When Fights Don't Know Where to End

[jamiljamtheman]

I'm sure there's a better name for this, but this is how I best associate it because it's the most prominent example to me given how much of the Dragon Ball franchise I've watched/experienced.

Before reading the whole rant below, I invite discussion into other fights and moments in Dragon Ball you feel have a similar effect, and why it seems to persist.

First I'll describe what I think the "Omega Shenron" effect is. It's in reference to the final showdown with him in GT - I got pretty annoyed after a while because it didn't know when to end. That is arguably my main problem with it, though there are some other things I don't like about that battle (bland villain, too one-sided in favor of the villain for too long). What I mean by that is that it could have ended in really strong ways at least two times over the course of the battle:

1. Goku and Vegeta fuse! The super awesome, super powerful Gogeta toys with and kicks the ass of Omega Shenron! Get pumped! The final blow with the giant laser blast saves everyone and then Gogeta triumphantly de-fuses! Awesome, right? Too bad that doesn't happen, and I don't care that there's an in-universe reason because that trolling de-fusing at the last moment nonsense was really contrived and irritating.

2. Fine, that didn't work. But there's another awesome moment! Nuova Shenron re-appears! He battles it out with Omega Shenron, and despite being (likely) not as powerful constructs the ultimate strategy to beat him! What a great character this shadow dragon is, I've really enjoyed the development of him over the course of this arc! He beats Omega Shenron, bids a heartfelt farewell to Goku, and vanishes with the other Dragon Balls. Awesome, right? Too bad that doesn't happen, because blah blah Omega Shenron is inside of him (??). Ugh.

So after even more dragging out, you'd think the fight's actual ending would be awesome and incredible. But nope. It isn't. It's one of my least favorite things in GT because frankly it doesn't make sense to me and seems out of nowhere. Goku's basically dead or near death, but then just floats up and builds a spirit bomb, remaining completely invulnerable for some unexplained reason, that is strong enough to defeat Omega Shenron. I admit it's nice seeing all the characters contribute to the attack, but that's about it for me. It's so contrived, and makes so little sense, that to me it feels like the writers wrote Omega Shenron to be so stupidly strong that they found themselves in a corner and had to quickly come up with a reason for him to lose. Not pleasant, especially considering all the awesome moments this fight could have ended at.


Long story short, this is how I feel the direction of Jiren is going. Yes, I have been potentially spoiled, but I ask that all of you who have don't reveal the likely ending to the battle(?). The point is I feel like Jiren has just been dragging out for too long, it's getting tiring (despite being very artistically pleasing), and it could have ended in an awesome way already but hasn't yet because Jiren is just so strong I guess. I mostly feel this from the fact that there are still episodes incoming after the past one which continue the battle--I think it would have been awesome for Goku to completely break his limits, maybe yell a bit, and just have a super epic finisher against Jiren ala the Kaulifla battle. Generic, I know, but at least it would be cool. Spoiler or not, I just hope this fight's conclusion isn't as unfullfilling as the Omega Shenron battle felt.

[Dbzfan94]

The fight with Omega after the fusion was only like 2 and a half episodes after SSJ4 Gogeta, including the Spirit Bomb.

If anything you should call it the Jiren effect because those two are totally different cases of them dragging it out

Also there’s a whole subliminal message in the GT Spirit Bonb ending especially with everyone asking “Are you...?”

[KBABZ]

You could arguably make the same case with Frieza's fight; there are various different parts of the fight where, even in the manga, nothing particularly progressive to the story is happening and is there to fill out a Chapter or two (such as Goku dodging all the rocks). Obviously, the anime gets this even worse and I remember this when watching it as a kid after school where I was trying to process just why the fight was taking such an enormous amount of time, even after Goku went Super Saiyan.

This isn't unique to DBZ either; arguably the first instance this happens is when Goku fights Jackie Chun in the finals, as that is the first multi-episode fight in the show and there are various points where a character pulls out a new move to fill out the episode, or someone appears to be rung out for sure only to make it back in. I think if the fight wasn't made up a handful of Chapters at a time, it could have been told more effectively.

Of course the all-time grand champion of this phenomenon is the Pirate Robot from the Red Ribbon arc. Seriously, read the manga Chapters for it, then watch the anime episodes and see how ludicrously they pad out the encounter.

[Kataphrut]

It's a VERY common trope in Dragon Ball that isn't exclusive to Omega or Jiren or Freeza and that's "big powerful built up super moves that don't work". As we all know, outside of the movies the Spirit Bomb has only ever worked once, and that's because it's too "obvious" a trump card, and Dragon Ball doesn't like obvious clear-cut endings. Same with fusion; outside of Movie 12, fusion has never been the big winner it's intended to be. It always runs out because the fusion got arrogant, or something goes wrong or they still *just* aren't strong enough. Props to Vegetto though, he feels like the only one who's actually trying to get the job done.

Even when the hero gets to the point where they *can* beat the villain, there's nearly always a complication. Again, the movies are the exception to this. Really, I think it was worst in Buu. That just did not know how to end.

[KBABZ]

outside of the movies the Spirit Bomb has only ever worked once

Twice! It was pretty crucial in the fight against Vegeta by significantly weakening him. But I agree it never really works.

"big powerful built up super moves that don't work"

WOLF FANG FIST!!!

[ABED]

I don't know how they would set it up or if it needed a set up, but the logical inference is Goku was killed or near death and made a deal with Shen Long. The idea being he would have enough time to destroy the 1-Star Dragon and then leave Earth with Shen Long and the Dragon Balls.

The Buu arc ending with the Genki Dama was a pleasant surprise. Toriyama subverted expectations twice, so it was nice that the trump card actually worked. Reversals and subversions of expectations are great, but sometimes the best subversion is to play it straight.

I think what the OP doesn't get is the concept of reversals (of fortune). A reversal doesn't mean it's dragging. It's a classic storytelling technique that keeps the audience guessing. I don't like the fight because fights have never been GT's strong suit, but it's 6 episodes long and it does progress in each one of them. The Freeza fight is so damn long that it was bound to feel like it was treading water at times even in the manga. The same with the Buu arc as a whole. That arc may have done it a few too many times (Gohan's power up, SS3, fusion)

The Wolf Fang Fist was never really built up.

[Okara]

The problem with the Omega Shenron fight was that the writers were already out of ideas and inspiration long before they got to it. That fight could’ve looked much more impressive in correlation to the level of power they were supposed to be at. It could’ve been a battle on a much larger scale than a random city and with much bigger stakes than just the Earth (I know technically, Omega was a threat to the universe. But he never actually felt like one and it was easy to forget due to how lackluster his feats were).

[KBABZ]

The Wolf Fang Fist was never really built up.

I was more poking fun at how the Wolf Fang Fist never seems to actually work no matter how much confidence Yamcha puts into it.

It could’ve been a battle on a much larger scale than a random city and with much bigger stakes than just the Earth (I know technically, Omega was a threat to the universe. But he never actually felt like one and it was easy to forget due to how lackluster his feats were).

One of the things I noticed with Dragon Ball past the Saiyan Arc, and definitely past the Namek arc, is that while the battle powers go up, the actual artistic "display" of the fights don't. The sheer scale of the attacks is for me one of the reasons why the Vegeta fight feels so titanic; the visuals have scaled up in correlation with the battle powers and stakes at hand, and it's clear to see. Past Namek, with a few select exceptions like the Final Flash or the final Spirit Bomb, we mostly see fights with energy attacks the size of what we saw used against Nappa or Zarbon, and it affects how we the audience take in and interpret the fights. To me nothing comes close to the titanic visuals of the Vegeta fight (compare to the Buu saga rematch which feels like it's on a considerably smaller scale to me).

To use GT as an example, before fighting Rild Goku says that he's more powerful than Majin Buu, and yet the visuals of the fight fall more in the range of, like, Cui.

[ABED]

The problem with such dire stakes as universe ending level stakes is that it can be far too easy for them to not feel concrete. You have to personalize stakes for them to have an impact.

While I get the points being made about the scale of the fight and lack of demonstration of their relative power, my issue is that I don't feel the force of the blows. We don't see or feel the brutality of the 1 star Dragon or Goku's fists hitting each other. That alone would help those fights a lot. Hell, it would help GT a lot.

The 1 Star Dragon fight could've been at least an episode shorter, but six episodes is manageable. I don't see the reversals as treading water, just lacking in execution.

[KBABZ]

We don't see or feel the brutality of the 1 star Dragon or Goku's fists hitting each other. That alone would help those fights a lot. Hell, it would help GT a lot.

The 1 Star Dragon fight could've been at least an episode shorter, but six episodes is manageable. I don't see the reversals as treading water, just lacking in execution.

Ah, yeah I forgot to put my finger on that. One of the reasons I think the first Vegeta clash is so memorable even today is because, at least to me, it's the one where the heroes were just barely able to win. Vegeta just keeps coming back around and they have to think up a new trick to land a solid hit, and by the end everyone is battered, bloody and completely exhausted. You really feel like it took everything they had.

[ABED]

From Tenshinhan to Vegeta is a stretch of great final fights after another. I like the Freeza fight but that treads water a lot. The fighting is brutal and vicious but it's far too long. The 1 star Dragon fight was a good length, and I don't think ending it with Gogeta destroying him was impactful enough. It's too easy, plus the reversals worked well enough.

I don't think we should call it the "Omega Shenron Effect", and I'm not sure we need to come up with some new term for this.

[jamiljamtheman]

From Tenshinhan to Vegeta is a stretch of great final fights after another. I like the Freeza fight but that treads water a lot. The fighting is brutal and vicious but it's far too long. The 1 star Dragon fight was a good length, and I don't think ending it with Gogeta destroying him was impactful enough. It's too easy, plus the reversals worked well enough.

I don't think we should call it the "Omega Shenron Effect", and I'm not sure we need to come up with some new term for this.

I was probably being dramatic with the naming due to the fact that GT was the first one I watched. I agree with you that it isn't super long in episode length, but it feels more drawn out to me than, say, the Baby fight, because so much of it is Omega Shenron beating up the saiyans. I understand how much stronger he is than them, but I feel that trope overstayed its welcome.

I might argue that Gogeta acts as a reversal to that whole chunk of the fight prior, but in the heroes' favor, so it was very satisfying and I think it would have been a satisfying ending. I understand where you're coming from with "too easy" though. Similar to how you described the Buu Arc (I haven't watched it), I just felt the whole reversal thing happened too often too quickly to the point where instead of keeping me on the edge of my seat I was laying back and grumbling. Had Nuova Shenron won the battle, I think it would have been less cliche than Gogeta, offer a solid conclusion to the best new character of that arc, and be a satisfying, unexpected reversal against the villain. But alas, it is what it is, and at least the fight isn't as long as the Frieza battle (a battle which I did not see to the end).

To clarify, I am aware that the reversals add tension to the fight and are very effective when used well, but I am calling the "Omega Shenron Effect" using it too many times to the point where I felt it was unnecessary. The reversals are not my issue, it was the lack of effectiveness in their execution in this case--compounded with the ending to the battle, though I appreciate the context of him making a deal with Shenron. It's been a while for me.

[ABED]

But the 4 Star Dragon isn't one of the main characters. It's not as emotionally satisfying if it's a tertiary character who saves the day. I agree that he's a great new character, but other than the surprise, I don't see the value in giving the win to someone who isn't a main character, especially since for intents and purposes, that was the end of Dragon Ball.

I would hardly call two reversals too many. Stories need reversals, large and small, all the time. The ending could've been better but neither instance you listed feels right for the ending.

[Robo4900]

If we must name it after the 1-star dragon, can we at least use one of the correct names for him? (1-Star Dragon, Yi Xing Long, or Ii Shinron(Note that's an I, not an L), or perhaps in this case, Super Yi Xing Long/Super Ii Shinron/Super 1-Star Dragon)

Though, honestly, I don't think the fight against Yi Xing Long is worthy of getting a special term named after it for something the Dragon Ball franchise has done badly at times. Besides, GT already gets enough hate from the circlejerk that's its irredeemable drivel, meanwhile Super seems to get a free pass because of Toriyama and hype. So let's not spend yet another thread bashing GT because everyone's still butthurt about it not living up to expectations, let's actually discuss the thing we came here to discuss -- Jiren. Because, let's be fair here, the reason this thread was opened was to criticise Jiren, and perhaps discuss how similar things apply to the broader DB franchise.

And, while we're at it, how about we call this the Jiren Effect, and actually discuss how it affects Super and the rest of the franchise, rather than wasting another cool idea for a thread on several pages of mindless GT bashing.

[KBABZ]

If we must name it after the 1-star dragon, can we at least use one of the correct names for him? (1-Star Dragon, Yi Xing Long, or Ii Shinron(Note that's an I, not an L), or perhaps in this case, Super Yi Xing Long/Super Ii Shinron/Super 1-Star Dragon)

I agree, however it is handy for when a Dubbie is talking to a... Subbie(?) because it references the key identifier of that dragon present in both versions, and the characters are obscure enough to most that they won't bother to remember their names outside of "the fat frog one" or "that girl one".

[ABED]

And, while we're at it, how about we call this the Jiren Effect, and actually discuss how it affects Super and the rest of the franchise, rather than wasting another cool idea for a thread on several pages of mindless GT bashing.

Or rather the Buu Effect?

[jamiljamtheman]

And, while we're at it, how about we call this the Jiren Effect, and actually discuss how it affects Super and the rest of the franchise, rather than wasting another cool idea for a thread on several pages of mindless GT bashing.

GT is still the Dragon Ball I am most well-versed in, so I derived this from my experience with Omega Shenron, though as you and ABED have mentioned there are other, more prominent examples of it in the franchise outside of my own experience. I quite like GT, but the final fight was not my favorite part of the show. I still enjoyed it, I just think it could have ended in a cooler way than it did.

Back to Jiren, I really hope that fight ends in a cool way. Like Omega Shenron, it may not be super long in terms of episode count (or, at the very least, screentime), but I feel it runs the risk of becoming repetitive and dragging. It already feels to me like Jiren is just a big wall that has overstayed his welcome, with minimal personality. There have been cool moments like Vegeta's limit breaker and his team-up with Goku, Goku's recent limit breaking, 17's sacrifice, etc. but Jiren doesn't seem to have many particularly interesting reversals other than just being a really strong grey guy. The fight doesn't know where to end and the remaining episode count is running low.

But like Omega Shenron, I am still enjoying it and while the show hasn't finished yet, I can still have hopes for a really excellent finale to the fight and the tournament. I'll definitely post to this after tonight's episode!

[ABED]

Just wondering why GT is what you are most familiar with. You should go back and watch DB from the beginning.

[TheMikado]

And, while we're at it, how about we call this the Jiren Effect, and actually discuss how it affects Super and the rest of the franchise, rather than wasting another cool idea for a thread on several pages of mindless GT bashing.

Or rather the Buu Effect?

Exactly, omega shenron is one of the least worthy of this effect ironically.

That Buu arc was absurd and the final battle was just awful. The buying Goku time got old quick.

[ABED]

For the most part, I like the fight against Kid Buu. It's not the buying time that bothers me. What bothers me in the Buu arc is not just its sheer length, it's the number of big concepts that get introduced and end up going nowhere. And unlike the 4-Star Dragon being the one to take out the big bad, both Gotenks and Gohan were main characters, so them defeating Buu would've made sense given the direction the story seemed to be heading.

I like the Genki Dama finally finishing off an opponent, but the problem is that it doesn't tie thematically with the rest of the arc. Ironically, given GT's story about traveling throughout the galaxy, drawing energy from all the people they met along the way ties it all together.