Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

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Re: Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

Post by Captain Strawberry » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:22 pm

Dragon ball

There are plenty of good things I could say about this series. It was a great adventure series with a goofy take on "Journey To The West", the classic Chinese novel.

I felt the Red Ribbon Army Arc was a bit boring and the series had small minor inconsistencies like the Dragon Ball's being ready to activate when a full year didn't passed but overall no major con.

DBZ

There are plenty of bad things I could say about this series but there are good points.

It starts to take a big turn for a sequel that you could say it doesn't really feel like a sequel, for example it turns from Fantasy to Sci-Fi (which isn't a pro or a con to some).

It had good fights, while it shafted other characters in the background it did have good character development like Vegeta, Piccolo etc.

There were a lot of emotions in some of the transformations like Gohan becoming SSJ2 and Dragon Ball Z did have that intensity of like "how are we going to beat the antagonist".

DBZ did portray some interesting themes like "accepting your heritage"

I'm not going to list everything but one of the things I do want to bring up is how "weapons" got shafted and don't play a huge significance in the story or the fight. This is mainly coming from someone who is a huge fan of weapons.

The Buu arc did get dragged on because there were plenty of moments where the arc could have ended like Gohan beating Buu and another example is Vegito killing Buu than using the Dragon Balls to revive everyone.

A major con I would say is that the world doesn't feel as big as it use to be despite it being turned in to a Sci Fi and you can say one of the reasons for that is the characters move too fast or that Earth isn't a really big focus anymore to have more world building. Basically, I don't think DBZ has had as much a lore impact as DB had.

Though I do think it is a big down grade from DB there is a lot of things that people can love in this series.


DBS

Since there are two separate continuity like the manga and the anime, I'm not going to go to detail.

There are some great concepts here, some characters were given a bit more shine. The world is expanded although parts of the writing that can be too simple (like Frieza training for four months) and there could have been moments that could have been adding to the story which could have made a great impact. Like Future Trunks training with Present King Kai.

The anime does step up from DBZ (which did exist in early DBZ but slowly faded away) and I am talking about strategy and technique.

There can be a lot of negatives but one of them I thing is a big con is still a very big focus on the Saiyajins. Not to mention interesting lore is not exactly mentioned like the whole Yamoshi spirit thing.

DBS is more of a sequel to DBZ than DBZ was to DB.

It still has some of that very weird and whacky writing like in DBZ you had these strangely powerful androids, you still find stuff like that here.

Except here, it does have more of a fantasy feel with the introduction of Beerus and all that. Which isn't a con or a pro, just something I wanted to mention.
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Re: Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:18 pm

Dragon Ball:
Pro - Great usage of the supporting cast, well timed and integrated comedy, a wonderfully expanded world, that feels rich, diverse and un-repetitive, the additional material in the anime is mostly good, Kikuchi's musical score and artwork in the manga is astonishing.

Cons - The King Piccolo arc is not good at all and some terrible last few episodes in the anime

Dragon Ball Z:
Pro - Everything about the Saiyan arc in both mediums, the first 1/3 of the Freeza arc, Mr Satan's character arc, Studio Cockpit's episodes, the animation adaptation of the Majin Boo arc, Kikuchi's musical score and the performances from the Japanese cast in the anime, with special mention to Ryō Horikawa, Ryūsei Nakao and Norio Wakamoto.

Cons - Some awful filler (both in content and placement in the narrative), the mishandling of the supporting cast beyond the Saiyan arc, the Garlic Jr arc is abysmal, the Cell arc is thoroughly horrendous, the final 1/4 of the Majin Boo arc is terrible, artwork for most of the Majin Boo arc in the manga is poor and the ending of the Z feels somewhat unsatisfying.

Dragon Ball GT:
Pros - Goku's characterisation, everything about SSJ4, the Baby arc in its entirety, the concept of the Shadow Dragons, Akihito Tokunaga fantastic musical score, provides some much needed closure for some of the supporting cast and the final episode.

Cons - The Super 17 arc is the worst arc to ever exist in Dragon Ball, half of the Black Star Dragon Ball arc is bad, some generally boring episodes in between and during arcs and some of the comedy isn't handled well at all, and a lot of the character design are unappealing.

Dragon Ball Super:
Pros - Has that distinct Toriyama charm when it comes to comedy or general storytelling in both mediums, some of the inconsequential episodes are the best in show, wonderful expansion on the Dragon Ball cosmos, mostly great new characters introduced, the debut and concept of Ultra Instinct, some of the best animation in all of Dragon Ball is scattered across the show and the manga is generally very good.

Cons - Production issues plague 1/3 of the show, some elements of the Battle Of Gods retelling, the second half of the Resurrection F retelling is the dirt fucking worst, all of the Copy Vegeta arc, the music is very bipolar, the story runs on "Rule Of Cool" to its detriment at times, and the show takes place during a period in Dragon Ball's overall narrative where it's impossible to create tension.

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Re: Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

Post by MajinMan » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:16 pm

Timetraveller wrote:
MajinMan wrote:Dragon Ball
The Super 17 arc is the worst arc in the whole series, I just don't like it at all
It couldn't possibly have been worse than the Russerection of F arc. Animation issues aside (the arc featured the worst animation in the show. I thought Goku vs Frieza was animated worse than the Goku vs Beerus fight), the entire plot is literally Freeza wants revenge and has a new form. Zero build-up and zero new ideas. At least Super 17 isn't a recolor like Golden Frieza. It also lasted a few episodes (as long as you'd expect filler to go on for) vs RoF which went on for twice as long and had less plot.
I think they’re both trash, considering I have them as the bottom 2 arcs in the whole series, but the Super 17 is worse for 3 reasons:

- Super 17 himself is a really stupid idea. I think he’s the worst main antagonist of an arc. And not only that, they basically wasted bringing back 17 into the story. He was basically a mindless zombie, and then he just fused with some other 17 and died, never to be seen again. I think that’s stupid.

- The treatment of Freeza and Cell. They felt like such generic villains and were completely uninteresting. You can hate RF all you want, but Freeza at least felt like Freeza in that arc.

- Res F had a returning villain, but this whole arc is just returning villains. Literally.


I don’t care how short the S17 arc is or how “original” its idea is compared to RF. I still think it’s a worse story and idea than RF, and will list it below for that reason. I will agree that the animation was better in S17, but every arc has better animation than RF does.
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Re: Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

Post by ABED » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:25 pm

- Super 17 himself is a really stupid idea. I think he’s the worst main antagonist of an arc. And not only that, they basically wasted bringing back 17 into the story. He was basically a mindless zombie, and then he just fused with some other 17 and died, never to be seen again. I think that’s stupid.
For whatever issues I have with it, I've never seen 17 as that great of a character and I don't think he was wasted in that arc. I don't see why you think it's stupid that he dies to never be seen again. The emotion didn't quite land, but I understand what they were going for in having 17 become a victim and several times break through that trance. It's sad to think he was the one who killed 18's husband, Kuririn, and ultimately it was 18 who helped Goku defeat her brother. Goku realizes 17 broke through a little and helped expose Super 17's weakness. Execution was weak but I don't think 17 was that great a character to begin with, so I would hardly consider it a huge waste.

Thankfully the arc is kept short, but the fight is very boring. Only so long I can take seeing a villain beat up the good guys without the good guy getting some sort of effective offense.
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Re: Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:56 pm

Dragon Ball

Pros: More comedy than dooper serious. I really liked the ending theme song. Not 60 plus episodes of characters just staring each other down to save on budget

Cons: Too much immature teehee girlz have bewbies jokes.

Dragon Ball Z
Pros: Kikuchi score. Some of the filler is nice
Cons: The utterly infamously bad pacing. Worse is a lot of episodes may be 99 percent filler but maybe something slightly important happens so you can't just skip an episode. Which makes me appreciate what Dragon Ball Kai and the Saban dub did

Dragon Ball GT
Pros: Some of the ideas were cool
Cons: It wasn't very engaging to me. It really felt like nobody but Goku mattered at this point


Dragon Ball Kai
Pros: Excellent pacing aside from the Goku vs Freeza fight (still better than Z!) the Yamamoto score is fun, a good dub]

Cons: the score was plagiarized, the Kikuchi stock score is poorly placed into it. I don't care for Dragon Soul.

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Re: Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

Post by Kuwabara » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:27 am

Dragon Ball

Pros: Extremely funny, great fights, Maeda Minoru's best work on display.
Cons: The Red Ribbon Army arc is a little too long.

Dragon Ball Z

Pros: Best animation direction in the franchise, Kikuchi and Kageyama's musical contributions are unbelievable, introduced some of the franchise's most iconic heroes and villains, and an inspired synthesis of disparate sci-fi, fantasy, and martial arts elements that just works.
Cons: Terrible pacing and filler in what would otherwise be a great adaptation. The Buu arc, in spite of some great moments, jerks around the audience constantly and way overstays its welcome, even in the original manga.

Dragon Ball GT

Pros: Interesting art direction and character designs, OP and ED themes are great.
Cons: More boring than even the slowest slogs of Z in spite of only being 64 episodes, quite an achievement! Battles lack tension, flow, and impact, perhaps due to Toei not having any source material to draw from. Lots of interesting ideas that are never executed very well.

Dragon Ball Kai

Pros: Pacing and editing is stellar on average, enhancing the kineticism of the original anime in a big way. Yamamoto's score is bombastic, with lots of memorable tracks.
Cons: Despite having pretty good looking colors, line art is very soft for my taste, and the retraced scenes are pointless, look bad, and lack grit. The placement of Yamamoto's tracks is often repetitive, and the Kikuchi version is a thousand times worse in this regard.

Dragon Ball Kai: The Final Chapters

Pros: While not as tight as Kai 1.0, the pacing and editing is still a vast improvement. Sumitomo's score is also way better than the same five Kikuchi tracks played over and over. Fight It Out is fucking awesome!
Cons: Cropped with awful colors, they either didn't know what they were doing or knew and didn't care. Sumitomo's score, while serviceable, often sounds tinny and more like a video game OST than something produced for a television series.

Dragon Ball Super

Pros: When production is on point, animation direction is something to behold. Humor and incidental character interactions are well written. Most arcs succeed at what GT failed to do on multiple fronts, whether it's tackling many of the same ideas and themes in an almost tongue-in-cheek way, or just carrying on the spirit of Dragon Ball. Toriyama's influence is well taken.
Cons: The first two arcs are a sloppy goulash of rushed production and worthless padding, possibly even worse to stomach than GT. Ensuing arcs are far better realized with satisfying pay-offs and conclusions overall, but arguably a little safe and predictable in certain instances. Sumitomo's Super score also runs into the same issue as Kai's scores in terms of music placement and reused tracks, not sure why this is such a hard balance to strike.
This is the episode of when Gokuh enrages himself after Freezer talk shit about Kuririn

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Re: Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

Post by Timetraveller » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:57 am

MajinMan wrote:
Timetraveller wrote:
MajinMan wrote:Dragon Ball
The Super 17 arc is the worst arc in the whole series, I just don't like it at all
It couldn't possibly have been worse than the Russerection of F arc. Animation issues aside (the arc featured the worst animation in the show. I thought Goku vs Frieza was animated worse than the Goku vs Beerus fight), the entire plot is literally Freeza wants revenge and has a new form. Zero build-up and zero new ideas. At least Super 17 isn't a recolor like Golden Frieza. It also lasted a few episodes (as long as you'd expect filler to go on for) vs RoF which went on for twice as long and had less plot.
I think they’re both trash, considering I have them as the bottom 2 arcs in the whole series, but the Super 17 is worse for 3 reasons:

- Super 17 himself is a really stupid idea. I think he’s the worst main antagonist of an arc. And not only that, they basically wasted bringing back 17 into the story. He was basically a mindless zombie, and then he just fused with some other 17 and died, never to be seen again. I think that’s stupid.

- The treatment of Freeza and Cell. They felt like such generic villains and were completely uninteresting. You can hate RF all you want, but Freeza at least felt like Freeza in that arc.

- Res F had a returning villain, but this whole arc is just returning villains. Literally.


I don’t care how short the S17 arc is or how “original” its idea is compared to RF. I still think it’s a worse story and idea than RF, and will list it below for that reason. I will agree that the animation was better in S17, but every arc has better animation than RF does.
- Super 17 is a stupid idea in what way? I thought the concept of two geniuses teaming up in hell to create a super android was far more creative and sensical than Frieza being revived (Shenron couldn't revive him but somehow revived bits of him), training for 3 months and getting a color change that makes him as strong as a god.

- Frieza goes from ruthless, sadistic emperor of the universe to a complete joke who takes orders from others (Beerus). Comes to Earth for revenge, only to get his ass kicked by the saiyans and then gets brought back again only to have his ass kicked by Jiren. He spends almost the whole tournament Ho-Ho-Ho-ing from atop a rock. Sometimes it's better to not bring old characters back. Super is the perfect example of that. Unlike in Super, Frieza only had really small cameos in GT like in the movies and in DBZ filler.

- Don't see how the two are any different. RoF literally brings back the same character with the exact same design. With Super 17 at least they did something different. Super 17 isn't Android 17. As for new characters, Dr. Myuu was a more interesting character than the Koala bear minion who shoots Goku with a laser.

- Besides the better animation, the biggest difference between the two arcs is the emotional element. The relationship between 18 and 17 and 18 seeing her own brother kill her husband made for some dramatic, emotional moments. The only character that died in RoF was Piccolo and I honestly forgot about it because of how little I cared for it. Any potential consequences from that arc were magically reverted by Whis at the end anyway

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Re: Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

Post by MajinMan » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:04 pm

Timetraveller wrote:- Super 17 is a stupid idea in what way? I thought the concept of two geniuses teaming up in hell to create a super android was far more creative and sensical than Frieza being revived (Shenron couldn't revive him but somehow revived bits of him), training for 3 months and getting a color change that makes him as strong as a god.

- Frieza goes from ruthless, sadistic emperor of the universe to a complete joke who takes orders from others (Beerus). Comes to Earth for revenge, only to get his ass kicked by the saiyans and then gets brought back again only to have his ass kicked by Jiren. He spends almost the whole tournament Ho-Ho-Ho-ing from atop a rock. Sometimes it's better to not bring old characters back. Super is the perfect example of that. Unlike in Super, Frieza only had really small cameos in GT like in the movies and in DBZ filler.

- Don't see how the two are any different. RoF literally brings back the same character with the exact same design. With Super 17 at least they did something different. Super 17 isn't Android 17. As for new characters, Dr. Myuu was a more interesting character than the Koala bear minion who shoots Goku with a laser.

- Besides the better animation, the biggest difference between the two arcs is the emotional element. The relationship between 18 and 17 and 18 seeing her own brother kill her husband made for some dramatic, emotional moments. The only character that died in RoF was Piccolo and I honestly forgot about it because of how little I cared for it. Any potential consequences from that arc were magically reverted by Whis at the end anyway
- I don’t see how two scientists creating a second 17 and having it fuse with the first 17 is a great idea and makes any sense. It feels like complete nonsense. Freeza being revived because his army was falling apart and they wanted him back makes more sense. Freeza gaining all that power might be BS, but two 17’s fusing and becoming as strong as a Super Saiyan 4 is pretty much in the same tier.

- I don’t see how Freeza’s character was that different from his Namek self. He tortured Gohan ruthlessly and killed Piccolo. And him taking orders from Beerus all those years ago doesn’t ruin his character. Freeza got his ass kicked, but he still blew up the planet and won. If it wasn’t for Whis, Earth would be gone. The ToP Freeza is completely different, and I think you’re selling him completely short with the way you described him, but that’s another arc.

- Why does Freeza need a new design? That’s not even completely true because he had a new form with a new design. Super 17 being new doesn’t automatically make him better. Dr. Myuu was not introduced in this arc, but I will agree that he’s a more interesting character.

-Honestly, I never found the Super 17 arc to be too emotional. Kuririn dying was sad, yea, but other than that nothing really got to me. I can’t feel for 17 in GT because he was never really introduced properly.
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Re: Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

Post by Timetraveller » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:17 am

MajinMan wrote:
Timetraveller wrote:- Super 17 is a stupid idea in what way? I thought the concept of two geniuses teaming up in hell to create a super android was far more creative and sensical than Frieza being revived (Shenron couldn't revive him but somehow revived bits of him), training for 3 months and getting a color change that makes him as strong as a god.

- Frieza goes from ruthless, sadistic emperor of the universe to a complete joke who takes orders from others (Beerus). Comes to Earth for revenge, only to get his ass kicked by the saiyans and then gets brought back again only to have his ass kicked by Jiren. He spends almost the whole tournament Ho-Ho-Ho-ing from atop a rock. Sometimes it's better to not bring old characters back. Super is the perfect example of that. Unlike in Super, Frieza only had really small cameos in GT like in the movies and in DBZ filler.

- Don't see how the two are any different. RoF literally brings back the same character with the exact same design. With Super 17 at least they did something different. Super 17 isn't Android 17. As for new characters, Dr. Myuu was a more interesting character than the Koala bear minion who shoots Goku with a laser.

- Besides the better animation, the biggest difference between the two arcs is the emotional element. The relationship between 18 and 17 and 18 seeing her own brother kill her husband made for some dramatic, emotional moments. The only character that died in RoF was Piccolo and I honestly forgot about it because of how little I cared for it. Any potential consequences from that arc were magically reverted by Whis at the end anyway
- I don’t see how two scientists creating a second 17 and having it fuse with the first 17 is a great idea and makes any sense. It feels like complete nonsense. Freeza being revived because his army was falling apart and they wanted him back makes more sense. Freeza gaining all that power might be BS, but two 17’s fusing and becoming as strong as a Super Saiyan 4 is pretty much in the same tier.

- I don’t see how Freeza’s character was that different from his Namek self. He tortured Gohan ruthlessly and killed Piccolo. And him taking orders from Beerus all those years ago doesn’t ruin his character. Freeza got his ass kicked, but he still blew up the planet and won. If it wasn’t for Whis, Earth would be gone. The ToP Freeza is completely different, and I think you’re selling him completely short with the way you described him, but that’s another arc.

- Why does Freeza need a new design? That’s not even completely true because he had a new form with a new design. Super 17 being new doesn’t automatically make him better. Dr. Myuu was not introduced in this arc, but I will agree that he’s a more interesting character.

-Honestly, I never found the Super 17 arc to be too emotional. Kuririn dying was sad, yea, but other than that nothing really got to me. I can’t feel for 17 in GT because he was never really introduced properly.
- Two scientists creating a second 17 is a great idea because it's the collaboration of a brilliant scientist from Earth and a brilliant scientist from outside Earth, something that had never been done before in DB. It makes about as much sense as a human scientist creating cyborgs capable of fighting SSB, a God of Destruction and fighting Jiren who's stronger than a GoD. Toriyama's not known for writing stories that make sense. Whether you agree or not, it's still better than just straight up bringing back old villains.

- Again Android 17 in Super by himself is much stronger than Super 17 and GT takes place after EoZ. GT power scaling made made more sense than in DBS. Also Super 17 is much weaker than SS4. Only reason he fights on par with him is because he absorbed a kamehameha from SS4 Goku who uses a strategy like he did against Yakon to try to beat him.

At least you admitted that the Super 17 saga does a few things better. If you were compare both arcs Rof and Super17 properly you'd probably find the Super 17 arc had more pros even if they're both bad by dbz standards

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Re: Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:36 am

Dragon Ball
Pros: Love the cast of characters, really funny (except for the nose-bleed humour, that gets run into the fucking ground real quick), lots of grounded fight scenes with cool choreography, the tournaments were always a ton of fun, love the emphasis on adventure here and that god damn catchy as fuck opening.
Cons: The nose-bleed humour, some of the filler was completely forgettable (I actually can't remember how the anime wrapped up), most of the villains didn't leave much of an impact on me with the exception of Piccolo Jr.

Dragon Ball Z
Pros: The twist that Goku's an alien, the unforgettable villains, the Super Saiyan transformation, Vegeta... just... Vegeta, the big fights, Gohan going to high school, the Buu arc, those moments (Kamehameha vs Galick Gun, father-son Kamehameha, Vegeta's respect towards Goku, Goku defeating Kid Buu etc.), Future Trunks and Goku's whole arc of accepting his Saiyan heritage.
Cons: The filler is damn near unbearable and the dragged out shit is ridiculous (Kai fixes this so that's my go-to for watching Z), all those island fights in the Android arc that didn't seem to end, so many side characters just don't really do much after the Saiyan arc, Planet Namek is ugly and the constant "Goku is incapacitated/not here, let's hold off the villain for now until he recovers/arrives".

Dragon Ball GT
Pros: It's funny at times, Super Saiyan 4 looks cool, I like the settings such as the New Planet Tuffle, lots of the designs look cool like Super Android 17, I like the music, I love the opening, I love the endings and the ending scene of Episode 64 is touching.
Cons: It's fucking boring. That's the absolute last thing I would want to say about something Dragon Ball related.

Dragon Ball Super
Pros: Some of the best animation in the series, definitely the funniest series, really like the world-building, when the fights are good they're gooood, the Future Trunks arc kicks ass, Goku Black is the best villain, the slice-of-life episodes are wonderful, love the new cast of characters (Hit's mah boy), most of the endings are wonderful (ending 10 is the best), Ultra Instinct, Ultimate Battle is the best insert song (fight me) and Sumitomo's score for the Future Trunks arc and onwards is fantastic.
Cons: Some of the worst animation in the series, one of the rockiest starts I think I've ever seen a show go through, the Resurrection 'F' retelling straight up sucks, I hate how much they overdo Goku's child-like demeanour (especially in the Future Trunks arc), Piccolo gets shafted hard in the Champa arc, it's all set during a time skip, lots of episodes feel disconnected from one another due to the writing and Episode 89.

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Re: Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

Post by KBABZ » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:42 pm

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:(I actually can't remember how the anime wrapped up)
It was a five episode arc where Goku and Chi-Chi had to find the Bansho Fan for real so they could put out a fire at Ox-King's castle so they save Chi-Chi's wedding dress and thus the wedding.

Pros: Goku and Chi-Chi having an actual sizeable adventure together, lots of Journey to the West references and elements, ends with a direct callout to DBZ in the Funi dub
Cons: THE PLOT IS ABOUT SAVING A WEDDING DRESS FFS

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Re: Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

Post by ABED » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:51 pm

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:most of the villains didn't leave much of an impact on me with the exception of Piccolo Jr.
There's literally Piccolo Daimao staring you right in the face. Also, DB tends to have more antagonists than outright villains, which was a nice mix.
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Re: Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

Post by Dragon Sponge » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:24 pm

Dragon Ball Original Anime

I do view DB & DBZ as one Series, but instead of giving pro & contra to the whole original Show i decided to split the Series into 3 Eras which i will rate individually.

1. The Adventure Era, from Episode 1 to 78 (Son Goku Arc & Red Ribbon Arc)

Pro: Has the most Adventure content of the Series, the Series and its ideas are still fresh at this point, very lighthearted & lots of comedy, can still be serious if it needs to be, Ki Blasts are rare & special here, most fighters have unique fighting styles here, very creative techniques, has two very different tournaments (21st & Babas tournament), the world is big and the locations have lots of variety, great contributions from non fighters, a truckload of awesome tunes by Kikuchi, lots of cool Insert Songs, main villains are not uber powerful but can still be menacing, pretty much the whole team was relevant in the Son Goku Arc, very well intergrated filler during the Son Goku Arc, the Son Goku Arc also has the best pacing of the Original Series.
Contra: The huge amount of sexual jokes can be hit or miss depending on the viewer, Goku might have a bit to much curpstomp victories, the Red Ribbon Arc can drag sometimes in the Anime, some of the Red Ribbon Arc filler can be hit or miss, while still being useful the supporting cast gets a bit too much overshadowed by Goku in the Red Ribbon Arc, and Oolong does practcally nothing in the RR Arc.

2. The Action Adventure Era, from Episode 79 to 260 (Piccolo Arc, Saiyan Arc & Freezer Arc)

Pro: Has a great mix between Action & Adventure (moreso in the Anime than the Manga), Human fighters were still relevant and had great contributions, great teamwork moments, powerful super villians that are a thread to the whole world are introduced, also the stakes were raised to a dramatic degree, for the first time main characters were killed and even Shenlong & the Dragon Balls weren´t save, might have the strongest storytelling in the Series, characters grow up during timeskips and become better fighters, flying gets introduced during this era, Ki blasts get more common but arent't too overused outside of maybe Freezer Arc, has still its fair share of unique fighting styles, the universe gets greatly expanded & locations are still varied (outside of Namek) & wastelands are still fresh during the Pic. & Sai. Arc, outside of the Freezer Arc the big fights are pretty well paced (for the most part), great filler that adds to the characters & the adventure, great training filler, events during timeskips are covered (like: Gokus world journey or Gokus wedding), the Piccolo Arc Bookends with two Tenkaichis (22th & 23th ones) has still a lot of great tunes from Kikuchi, Super Saiyain is still something special in the Freezer Arc, improved some lacking parts from the Manga,
Contra: Has its fair share of wasted potencial (Chichi, Gohans Sword, Chaiotzu), has its moments of hit or miss filler and drawn out parts, Muten Roshi dosen't fight anymore after the Pic. Arc and is not very active anymore, Toei Animation added a Z to the Title at the second Opening starting from Episode 154 and marketed the Anime as two Series from that point on, Namek looks mostly the same everwhere & has very few unique locations, most enemies on Namek are only defeated by Goku & Vegeta (outside of weak Soldiers like Banan & Sui), outside of the wedding dress filler & two Movies Gokus monkstaff isen't used anymore after the Pic. Arc (exept for connecting Karin Tower with the lookout), Yajirobi dosen´t follow to Namek, outside of the Pic. Arc (& the Mystical adventure Movie) Oolong & Puar don´t transform anymore, some great tunes from this Era could have been used a bit more, pacing in the Anime gets worse during the Frez. Arc and hits Rock Bottom during the Freezer fight.

3. The Action Era from Episode 261 to 444 (Cell & Buu Arc)

Pro: Has lots of cool transformations, features lots of twits, does at times something different, characters grow again during & between the Arcs, the Cell Arc features timetravel, the Buu Arc expands the afterlife & cosmos of the DB universe, found still some use for Tenshinhan & Krillin, some nice filler stuff, has good slice of life moments, the Buu Arc bookends again with two Tenkaichis (25th & 28th ones), has still a lot of good Kikuchi songs (even though many here might not have the same punch previous tunes had, the Cell Arc has parts that are well paced, Mr. Satan (a non Super Human) makes great contributions, Cell Arc is strongly connected to the past, Buu Arc brings back lots of comedy, main villians are pretty unique in their first form (Imperfect Cell/Fat Buu), the Anime improoved some rushed or lacking parts in the Manga.
Contra: Has not much adventure in it (aside from quest for the pearl filler, maybe the hunt after Cell or Buus inside story),
The Dragon Balls are not the focus of the mainstory anymore, the series becomes the Super Saiyan Show and human fighters gets too much overshadowed by the aliens, Humans were mostly used as canon fodder & had only few fights, Yamcha was treated very bad in the Cell Arc, Yajirobi is either the just beandaddy or just does nothing, Chaotzu joins Oolong & Puars league of the retired main characters, hit or miss filler (again), also Garlic Jr. filler Battle is too drawn out, the Cell Arc also has some dragging parts, the time travel (while cool) has many holes and its weird rules could be explained better,i miss some ealier tunes in this Era,the main villians later transform into something more generic (Perfect Cell/Super Buu),the fighting styles are rather generic here, aside from the afterlife filler tournament, the Buu Arc tournaments are pretty disapointing, even stronger non Saiyan Characters are wasted in the Buu Arc (Cyborg 18), something more with Videl could have been done, the Buu Arc might have the worst pacing in the Original Series.

Dragon Ball GT (i need to watch GT someday again to get a more clear opinion on it, as of now i would say:)

Pro: Has some new & fresh ideas, adventure returns, space & new Planets get explored, Super Saiyan 4 looks different than the other 3 forms, Goku gets his tail back + Great Ape returns, The Dragon Balls play again a bigger role in the story, having the DBs as final villians as an interesting concept, soundtrack from Tokonaga is good, no huge dragging points.
Contra: Donsen't execute its concepts too well, Goku becomming a Kid again is hit or miss, him staying like that for the whole Series even more, no Kikuchi tracks were remixed, Tenshinhan & Yamcha became walk-ons and Krillins only big contribution was to die (again), Super 17 Arc hasen't the best ideas.

Dragon Ball Super

Pro: nice new characters, nice slice of life episodes, Gohan & Videl are a sweet couple, i would say the Battle of Gods retelling wasen't that bad, lots of comedy, Human characters get better used, Muten Roshi is a fighter again, Cyborg 17 finally became a member of the Dragon Team, Future Truncks returns, has again two very different tournaments, Sumitomos score is okay & gets better later on, Red Super Saiyan God looks a bit more creative.
Contra: Storytelling could be better, Trunks, Goten & Maron dosen't seem to age, timespot dosen't help the suspense, hit or miss sidestories, time travel has even more holes, Future Trunks Arc could have a more satisfying ending, the revival of F retelling should have added Yamcha & Chiaotzu and also should use them better in general, Buu wasen't handled that well, Tenshinhan wasen't treated that good in the Tournament of Power Arc & could have done some more in the actual tournament (still way better than in the Super Manga), Goku is a bit too Goofy & Battle hungry, aside from Chala head chala there were no other remixes of old tracks.

Dragon Ball Kai (i have only seen parts of Kai and no intension to watch it, with exeption of fanedits that readded the Kikuchi where they belong, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcyjcILnakk )

Pro: Could be recomended to Z only fans, gave the english speaking fans a better Dub for the Z stuff that could technically be combined with the Funi Z Dub to improove the english Dub of the original Series, atleast improoved the pacing of Z era Arcs, atleast some pieces from Kikuchi returned retroactivly.
Contra: Gets called a faithfull to Manga adaption but skipped a whole quarter of it, replaced Kikuchis soundtrack with Yamamotos rip off score only to be brought back in very limited form, Kai the final Chapters replaced Kikuchi again this time with sumitomo, could have reunited DB & DBZ back into one Series but was a milking out of Z, some redrawn scenes that clash with original artstyle, seems to me more like a cashgrab than well intended remaster.

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Re: Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:13 pm

Bump since Super has ended.

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Re: Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:31 pm

Dragon Sponge wrote:[ atleast some pieces from Kikuchi returned retroactivly.
To me that was more of a con because it was poorly used it made me hate the Kikuchi score until I actually watch DBZ with it and realized the score was good just limited and poorly used by Kai. Which is weird because even as a kid I loved the Kikuchi score when it was used on Dragon Ball when that aired on Toonami in 2000 and even then knew I was listening to a much higher quality score than what I was getting in DBZ.
Contra: Gets called a faithfull to Manga adaption but skipped a whole quarter of it, replaced Kikuchis soundtrack with Yamamotos rip off score only to be brought back in very limited form
I think they did Dragon Ball right the first time it didn't really need a recut. It had its filler but not to the extent as Z did and the added stuff didn't ruin the pacing and re-watch value like Z's did. I get what you're saying; it was advertised as truer to the manga but skipped the first 1/4th. False advertising and what not. But Z needed to be fixed not DB.



Kai the final Chapters replaced Kikuchi again this time with sumitomo
Wasn't that to have it fit more with Dragon Ball Super since Sumitomo also scored that? It felt like Dragon Ball>DBZ>DBGT was one canon and then DBK>DBS was another I guess. I'm suprised Toei didn't rerelease the first Kai series with Sumitomo's score instead of the poorly placed Kikuchi score.

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Re: Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

Post by Dragon Sponge » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:39 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Dragon Sponge wrote:[ atleast some pieces from Kikuchi returned retroactivly.
To me that was more of a con because it was poorly used it made me hate the Kikuchi score until I actually watch DBZ with it and realized the score was good just limited and poorly used by Kai. Which is weird because even as a kid I loved the Kikuchi score when it was used on Dragon Ball when that aired on Toonami in 2000 and even then knew I was listening to a much higher quality score than what I was getting in DBZ.
Yeah they didn´t made too good use of it, but it was also just a small Pro point because i hate it that they replaced the score at all.
Contra: Gets called a faithfull to Manga adaption but skipped a whole quarter of it, replaced Kikuchis soundtrack with Yamamotos rip off score only to be brought back in very limited form
I think they did Dragon Ball right the first time it didn't really need a recut. It had its filler but not to the extent as Z did and the added stuff didn't ruin the pacing and re-watch value like Z's did. I get what you're saying; it was advertised as truer to the manga but skipped the first 1/4th. False advertising and what not. But Z needed to be fixed not DB.
The Saiyan Arc also didn´t had filler to the extend of the following Arcs and has therefore the best re-watch value of any Z Arc and I don´t think it would have needed to be fixed. Its usually the Freezer Arc where people start to get annoyed by the pacing, the Cell Arc has at times better pacing but also its sluggish parts like Vegeta & Trunks VS Cell and some of the Cell Games stuff. And the Buu Arc is mostly very padded out from beginning to end, so i would say only those three Arcs needed to be fixed. I admid that the Freezer Arc woulden´t make a very good starting point but atleast the Bardock flashback would have fit way more here & not introduce Freezer one Arc before his actual Arc. But honestly the pacing of DB could have been fixed without passing it of as a new Series. They could easily made Kai as a recut-feature on new DVD & Bluray releases that cuts down filler & dragging parts and keeps the Original BGM. Its pretty much that what IAmTheMilkMan is doing with his fan-recuts and if one single Fan is able to do it, then certainly a whole company can do it too. If they make a filler reduced, Manga accurate remaster, to introduce DB to a new Generation, then it should contain the full story of the Manga, regardless if the Anime adaptions of the earlier Arcs needed fixing or not. It makes it an incomplete product, and what is the point of a new remastered version, where have to watch a part the old nonremastered version to experience the whole Story? Its also just a disservice to ealier material and is another stunt from Toei that makes pre-Z DB seem like it didn´t matter, but Kai could have fixed that if they covered the whole Manga. I really think Dragon Ball deserves better than that.
Kai the final Chapters replaced Kikuchi again this time with sumitomo
Wasn't that to have it fit more with Dragon Ball Super since Sumitomo also scored that? It felt like Dragon Ball>DBZ>DBGT was one canon and then DBK>DBS was another I guess. I'm suprised Toei didn't rerelease the first Kai series with Sumitomo's score instead of the poorly placed Kikuchi score.
Sumitomo contributed first to DB with the score of Battle of Gods in 2013 and the plagiarism scandal happend in 2011 so Toei pratically rushed a limited amount Kikuchi pieces back into it with the wrong placement, and probably started just searching for a new composer. But the thing is, the change in soundtrack with the Buu Arc makes Kais soundtrack inconsistend, and like I said above, I dislike it anyway that they throw Kikuchis BGM out after bringing it back. I can tolerate Sumitomos score in Super & the new Movies since those are really new products with there own BGM while Buu Arc Kai is just a edited Version of the Original where Sumitomos Ost is just another replacement score like Faulconnar & Co. that disrespects the orginal soundtrack and tries to replace it. I would have liked it far more if Kenji Yamamoto just made arangements of the Original score, the kind of thing which you have in mostly every Videogame Remake, which would have also been better for his carreer. Also there is one thing the Original Kikuchi Score has over the others, cohesiveness. None of the replacments scores ever covered the whole Series. Peter Bering only scored the first 13 episodes of the Son Goku Arc, Shuki Levy & Co. just scored an edited Saiyan Arc & around half the Freeza Arc, Faulconnar Team only scorred later half of the Freeza Arc and the Cell & Buu Arc and Nathan Johnsen only scorred the Uncut Saiyan Arc & again first half of Freeza Arc. The Westwood soundtrack only covered the Cell & Buu Arcs, Yamamoto only scored the Kai versions of the Saiyan, Freeza & Cell Arcs and Sumitomo only scorred the Kai Buu Arc. Shunsuke Kikuchi is really the only composer who made a Soundtrack that covers the complete Series from Episode 1 to 444 and not just that, his Ost also grows alongside the whole Series, gets new pieces from time to time but also uses some older pieces very late into the game which makes the whole thing conncected. You don´t get that with any of the replacement scores and thats why his Soundtracks belongs to Dragon Ball and why its such a shame that this Ost gets so mishandled.

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Re: Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

Post by blain218 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:23 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Melee_Sovereign wrote:Dragon Ball Z:

Pros: Best art style. Best animation. Had blood. Developed a more mature and serious tone while also keeping the light hearted essence of Dragon Ball to an extant.
Uh....

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DB has always had its fair share of blood and violent scenes literally from the getgo, even back during its more "gag manga" period. That never really changes any from DB into Z.

Also beyond that, I think its flat out objectively incorrect that DB stops being about martial arts once it crosses over into Z. Or that Z is somehow more "serious" in tone than DB was before it. DB stops overwhelmingly focusing on gag humor around halfway through at the very absolute most (you can make a case for that happening even earlier if you want).

From the 22nd Budokai onward, DB is almost indistinguishable in any meaningful way from DBZ. Martial arts is ALWAYS the focus of the whole series from Goku's introduction and initial training all the way through to Boo's demise and Goku and Oob taking off from the Budokai stadium: the supernatural elements (which are also there and prominent from the getgo) simply become more and more increasingly pronounced. But that hardly starts all of a sudden once Raditz lands: that's a changeover that occurs and reaches its full fruition well long prior to that point.

The difference between DB and Z are nowhere NEAR as stark as people often make it sounds: really the "change" is gradual and wholly organic, and fully fleshes itself out well long prior to DBZ ever starting.
Thank you. I hate it when western fans act like Early DB and Z/Super are so different from each other when they are not. In Japan, the entire franchise is viewed as one same thing.

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Re: Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

Post by majinwarman » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:02 pm

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:Dragon Ball
Pros: Love the cast of characters, really funny (except for the nose-bleed humour, that gets run into the fucking ground real quick), lots of grounded fight scenes with cool choreography, the tournaments were always a ton of fun, love the emphasis on adventure here and that god damn catchy as fuck opening.
Cons: The nose-bleed humour, some of the filler was completely forgettable (I actually can't remember how the anime wrapped up), most of the villains didn't leave much of an impact on me with the exception of Piccolo Jr.

Dragon Ball Z
Pros: The twist that Goku's an alien, the unforgettable villains, the Super Saiyan transformation, Vegeta... just... Vegeta, the big fights, Gohan going to high school, the Buu arc, those moments (Kamehameha vs Galick Gun, father-son Kamehameha, Vegeta's respect towards Goku, Goku defeating Kid Buu etc.), Future Trunks and Goku's whole arc of accepting his Saiyan heritage.
Cons: The filler is damn near unbearable and the dragged out shit is ridiculous (Kai fixes this so that's my go-to for watching Z), all those island fights in the Android arc that didn't seem to end, so many side characters just don't really do much after the Saiyan arc, Planet Namek is ugly and the constant "Goku is incapacitated/not here, let's hold off the villain for now until he recovers/arrives".

Dragon Ball GT
Pros: It's funny at times, Super Saiyan 4 looks cool, I like the settings such as the New Planet Tuffle, lots of the designs look cool like Super Android 17, I like the music, I love the opening, I love the endings and the ending scene of Episode 64 is touching.
Cons: It's fucking boring. That's the absolute last thing I would want to say about something Dragon Ball related.

Dragon Ball Super
Pros: Some of the best animation in the series, definitely the funniest series, really like the world-building, when the fights are good they're gooood, the Future Trunks arc kicks ass, Goku Black is the best villain, the slice-of-life episodes are wonderful, love the new cast of characters (Hit's mah boy), most of the endings are wonderful (ending 10 is the best), Ultra Instinct, Ultimate Battle is the best insert song (fight me) and Sumitomo's score for the Future Trunks arc and onwards is fantastic.
Cons: Some of the worst animation in the series, one of the rockiest starts I think I've ever seen a show go through, the Resurrection 'F' retelling straight up sucks, I hate how much they overdo Goku's child-like demeanour (especially in the Future Trunks arc), Piccolo gets shafted hard in the Champa arc, it's all set during a time skip, lots of episodes feel disconnected from one another due to the writing and Episode 89.
I can agree with most of your statements here.
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Re: Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:13 pm

blain218 wrote:
Thank you. I hate it when western fans act like Early DB and Z/Super are so different from each other when they are not. In Japan, the entire franchise is viewed as one same thing.
To be fair that's mostly the fault of Funimation/Toonami/Saban/etc for trying to make Dragon Ball Z come off as an EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEMEEE hardcore punch your siblings in the face until they bleed and then karate chop your cousin in the throat type of show.

Like for a lot of US viewers this is Dragon Ball Z:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuFd5a_XLhc

And this is Dragon Ball:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT1Dp69D7q0&t=

And that's not counting that for all intents and purpose Dragon Ball was originally skipped in favor of Z so the more natural progression isn't in the mind of Western viewers. And again retaining the Kikuchi score for Dragon Ball but replacing Z's with the Nathan Johnson/Bruce Faulconer/Mark Menza stuff doesn't help..

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Re: Pros And Cons Of Each DB Series

Post by KBABZ » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:45 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:To be fair that's mostly the fault of Funimation/Toonami/Saban/etc for trying to make Dragon Ball Z come off as an EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEMEEE hardcore punch your siblings in the face until they bleed and then karate chop your cousin in the throat type of show.
I did notice when watching it on DVD that the 23rd TB arc and the late Daimao arc had more dub alterations than the other parts of the show, almost like Funimation did that on purpose as the show became more Z-like as it approached Raditz.

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