Dragon Ball's original ending is dark for a gag manga

[Attitudefan]

The title of the thread might be a tad misleading, but please hear me out with my thoughts below:

After perusing YouTube for a bit, watching random clips from the cyborg arc had me run into a comment that made me realize Dragon Ball isn't so happy by the end. It's actually quite ironic for a gag manga artist that Toriyama is, whom I believe claimed not to have the skill to set-up something gritty enough like the Bardock special, to have ended Dragon Ball on such a dystopian ending. What I am getting at is that the true ending for all the characters that we follow from the beginning end with all of them defeated by the Gero's creations. The continuation of Dragon Ball is only due to a shift in timeline, where the original characters' copies--split from the originals when Cell and Trunks time travel---are the ones we continue to follow from thereafter.

Ironically, again, people are known to joke about how death means little in Dragon Ball yet the true ending of the series is with all of the heroes passing on.

[90sDBZ]

When you look at it that way it is pretty dark, but I wouldn't go as far as calling the main timeline characters clones. I view both timelines as legitimate continuations for the original characters.

But yeah, the future timeline is pretty grim overall. It reminds me of the ending to Batman Beyond, which has most of the Justice League dead/gone and Bruce Wayne old and bitter and Gotham as crime filled as ever.

[KBABZ]

I agree, but the timeline is introduced under the idea that it acts as motivation to avoid it from happening (ie it was never intended to be an ending). To that point, even in the manga it has always been referred to as the Alternate Timeline, even though what we see play out in front of us should really be considered that.

[ABED]

When you look at it that way it is pretty dark, but I wouldn't go as far as calling the main timeline characters clones. I view both timelines as legitimate continuations for the original characters.

But yeah, the future timeline is pretty grim overall. It reminds me of the ending to Batman Beyond, which has most of the Justice League dead/gone and Bruce Wayne old and bitter and Gotham as crime filled as ever.

By Beyond's ending, are you talking about Epilogue?

[90sDBZ]

When you look at it that way it is pretty dark, but I wouldn't go as far as calling the main timeline characters clones. I view both timelines as legitimate continuations for the original characters.

But yeah, the future timeline is pretty grim overall. It reminds me of the ending to Batman Beyond, which has most of the Justice League dead/gone and Bruce Wayne old and bitter and Gotham as crime filled as ever.

By Beyond's ending, are you talking about Epilogue?

Its been years since I've seen Epilogue, but yeah. And also Batman Beyond in general actually. The whole show feels especially grim when you compare it to the first few seasons of Batman TAS, which while dark still had an element of hope and optimism about it. Bruce still seemed to have hope in him, like he still believed he would change Gotham someday. Starting from the revamped New Batman Adventures he became much colder, would rarely smile anymore, and would speak in his Batman voice even as Bruce. This continued going forward with Justice League and Batman Beyond, and by the time of epilogue he's like a different man to the one we once knew.

It's a sad ending for the character, but a realistic and effective one all the same.

[floofychan333]

Well, to be fair, Dragon Ball ceased to be a gag manga when Piccolo Daimao showed up and was steadily decreasing in humour even before then.

[ABED]

When you look at it that way it is pretty dark, but I wouldn't go as far as calling the main timeline characters clones. I view both timelines as legitimate continuations for the original characters.

But yeah, the future timeline is pretty grim overall. It reminds me of the ending to Batman Beyond, which has most of the Justice League dead/gone and Bruce Wayne old and bitter and Gotham as crime filled as ever.

By Beyond's ending, are you talking about Epilogue?

Its been years since I've seen Epilogue, but yeah. And also Batman Beyond in general actually. The whole show feels especially grim when you compare it to the first few seasons of Batman TAS, which while dark still had an element of hope and optimism about it. Bruce still seemed to have hope in him, like he still believed he would change Gotham someday. Starting from the revamped New Batman Adventures he became much colder, would rarely smile anymore, and would speak in his Batman voice even as Bruce. This continued going forward with Justice League and Batman Beyond, and by the time of epilogue he's like a different man to the one we once knew.

It's a sad ending for the character, but a realistic and effective one all the same.

THe Justice League isn't all dead, and Bruce isn't a broken shell of himself. There's just a new Justice League and Bruce has finally completely retired from crime fighting. He took on more of an Alfred like role. He's actually not bitter, he has a son, and he's more or less a caretaker. The story in black and white isn't what actually happened. It's quite a fitting end for Bruce. It's not happily ever after, but it's a happy ending. Crime never completely goes away, but there will always be someone there to take up the fight. I like it. It's optomistic without being sappy. To bring this around to DB, yes, the "original" timeline is grim, but it's not really an ending.

And DB didn't get grimmer. There was always humor, it just oscillated. Sometime there's more, sometimes less, depending on the needs of the story.

[Dr. Casey]

Well, to be fair, Dragon Ball ceased to be a gag manga when Piccolo Daimao showed up and was steadily decreasing in humour even before then.

Yeah, I think that Pilaf and the 21st Budokai are the only two story arcs where Dragon Ball could be considered a gag manga, and I'm not entirely sure the moniker fits even for those. The Red Ribbon arcs are fairly lighthearted adventure stories for the most part, but they're still meant to be genuinely exciting with comedy more of a secondary concern than a primary one, and the 22nd Budokai (despite still having a healthy sense of humor) is entirely too serious and earnest to be considered a 'gag manga' to any extent. By the time of the Cell arc, the manga had been pretty serious in overall tone for years.

[PacificOceanDub]

Man, this kind of blew my mind. I never really thought of it in the sense that the timeline in History of Trunks is really the “real” timeline for lack of a better term. Everything that happens in the main timeline post-Trunks is the result of Trunks tampering with time itself, therefore the main timeline is, by my account, really technically a “B” timeline.

If you can dig

[MasenkoHA]

But it wasn't Dragon Ball's original ending. It was just context for a story arc's narrative drive. The future son of Bulma and Vegeta comes to the present to prevent a duo of cyborgs from killing the Z-Warriors and conquering earth because Mr.Toriyama just watched Terminator or something.

[8000 Saiyan]

By Beyond's ending, are you talking about Epilogue?

Its been years since I've seen Epilogue, but yeah. And also Batman Beyond in general actually. The whole show feels especially grim when you compare it to the first few seasons of Batman TAS, which while dark still had an element of hope and optimism about it. Bruce still seemed to have hope in him, like he still believed he would change Gotham someday. Starting from the revamped New Batman Adventures he became much colder, would rarely smile anymore, and would speak in his Batman voice even as Bruce. This continued going forward with Justice League and Batman Beyond, and by the time of epilogue he's like a different man to the one we once knew.

It's a sad ending for the character, but a realistic and effective one all the same.

THe Justice League isn't all dead, and Bruce isn't a broken shell of himself. There's just a new Justice League and Bruce has finally completely retired from crime fighting. He took on more of an Alfred like role. He's actually not bitter, he has a son, and he's more or less a caretaker. The story in black and white isn't what actually happened. It's quite a fitting end for Bruce. It's not happily ever after, but it's a happy ending. Crime never completely goes away, but there will always be someone there to take up the fight. I like it. It's optomistic without being sappy. To bring this around to DB, yes, the "original" timeline is grim, but it's not really an ending.

And DB didn't get grimmer. There was always humor, it just oscillated. Sometime there's more, sometimes less, depending on the needs of the story.

Never liked the fact that they made Terry Bruce's son.

[Attitudefan]

I agree, but the timeline is introduced under the idea that it acts as motivation to avoid it from happening (ie it was never intended to be an ending). To that point, even in the manga it has always been referred to as the Alternate Timeline, even though what we see play out in front of us should really be considered that.

Man, this kind of blew my mind. I never really thought of it in the sense that the timeline in History of Trunks is really the “real” timeline for lack of a better term. Everything that happens in the main timeline post-Trunks is the result of Trunks tampering with time itself, therefore the main timeline is, by my account, really technically a “B” timeline.

If you can dig

Exactly, this is what I am getting at. The plot we see from Freeza on Earth onwards, is a B timeline. So, I'm honoured to blow your mind haha!

I wouldn't go as far as calling the main timeline characters clones. I view both timelines as legitimate continuations for the original characters.

Except, it is a copy. The plot of DBZ with Trunks going forward is a new thread, where the characters we follow become disassociated with the main timeline. Seeing Trunks means that his timeline had already played out first, meaning it happened and exists as Trunks exists. Altering a timeline is a copy, altered from the original. It's barely real for those who live in the original timeline, hence me calling the B timeline a copy.

Well, to be fair, Dragon Ball ceased to be a gag manga when Piccolo Daimao showed up and was steadily decreasing in humour even before then.

I feel that this is a bit besides the point. Toriyama is a self-proclaimed gag manga artist. Sure Dragon Ball is not a gag manga by the Cyborg arc, but it doesn't change the fact that Toriyama finds it difficult to write dark, gritty stories. Yet, he unknowingly ended the original timeline of Dragon Ball on a dark note. Just something I thought was amusing.

[sintzu]

Never liked the fact that they made Terry Bruce's son.

I think Return of the Joker is a more fitting ending to Bruce and Batman's story as I also didn't care for that JL episode.

[Doctor.]

The original timeline is Cell's which means that even future Trunks and likely Bulma (maybe even everyone on Earth) die too.

[Jackalope89]

When you look at it that way it is pretty dark, but I wouldn't go as far as calling the main timeline characters clones. I view both timelines as legitimate continuations for the original characters.

But yeah, the future timeline is pretty grim overall. It reminds me of the ending to Batman Beyond, which has most of the Justice League dead/gone and Bruce Wayne old and bitter and Gotham as crime filled as ever.

By Beyond's ending, are you talking about Epilogue?

Its been years since I've seen Epilogue, but yeah. And also Batman Beyond in general actually. The whole show feels especially grim when you compare it to the first few seasons of Batman TAS, which while dark still had an element of hope and optimism about it. Bruce still seemed to have hope in him, like he still believed he would change Gotham someday. Starting from the revamped New Batman Adventures he became much colder, would rarely smile anymore, and would speak in his Batman voice even as Bruce. This continued going forward with Justice League and Batman Beyond, and by the time of epilogue he's like a different man to the one we once knew.

It's a sad ending for the character, but a realistic and effective one all the same.

And, well, the whole BrucexBarbara thing was a major turn off for a lot of people back then.
Bruce Timm (one of the DCAU's creators) apparently didn't get that memo when he helped create the Killing Joke animated movie.

The DCAU had a lot of good stuff in it, and saw the rise of the WonderBat ship amongst more casual fans. But, like the Dragon Ball franchise, had its fair share of "ugh, why!?" moments as well.

[ABED]

Actually he knew that it was controversial back then, which is why they did it. I applaud storytellers for taking those sort of risks. We can debate whether the execution was good, but I like when storytellers risk alienating their audience with their choice, as long as they are playing fair. It's when they play things safe for far too long, like introducing transformation after transformation, that I lose interest.

The original timeline is dark but as others have pointed out, it wasn't a gag manga by that point.

[Vegeta_Sama]

Can you guys imagine if in a different timeline of our world, the story of Dragon Ball followed the original course of events, with the Androids destroying everything and killing everyone, leaving Trunks as a protagonist of the series, and the fixed timeline as the altetnative one? And the end of the story would be the Future Trunks arc (which could be called Black/Zamasu arc)?Would you like it?

[Attitudefan]

Can you guys imagine if in a different timeline of our world, the story of Dragon Ball followed the original course of events, with the Androids destroying everything and killing everyone, leaving Trunks as a protagonist of the series, and the fixed timeline as the altetnative one? And the end of the story would be the Future Trunks arc (which could be called Black/Zamasu arc)?Would you like it?

Why not like it? I think it would be a major change, but it would ground the series back after the Freeza arc. The issue now is how trying to go forward, you need characters stronger than Freeza, who are stronger than Cell, who are stronger than Buu. However, just like the mythos of the first super saiyan, have them die off. It's too much power to be able for the natural course to continue, so kill them off.

Heck, having a young Trunks in place of Gohan being the original replacement for Goku would have been alienating, but very interesting. The juxtaposition that it's Vegeta's son that becomes the main character rather than Goku could create interesting narratives to use. Instead, we got Goku living forever with sequels that are all "Goku Time." That, and now we have insane power scaling.

[Shaddy]

While what the original timeline could have been ends catastrophically, I think it's a bit misleading to title this as "Dragon Ball's original ending is dark", since even if the timeline we see is an altered one, it's still the same characters and world, and the prime area which the storyline takes place. It's not like Back to the Future, where they gloss over the fact that Marty literally erases his entire family to replace them with people who happen to be successful and that we should therefore interpret as "better". This timeline was always one to contain the people and world it currently has, as Trunks never overwrites his own time when travelling.

Even still, it's only an assumption to say that it would necessarily have turned out the same had Trunks not showed up. It's never explained why the 17 and 18 of the main timeline end up being people instead of monsters, or why Goku's heart virus hit at a different point regardless of him not taking the medication. But those factors don't necessarily exist as a result of a butterfly effect via Trunks. I think it'd make for an interesting fanfic to show how the Android/Cell arc would still have been different had no time travel occurred.