1996 run. That way, Toriyama and Toyotaro get to work together to put together the story, so we still get a very Toriyama-esque story, but with Toyotaro's course-corrections and adjustments, and if the show wasn't running all year round, the animation would likely be able to be a lot better.GamerSkull wrote:I think Toriyama is not as good as he used to be and should leave Dragon Ball in more capable hands now.... or rather, DB should end. There's no need for unnecessary sequels.
But I feel Toei is also dropping the ball in a lot of aspects. Animation, story, even characterization. So I guess... I might be biased against both!
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Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!
I just recently bought the first two volumes of manga for Super but I haven't had the chance to sit down and read them yet... so I really can't say much about Toyotarou yet.Robo4900 wrote:I think Toriyama is still capable of making good Dragon Ball, but I think he needs someone to collaborate with. Toyotaro is fulfilling that role nicely, and really, I think the Super anime would be a lot better if it was following on from the manga, perhaps in a seasonal format so they don't have to do tons of filler like in the original 1986-1996 run. That way, Toriyama and Toyotaro get to work together to put together the story, so we still get a very Toriyama-esque story, but with Toyotaro's course-corrections and adjustments, and if the show wasn't running all year round, the animation would likely be able to be a lot better.GamerSkull wrote:I think Toriyama is not as good as he used to be and should leave Dragon Ball in more capable hands now.... or rather, DB should end. There's no need for unnecessary sequels.
But I feel Toei is also dropping the ball in a lot of aspects. Animation, story, even characterization. So I guess... I might be biased against both!
Hopefully, he'll meet my expectations the same way he seems to be for others.
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Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!
Ah, very nice!GamerSkull wrote:I just recently bought the first two volumes of manga for Super but I haven't had the chance to sit down and read them yet... so I really can't say much about Toyotarou yet.
Hopefully, he'll meet my expectations the same way he seems to be for others.
IIRC, the U6 tournament is mostly the same, it's only in the Black arc that things start to change up a bit. I hope you enjoy reading the manga.
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Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!
Thanks. I'm looking forward to it. As someone unimpressed with the Super anime, I'm quite keen to see if the manga fixes up any issues I have with the story. Unfortunately, I'm sad that the slice-of-life stuff has been taken out of the manga since they were by far my favorite episodes of the anime.Robo4900 wrote:Ah, very nice!GamerSkull wrote:I just recently bought the first two volumes of manga for Super but I haven't had the chance to sit down and read them yet... so I really can't say much about Toyotarou yet.
Hopefully, he'll meet my expectations the same way he seems to be for others.
IIRC, the U6 tournament is mostly the same, it's only in the Black arc that things start to change up a bit. I hope you enjoy reading the manga.
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Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!
Both parties are at fault. With Super taking a year or longer break that'll give them time to look back at what they did to fix what went wrong while improving what went right. One of Super and the francise's best characters is Black yet he got a short and somewhat rushed arc while the borefest Jiren has been front and center for over a year now.
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Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!
Yeah, I was the same as you when I was first getting into the manga. While the slice of life stuff is missed, I think I'll be sticking to the manga for all the arc material; the Super anime's arc material just irks me at this point. Honestly, I hate it. The manga, while not exactly Shakespeare, is good fun, and feels pretty Dragon Ball-y.GamerSkull wrote:Thanks. I'm looking forward to it. As someone unimpressed with the Super anime, I'm quite keen to see if the manga fixes up any issues I have with the story. Unfortunately, I'm sad that the slice-of-life stuff has been taken out of the manga since they were by far my favorite episodes of the anime.
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Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!
I don't have any friends that are into Dragon Ball enough to watch Super as it's coming out or on its official releases. But when I stumble onto youtube clips and read the comments and reactions about it, I become very embarrassed to be a Dragon Ball fan. The entitlement and bratty attitude is pretty disgusting.
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Re: The biasness against Toei is unreal!
That’s because in the past, everyone blamed Toriyama. Than it got revealed that it’s really Toei who’s behind everything. And now it’s suddenly Toriyama again.