When Fights Don't Know Where to End

[jamiljamtheman]

Just wondering why GT is what you are most familiar with. You should go back and watch DB from the beginning.

It's the only series I've seen all the way through. I watched it first when I wanted to see what Dragon Ball was all about because I figured at the time that it was the shortest and I could see the characters already being super strong (Super didn't exist at this time). I really enjoyed it and credit it with getting me interested in Dragon Ball.

Since then, I have watched and read scattered things including the movies, some of DB Kai and even less of DBZ, the Super Manga, and the Super anime. I intend to actually read or watch the whole Dragon Ball story one day, I just haven't found the urge to do so yet. For now I survive based on common knowledge, what others bring up, and external media like video games for my familiarity with the DB world as a whole.

I decided to bring this up because I could sense some similarities to what I was familiar with currently in Super, and also maybe a little because I wanted to rant.

[ABED]

But it's a serialized story. It might be the shortest show, but it's the tail end. It's like starting a TV show with the final season. Even though the characters are stronger in GT than they were at any point prior, that doesn't make the execution of the fights any better. If you want to see what DB is all about, you shouldn't have started with GT.

[KBABZ]

But it's a serialized story. It might be the shortest, but it's the tail end. It's like starting a story at the tale end.

I do get where he's coming from. For the longest time my only point of familiarity with the series was Pilaf to 22nd, and vague memories of DBZ. It wasn't until I did a massive binge of DB+Kai that I actually became somewhat familiar with the Z content, and while I haven't gotten around to watching Super, I do intend to at some point. And that's not even taking into account when I decided to jump onto this site and learn about the real original japanese manga form of the story.

jamil's case is arguably a more niche version of most US fans who are intensely familiar with Z but have no intention of watching the first series. What separates it for me is jamil's acknowledgement that he doesn't know much outside of GT, and especially that he intends to get around to the rest of it someday. That's wholesome and honest intent and it makes him a "genuine" fan to me compared to the Z shut-ins that make up most of the US fanbase.

[Robo4900]

I agree, however it is handy for when a Dubbie is talking to a... Subbie(?) because it references the key identifier of that dragon present in both versions, and the characters are obscure enough to most that they won't bother to remember their names outside of "the fat frog one" or "that girl one".

Eh, if a dub-fan doesn't get it, one of the posters(Or perhaps the OP, in a small note in the very first post) can quickly clarify the character's dub name.
Besides, several dub-fans who grew up on the show's original run in Canada and the UK wouldn't get who "Omega Shenron" is either if they haven't watched it since the original TV run, since Blue Water called him "Ii Shenron". Still not a completely correct name, but if you go with Ii Shinron, you're close enough that people who watched the BW dub would get it, at least. And it uses the same kind of transliteration as "Shenron", romanising the Japanese pronunciation(Ii Shinron), rather than the Chinese(Yi Xing Long. Also, for reference, this is why Steve Simmons always uses "Shen Long" in his subs).

Though, really, that logic is kind of a stretch, and to be honest, if someone doesn't get the name, it's pretty obvious who's being referred to in the OP. Unless the person involved doesn't read the OP. In which case, it's their fault if they've missed something important, I say.

Or rather the Buu Effect?

Eh, I guess that works too.
Though, really, I'd say the Boo Effect would more likely be something that refers to either the weird tangents and directions the longer arcs tend to go in(Like, seriously, plot out the Boo arc and the Red Ribbon arc; they go in a ton of different directions), or how a really interesting and/or fun character can get sidelined due to them being really overpowered.

(Not just a dig at Super; GT isn't innocent either, but that's a discussion for another day)

[...]
But like Omega Shenron, I am still enjoying it and while the show hasn't finished yet, I can still have hopes for a really excellent finale to the fight and the tournament. I'll definitely post to this after tonight's episode!

Haha. Well, I love GT. But, I completely and utterly hate Super's anime. I won't go into it, because you guys all seem to enjoy it, and who am I to crap on your fun?
Anyway, ironically enough, I don't really have much to contribute to this discussion outside of telling people how tired I am about the hate for GT, since the Super manga is so far behind, I have no idea what Jiren's deal is, and Toyotaro may end up avoiding this particular failing in his telling.

But, in any case, I hope you enjoy the episode, and gain a lot more interesting stuff to discuss in this thread from it.

It's the only series I've seen all the way through. I watched it first when I wanted to see what Dragon Ball was all about because I figured at the time that it was the shortest and I could see the characters already being super strong (Super didn't exist at this time). I really enjoyed it and credit it with getting me interested in Dragon Ball.

Since then, I have watched and read scattered things including the movies, some of DB Kai and even less of DBZ, the Super Manga, and the Super anime. I intend to actually read or watch the whole Dragon Ball story one day, I just haven't found the urge to do so yet. For now I survive based on common knowledge, what others bring up, and external media like video games for my familiarity with the DB world as a whole.

I decided to bring this up because I could sense some similarities to what I was familiar with currently in Super, and also maybe a little because I wanted to rant.

Haha, fair enough. Dragon Ball runs long.
If you plan on watching the whole run sometime, I suggest starting with the original Dragon Ball series. It's quite easygoing, it's where the story starts, and since the arcs didn't really get that involved until about the midpoint of the Red Ribbon Army arc, it doesn't matter if you aren't able to watch it consistently for pretty much the entire first half of the show.

I'm curious, though -- I presume you watched dubbed, but was it with the Japanese score?
Either way, glad to see someone else who sees GT in a positive light. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one around...

But it's a serialized story. It might be the shortest show, but it's the tail end. It's like starting a TV show with the final season. Even though the characters are stronger in GT than they were at any point prior, that doesn't make the execution of the fights any better. If you want to see what DB is all about, you shouldn't have started with GT.

Dude, leave him alone. What's done is done; he enjoyed it in the end, and that's what matters. Would you like it if I started ripping into you for starting with Dragon Ball Z?

(Yes, I'm presuming here. But let's be real, most fans did, and as it's 194 chapters or 153 episodes away from the start of the series, the same logic applies)

Ironically, given GT's story about traveling throughout the galaxy, drawing energy from all the people they met along the way ties it all together.

Sorry to be a pedant, but that's not irony, that's coincidence. (Or, dare I say, good writing. )

For the most part, I like the fight against Kid Buu. It's not the buying time that bothers me. What bothers me in the Buu arc is not just its sheer length, it's the number of big concepts that get introduced and end up going nowhere. And unlike the 4-Star Dragon being the one to take out the big bad, both Gotenks and Gohan were main characters, so them defeating Buu would've made sense given the direction the story seemed to be heading.

I like the Genki Dama finally finishing off an opponent, but the problem is that it doesn't tie thematically with the rest of the arc.

I really love the Boo arc as a whole, but yeah, it did not need to be as long as it was, and the ending kinda comes outta no-where. I think it was definitely a good point for Toriyama to stop doing the manga.

[ABED]

Would you like it if I started ripping into you for starting with Dragon Ball Z?

(Yes, I'm presuming here. But let's be real, most fans did, and as it's 194 chapters or 153 episodes away from the start of the series, the same logic applies)

Robo, I wasn't bullying him. It was merely a suggestion to start a story at the beginning and one I don't think is that controversial. I don't think I ripped into him at all.
As for starting with DBZ, apples and oranges. It's a different time and I started with Z as a matter of accessibility. I couldn't get access to DB back in 1996. I had to start with DBZ. That's no longer the case over 20 years later.

Sorry to be a pedant, but that's not irony, that's coincidence. (Or, dare I say, good writing. )

I understand the difference. The irony comes from GT being the series to thematically tie the Genki Dama and the arc together. You cut out the first part of the paragraph.

I agree that naming this idea after a particular character does lead to issues like what you brought up.

[Logania]

"Omega Shenron Effect" is basically Freeza and the entire half of the Buu Saga for me lol

[Metalwario64]

If we must name it after the 1-star dragon, can we at least use one of the correct names for him? (1-Star Dragon, Yi Xing Long, or Ii Shinron(Note that's an I, not an L), or perhaps in this case, Super Yi Xing Long/Super Ii Shinron/Super 1-Star Dragon)

Yeah, I thought this thread was going to be about the terrible dub name changes (with "Omega Shenron" and the other dragons are among the worst, being that all they had to do was call them by their number).

[KBABZ]

Either way, glad to see someone else who sees GT in a positive light. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one around...

I'm still working my way towards being familiar with it, but watching along with the GT Review of Awesomeness has given me a healthy appreciation for it. I like how classical it is; compared to Super, there's something more wholesome about GTs looks, and there's no way I'm gonna argue with getting more content from that day and age, a bit like how it's always a joy to find some unique works like Eradicate the Super Saiyans or that one movie special with Goku in a tux. Heck even watching that dumb telephone game was cool because it was from back in the show's prime! It looked amazing!

And despite Baby's immediate comparison to Buu, his parasitic nature gives him a unique angle; seeing him take over and mind control literally everyone on Earth is creepy AF.

If we must name it after the 1-star dragon, can we at least use one of the correct names for him? (1-Star Dragon, Yi Xing Long, or Ii Shinron(Note that's an I, not an L), or perhaps in this case, Super Yi Xing Long/Super Ii Shinron/Super 1-Star Dragon)

Yeah, I thought this thread was going to be about the terrible dub name changes (with "Omega Shenron" and the other dragons are among the worst, being that all they had to do was call them by their number).

Heck even Alpha Shenron would have been better since that's the start! Omega means end!

[ABED]

Heck even Alpha Shenron would have been better since that's the start! Omega means end!

The initials of the "shadow dragons" spells out SHENRON.
Syn
Haze
Eis
Nuova
Rage
Oceanus
Naturon

[ekrolo2]

Heck even Alpha Shenron would have been better since that's the start! Omega means end!

The initials of the "shadow dragons" spells out SHENRON.
Syn
Haze
Eis
Nuova
Rage
Oceanus
Naturon

An instance where the dub names sound a lot better than the originals. I mean c'mon, Omega being the name of the final bad guy is awesome as hell.

[ABED]

I don't think this needs a colorful name. It seems more or less that this "effect" is a combination of too many false finishes and anticlimax.

[Robo4900]

Heck even Alpha Shenron would have been better since that's the start! Omega means end!

The initials of the "shadow dragons" spells out SHENRON.
Syn
Haze
Eis
Nuova
Rage
Oceanus
Naturon

An instance where the dub names sound a lot better than the originals. I mean c'mon, Omega being the name of the final bad guy is awesome as hell.

I mean, I think giving the super form of Yi Xing Long a special name is a kinda cool idea, especially since technically he isn't necessarily the One-Star Dragon anymore, since he's using all 7 balls(Though, admittedly, this is a weird technicality to jump on for a name and voice actor change). So, it kinda makes sense to use a new name, and "Omega" isn't a bad name for him, necessarily.
But, "Shenron" is just ignorant, and the rest of the names are just a bit dumb. Nuova Shenron? Oceanus Shenron? Syn Shenron?... Pretty lazy, IMO. The names are just kind of "Okay we need a name. He's evil, so how about Sin? And we'll style it as 'Syn'. Okay, this guy does fire stuff... Nova? Nuova. There we go. This one does water stuff... Ocean? Oceanus. Yeah, that'll do."
Meanwhile, Si Xing Long(Or Su Shinron; the "Si" is pronounced closer to "Su". Chinese romanisation is weird), Liu Xing Long(Or Ryu Shinron), Yi Xing Long(Or Ii Shinron, or Ī Shinron, if you like) actually have a pretty cool logic behind them, with the names coming from the Chinese for "[number]-star dragon". Plus, they sound cool.

Ultimately, it's not a dub's job to improve on the original product either way, and while the idea of the initials spelling out "SHENRON" is not a bad idea, they completely destroyed the original meaning of the names in favour of doing an easter egg with their own made-up names for them, so even if their names were better, this name changing is representative of many of the problems Funimation's dub had back then.

Still, I suppose there's always the Blue Water dub, if you can get past the different voices.

Or the Japanese version, if you want to watch it correctly.

[ekrolo2]

Ultimately, it's not a dub's job to improve on the original product either way, and while the idea of the initials spelling out "SHENRON" is not a bad idea, they completely destroyed the original meaning of the names in favour of doing an easter egg with their own made-up names for them, so even if their names were better, this name changing is representative of many of the problems Funimation's dub had back then.

Still, I suppose there's always the Blue Water dub, if you can get past the different voices.

Or the Japanese version, if you want to watch it correctly.

I honestly prefer the dub names just because the sound more distinct whereas the Japanese one's just kind of jumble together in my head, making it impossible to know which one I'm talking about when I'm using it. It's like boiling down the awful, awful Japanese names for most of the Z movies to a set of characters instead of films.

As for the dub changes, yeah I get that people are bothered by that stuff as of the recent Black being Britisg controversy but honestly I cannot be arsed to go into discussions about that or aspect ratios.

[Robo4900]

I honestly prefer the dub names just because the sound more distinct whereas the Japanese one's just kind of jumble together in my head, making it impossible to know which one I'm talking about when I'm using it. It's like boiling down the awful, awful Japanese names for most of the Z movies to a set of characters instead of films.

I mean, I don't think they're any more distinct. Again, I find them to be lazy, and really, kinda generic.

Still, different strokes for different folks, I suppose. Really, I think the issues with Funimation's GT dub stretch well beyond the names, or even the poor scripting anyway. So, pulling apart the names is perhaps not the best way to go about such a discussion.
Though, I think actually going into that discussion would veer a little too far off-topic...

[jamiljamtheman]

Update after seeing Episode 130:
[spoiler]I still think it's silly that Jiren just keeps powering up and the fight isn't over, but the battle is so visually pleasing and exciting that I really enjoyed it. As for the end of the episode, I was super excited to say the least to see two of my favorite tournament participants make a surprise re-entrance (well, Frieza wasn't a surprise). Definitely a nice twist and an semi-unpredictable transition into the last episode of the show, which I have pretty high expectations for now.[/spoiler]

Also, I think(?) I changed the title of this topic with this post. Maybe more appropriate than naming it after Omega Shenron. I'll always know it by that battle, but it's probably not an accurate name outside of my own brain

[ABED]

Even for such a long fight, Freeza getting cut in half by his own attack feels like a fitting end for Freeza. The one fight where I thought the ending felt limp was when Baby fled in a spaceship only to be pushed into the sun. The rest of them had good finishes even if some battles were on the long side.

[SuperCyan2]

I honestly prefer the dub names just because the sound more distinct whereas the Japanese one's just kind of jumble together in my head, making it impossible to know which one I'm talking about when I'm using it. It's like boiling down the awful, awful Japanese names for most of the Z movies to a set of characters instead of films.

As for the dub changes, yeah I get that people are bothered by that stuff as of the recent Black being Britisg controversy but honestly I cannot be arsed to go into discussions about that or aspect ratios.

A Croatian that watches the English FUNi dub? Nothing wrong with that but making assumptions such as "Black being British" is an American thing to say, there are many English accents rather than "British" so it's more accurate to say "Black having an English accent" and the whole dub thing, I guess that's also part of FUNi's dub. There are tons of dubs in the world, you know.

I can kinda agree with you on the Dragon Ball Z Japanese titles, they really made them insanely long and full of spoilers.

An instance where the dub names sound a lot better than the originals. I mean c'mon, Omega being the name of the final bad guy is awesome as hell.

The Japanese swap the L for R and vice-versa so it's not exactly a "dub" name.

[Cetra]

An instance where the dub names sound a lot better than the originals. I mean c'mon, Omega being the name of the final bad guy is awesome as hell.

The Japanese swap the L for R and vice-versa so it's not exactly a "dub" name.

That has nothing to do with what he said. Omega Shen Long's original name is Super Yi Xing Long.

[ekrolo2]

I honestly prefer the dub names just because the sound more distinct whereas the Japanese one's just kind of jumble together in my head, making it impossible to know which one I'm talking about when I'm using it. It's like boiling down the awful, awful Japanese names for most of the Z movies to a set of characters instead of films.

As for the dub changes, yeah I get that people are bothered by that stuff as of the recent Black being Britisg controversy but honestly I cannot be arsed to go into discussions about that or aspect ratios.

A Croatian that watches the English FUNi dub? Nothing wrong with that but making assumptions such as "Black being British" is an American thing to say, there are many English accents rather than "British" so it's more accurate to say "Black having an English accent" and the whole dub thing, I guess that's also part of FUNi's dub. There are tons of dubs in the world, you know.

I can kinda agree with you on the Dragon Ball Z Japanese titles, they really made them insanely long and full of spoilers.

An instance where the dub names sound a lot better than the originals. I mean c'mon, Omega being the name of the final bad guy is awesome as hell.

The Japanese swap the L for R and vice-versa so it's not exactly a "dub" name.

A lot my English is based on American cartoons teaching me so I tend to have "Americanism" in the way I describe things, hence why Black's accent gets described as British, even though English is the proper way to do it.

[KBABZ]

Heck even Alpha Shenron would have been better since that's the start! Omega means end!

The initials of the "shadow dragons" spells out SHENRON.

Yes I realize that. (also could you keep the usernames in your quotes so I know when you're replying to me?)

Even for such a long fight, Freeza getting cut in half by his own attack feels like a fitting end for Freeza. The one fight where I thought the ending felt limp was when Baby fled in a spaceship only to be pushed into the sun. The rest of them had good finishes even if some battles were on the long side.

Augh yes it is! I mean, technically the real end is when Goku blasts Frieza for attacking him with the borrowed energy, which in itself is utterly iconic to me, but the actual defeat in combat is so good. Like, Goku says that Frieza was beaten by a Saiyan, but we all know it was Frieza's self-confidence that did that to him (otherwise he'd have known where the discs were).