Why aren't the Hunt for Dragonballs and Red Ribbon Army Arc not as well received?

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Re: Why aren't the Hunt for Dragonballs and Red Ribbon Army Arc not as well received?

Post by Pirina_Fusee » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:38 pm

All the tournaments in pre-Z are gold.

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Re: Why aren't the Hunt for Dragonballs and Red Ribbon Army Arc not as well received?

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:01 am

Pirina_Fusee wrote:All the tournaments in pre-Z are gold.
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Honestly, even the Z tournaments are pretty great; the afterlife tournament is a fun breather after the intensity of the Cell games, which harkens back to the style and feel of the older tournaments -- especially the 21st Tenkaichi, which it shares its very low stakes, laid-back attitude, and focus on characterisation and fun gimmicks in its fights with -- and honestly, it might be my favourite filler arc in the franchise. Then we have the Boo arc's tournament, which takes a lot of cues from the 22nd and 23rd Tenkaichi arcs, with the tournament being a backdrop for some somewhat serious goings-on with some pretty high stakes. And of course, the Cell Games was a pretty much perfect conclusion to the Cell arc's story.

And even outside of the original 1984-1995 Dragon Ball story, the tournament episode in the Super #17 arc was a fun little distraction in GT, and the Universe 6 Tournament was probably the strongest arc in Super, despite its many missteps, most notably its failure to really do anything new with the formula.
CWCprime wrote:The 21st Tenkaichi Budokai arc is probably my favorite arc in all of Dragon Ball, if not then definitely in my top 3.
Yeah. For me, there is no, has never been, and will never be, any doubt in my mind that it's my favourite. It's probably not the best arc in the series, but it's definitely my favourite. Watching that arc just makes me happy in a way few things do. If you wanted me to explain why I enjoy Dragon Ball, this arc basically sums it all up; it's got goofy jokes, it's got strong characterisation, it's got fun fights with creative villains, it looks great, it's scored really nicely, it's got an overall style that just exudes fun... Honestly, I could probably write a whole essay about why and how much I love this arc. Maybe I will someday.
CWCprime wrote:Red Ribbon Army ranks up there for me too. The only part I felt it started to drag just a little was the pirate cave sequence and the Dr. Slump crossover, but even those parts don't hold a candle to the amount of dragging that occurs in the Dragon Ball Z anime.
Agreed, kind of. I still maintain that the pirate cave sequence was amazing, and I always loved the Dr. Slump crossover, even though I've never watched/read any Dr. Slump. But, yes, I do agree.
Y'know, actually, I think Red Ribbon is the #1 thing that could have benefitted from if Kai had covered the whole original story, as just some small amounts of clever re-cutting could probably turn it from a slightly draggy, but otherwise rather excellent arc, into an undisputable absolute classic worthy of a #1 spot. After all, that is what happened with the Freeza arc in Kai, just with the original's dragging being to a significantly greater extent, to the point where I'd say the middle of the Namek/Freeza arc of original Z could be argued as one of the series' weakest points.
CWCprime wrote:The Hunt for the Dragon Balls I have almost no problems with as an arc. It's just perhaps not as memorable as the others, is all.
I actually disagree here. It's highly memorable for being the absolute essence of the early DB style. When people wrongly assume the original series was a stream of silliness, weird adventures, and other such laid-back goofiness, that's because -- assuming they've tried it at all -- they've only sampled this arc. And the thing is, that is a lot of why it's memorable. Taking a cue from one member on Kanzenshuu that I forget the identity of(I think it may have been KBABZ. Apologies to whoever it was, regardless), I refer to everything up to the end of the Uranai Baba arc as the "Adventure era". These first 13 episodes are the most comedic and adventure-focused part of this era, with the 21st Tenkaichi introducing the martial arts elements that became an integral part of the franchise's identity for the rest of its existence, and the more action elements brought on by this brought about the Red Ribbon arc, which very much defined what Dragon Ball was.
But, these first 13 episodes stand as an odd time capsule of the franchise's brief existence before it went all-in on martial arts and action. And for that reason, it's memorable for being rather different to the rest of the run. And that's not a bad thing for this first arc, or for the rest of the run, it just means this first run stands out more.

So, no, I don't think the first arc is unmemorable, I think it's highly memorable; not only due to its wit and charm, but due to how distinct it is.
CWCprime wrote:I think a possible reason the arcs may not get much appreciation is because they (Hunt for Dragon Balls and the Tenkaichi Budokai arcs especially) are low stakes compared to other arcs, especially Z-era arcs. That's probably also the reason some people disliked the Universe 6 arc. Honestly, I wish Dragon Ball would do more low stakes stuff, because that's where I feel the characters and the fun can shine most.
It is quite funny, that. I consider the U6 arc to be the strongest arc of Super. It has many of Super's usual problems -- too much focus on Goku and Vegeta, especially Goku, and the side-characters that are involved are sidelined to a massive degree, the fights drag out too long, the animation can be wonky at times, the characterisation is a little awkward, it's too derivative of the stuff it's a callback to -- but it's not a bad arc by any means, and overall it's a fun thing, that really shows that modern Dragon Ball is completely capable of putting together a strong, straightforward, and really fun arc. In Dragon Ball or Z, it would have probably stood out as a pretty weak arc, but as a follow-up to Resurrection F, Battle Of Gods, and the small filler episodes that happened around that time, the U6 tournament is a pretty good start to Super's original material.
KBABZ wrote:All agreed. Why has nobody ever talked about how Chi-Chi being in a metal thong for a 10 year old not the most sickening, pedophilic design design ever??? (the cape's pretty cool though)
I think, in theory, it could be a decent poke at how exploititive and silly such outfits are, since it's pretty creepy to put that on a child, and without a sexy woman underneath the skimpy outfit, the mind isn't distracted from the fact that it's a super-impractical piece of armour, but unfortunately, satire of that nature often ends up failing on the grounds that it's just creepy.
Thankfully, it is just the two episodes in the arc, though unfortunately they didn't switch her outfit around for her next appearance, over in the Red Ribbon arc.
KBABZ wrote:On the 21st Tournament, I like it a fair bit, because similar to the Pilaf Arc, it stands out even among the other Dragon Ball arcs. How it differs from 22 and 23 is that the emphasis is much more on "what move are they gonna use next??", and each fighter has a clearer gimmick about them, be it Bacterian's vulgarness, Ranfan's exploitation of her own sexuality, and the monstrousness of Giran. The 22nd still has that a bit with Man-Wolf, but it otherwise takes things more seriously, particularly now that Goku is taking this whole fighting thing super-seriously (compare Goku's "What move are we gonna try next? ^_^" approach to his level-headed assertion of the Jackie/Tien fight).

Of course, it's a saga of two halves as well. What the 21st has that the 22nd and 23rd do not is the training with Roshi, and this is some top-tier stuff from Dragon Ball. I ADORE the low-key, down to earth approach for these episodes and they do a surprising amount of world-building as the characters spend time in the traditional China aspect of the world. To say nothing about the training itself. It's also where we see Goku adopt his famous outfit for the first time, and it's here we learn why it's so important, and why it's significant that he sticks with it even through the latest Super episodes.

And, the lessons learned in this arc reverberate and apply to the entire rest of the series. Goku's love of fighting, focus on training and never stopping were taught to him here by Roshi and Jackie. And as much as Toriyama never plans ahead, Frieza's ultimate defeat (and the exploration of that in RoF) can be traced back to here. When Frieza is defeated, Goku specifically calls out that Frieza never imagined that there'd be someone more powerful than him (and RoF reveals he never trained a day in his life), and that gets his ass handed to him. Guess where Goku learned that? In the very second arc of the series.
Indeed.

I always really loved the fact Roshi suited up as Jackie Chun to fight Goku; the scene where he explains why he's doing it to Nam is so great in so many ways, and really makes the whole Goku vs Jackie fight so much better; Goku is the protagonist, you want him to win... And yet, Roshi absolutely has a good point, and really, you want him to win... It's really great, because both fighters deserve the win, and in the end, the whole conclusion is immensely satisfying, and while it has its serious points, it never really compromises the tone of the arc.
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Re: Why aren't the Hunt for Dragonballs and Red Ribbon Army Arc not as well received?

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:25 am

OhHiRenan wrote:For the first arc, I figure it’s because Toriyama is still finding his footing with the series. The jokes don’t always land, the fights aren’t anything writing home about, and the character work pales in comparison to the rest of the series.

The Red Ribbon Army feels like a massive step back for the series. Toriyama struck a great balance of action, comedy, and martial arts philosophy with the 21st Budokai only to fall back into old habits with the next arc. The RRA feels like a regression in every regard, and it drags like crazy in the first half. Someone made a comment up above in reference to Namek, but at least characters developed on Namek and there were constant stakes. The Red Ribbon Army arc is only tense when’s TaoPaiPai is around and nobody gets a chance to grow because Goku’s effectively the only active character. It’s definitely an original series lowpoint.

But that's not a fair argument to make because, even during the R&R arc, Dragon Ball was still very much a gag manga. So it never really took itself that seriously.

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Re: Why aren't the Hunt for Dragonballs and Red Ribbon Army Arc not as well received?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:43 am

Robo4900 wrote:Y'know, actually, I think Red Ribbon is the #1 thing that could have benefitted from if Kai had covered the whole original story, as just some small amounts of clever re-cutting could probably turn it from a slightly draggy, but otherwise rather excellent arc, into an undisputable absolute classic worthy of a #1 spot. After all, that is what happened with the Freeza arc in Kai, just with the original's dragging being to a significantly greater extent, to the point where I'd say the middle of the Namek/Freeza arc of original Z could be argued as one of the series' weakest points.
I can attest to this, I've done it! When editing down this arc and watching the episodes back there's a much greater sense of momentum going on that carries you through the story, and places like the Pirate section work so much better when you're not fooling around with half-hour submarine launching sequences and Pirate Robot tomfoolery. Baba as well works a bit better when you move through the fights more quickly so that the TB parallels and pacing aren't so obvious.
Robo4900 wrote:It's highly memorable for being the absolute essence of the early DB style. When people wrongly assume the original series was a stream of silliness, weird adventures, and other such laid-back goofiness, that's because -- assuming they've tried it at all -- they've only sampled this arc. And the thing is, that is a lot of why it's memorable. Taking a cue from one member on Kanzenshuu that I forget the identity of(I think it may have been KBABZ. Apologies to whoever it was, regardless), I refer to the entire run up to the end of the Uranai Baba arc as the "Adventure era". These first 13 episodes are the most comedic and adventure-focused part of this era, with the 21st Tenkaichi introducing the martial arts elements that became an integral part of the franchise's identity for the rest of its existence, and the more action elements brought on by this brought about the Red Ribbon arc, which very much defined what Dragon Ball was.
But, these first 13 episodes stand as an odd time capsule of the franchise's brief existence before it went all-in on martial arts and action. And for that reason, it's memorable for being rather different to the rest of the run. And that's not a bad thing for this first arc, or for the rest of the run, it just means this first run stands out more.

So, no, I don't think the first arc is unmemorable, I think it's highly memorable; not only due to its wit and charm, but due to how distinct it is.
I don't think I've ever actually called it that, but I'm flattered that you think it was me! It sounds similar to how Dragon Ball Colour did it, where that same stretch plus the 22nd Tournament is called the Boyhood Arc. For my part I also include the Daimao arc and lump it all as Kid Goku Nadolny goodness. I always get a little sad when I hit the first 23d Tournament episode and realize that Kid Goku and Nadolny are gone, to be replaced with adult Goku and Sean's extremely awkward performance as Goku. One of the other reasons why Dragon Ball would have benefited from a Kai take so that Sean can put in the same amazing performances he did in Z Kai. Of course that'd mean losing Nadolny for Clinkenbeard, which is why I did my thing...

Anyway, as I said earlier, the very first arc is unique among all manga-based arcs in that it's rather episodic.
Robo4900 wrote:
KBABZ wrote:All agreed. Why has nobody ever talked about how Chi-Chi being in a metal thong for a 10 year old not the most sickening, pedophilic design design ever??? (the cape's pretty cool though)
I think, in theory, it could be a decent poke at how exploititive and silly such outfits are, since it's pretty creepy to put that on a child, and without a sexy woman underneath the skimpy outfit, the mind isn't distracted from the fact that it's a super-impractical piece of armour, but unfortunately, satire of that nature often ends up failing on the grounds that it's just creepy.
Thankfully, it is just the two episodes in the arc, though unfortunately they didn't switch her outfit around for her next appearance, over in the Red Ribbon arc.
Don't forget that she also had a brief cameo in the Daimao arc as Goku is on his way to Central City, and I believe there was a Buu-era flashback Chi-Chi has that goes back to her childhood years. The helmet along with the cape is cool though. It'd be interesting to see a more modest and child-appropriate redesign using the same general aesthetic, looking like a feminine Ox-King design.
Robo4900 wrote:I always really loved the fact Roshi suited up as Jackie Chun to fight Goku; the scene where he explains why he's doing it to Nam is so great in so many ways, and really makes the whole Goku vs Jackie fight so much better; Goku is the protagonist, you want him to win... And yet, Roshi absolutely has a good point, and really, you want him to win... It's really great, because both fighters deserve the win, and in the end, the whole conclusion is immensely satisfying, and while it has its serious points, it never really compromises the tone of the arc.
And of course the script gets flipped at the very end where Goku still "wins" by inadvertently spending 9/10ths of Roshi's prize money on dinner!
kemuri07 wrote:even during the R&R arc, Dragon Ball was still very much a gag manga. So it never really took itself that seriously.
I don't think it's fair to call Dragon Ball a pure gag manga during the Red Ribbon arc and beyond. Thanks to the 21st Tournament, the series has a newfound focus on fighting and martial arts, which lends a lot of action to the proceedings. And with a few areas such as Ninja Murasaki, Penguin Village and fighting Baba's early fighters, it doesn't often go back to pure gag-based storylines and setups. To say nothing of the RRA Arc's better grasp on adventure So an action-gag manga?

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Re: Why aren't the Hunt for Dragonballs and Red Ribbon Army Arc not as well received?

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:11 am

I think you're right--action-gag probably describes DB at that point.

But what I meant, and the reason why I don't think it's particularly far to compare R&R to the later DB arcs and especially anything in DBZ because the tone is still fairly reminiscent of early dragonball. You're right, post-21st Tenkaichi, DB begins to fully embrace its martial arts styles, but I none of the fights during R&R really suggest any danger for Goku. It's just an excuse for Goku to go on another adventure and meet a wide variety of weird characters.

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Re: Why aren't the Hunt for Dragonballs and Red Ribbon Army Arc not as well received?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:43 am

kemuri07 wrote:I think you're right--action-gag probably describes DB at that point.

But what I meant, and the reason why I don't think it's particularly far to compare R&R to the later DB arcs and especially anything in DBZ because the tone is still fairly reminiscent of early dragonball. You're right, post-21st Tenkaichi, DB begins to fully embrace its martial arts styles, but I none of the fights during R&R really suggest any danger for Goku. It's just an excuse for Goku to go on another adventure and meet a wide variety of weird characters.
Oh I agree that the RRA Arc can't quite compare to the later ones; the 22nd TB and Piccolo arcs have a rather serious angle that lasts a lot longer than it did with Tao. But at the same time I don't think it's quite fair to compare it to the opening Pilaf arc, or even the 21st TB, because those are much more overtly focused on jokes than I feel the RRA Arc is. There's more... contemplation? That third exploration angle that permeates it all when it's not making jokes or engaging in fight scenes.

I think what separates the two is that the Pilaf Arc, as I said before, feels very episodic, almost village-of-the-week, and aside from the early chapters/episodes we don't really explore Goku learning the world, and there's no emphasis on exploring it. That for me is the main feature of the RRA Arc: if GT was the Galaxy Tour, RRA is the World Tour, and Goku really gets to learn and experience the world first-hand, and it's emphasized by Goku doing it almost entirely by himself; we get in his headspace and feel like we're journeying alonside him. The way he meets friends here is different because characters like Suno and Upa aren't revisited, and it shows he can befriend nearly anybody. We spend a lot of time in specific locations like Jingle Village, West City, the Land of Korin and even Penguin Village. In Pilaf each location, with the exception of Fire Mountain and Pilaf's castle, feel like stops on the road and we don't get to relish them that much (which is a result of its small episode count, but there's good reason behind that). RRA also pays huge dividends to later arcs like Daimao, Vegeta and Buu because when Goku is fighting for the fate of the Earth, RRA is there to back up that he truly does care about it and it's people beyond his circle of friends.

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Re: Why aren't the Hunt for Dragonballs and Red Ribbon Army Arc not as well received?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:39 am

KBABZ wrote: I consider the Fortuneteller Baba arc to be part of the Red Ribbon Arc because it completes the storyline (similar to how the Frieza Arc completes the story begun in the Namek Arc). I loathe this arc because even though it's part of the manga, it feels like stalling the final Dragon Ball by shoving a Tournament at the very end to pad it out, which again gets particularly bad in the anime thanks to stretching the story out. However meeting Grandpa Gohan and especially the Blue Travelers ending give this Arc something to look forward to and remember.

I never did understand the fandom or Toei or whoever decides these things seperating the whole thing between the Namek arc/The Ginyu arc/The Freeza arc to me its all just The Freeza arc or the Namek arc for that whole long stretch.

I’ve all seen the Red Ribbon story arc divided as red ribbon army, General Blue, Mercenary Tao, and then Commander Red but to me it’s all just the long Red Ribbon army arc.

I do consider Fortune Teller Baba it’s own thing, however

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Re: Why aren't the Hunt for Dragonballs and Red Ribbon Army Arc not as well received?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:37 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:I never did understand the fandom or Toei or whoever decides these things seperating the whole thing between the Namek arc/The Ginyu arc/The Freeza arc to me its all just The Freeza arc or the Namek arc for that whole long stretch.

[SNIP]

I do consider Fortune Teller Baba it’s own thing, however
Contradiction! Baba is a continuation of the RRA arc because that story isn't over yet. The division of them to me is mainly out of convenience for what specific portion you're talking about, similar to the RRA arc because it's so long (and with the Cell arc it's to denote the switch to Cell in the middle of the Android arc, but it's call one whole arc collectively).

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Re: Why aren't the Hunt for Dragonballs and Red Ribbon Army Arc not as well received?

Post by ABED » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:04 pm

I would say that The Red Ribbon Army and Fortuneteller Baba arcs are individual arcs under the umbrella of larger arc of searching for the DB's. Both have beginning, middles, and ends. The Cyborg/Android arc has no ending. If we were talking about acts, I would say 17 and 18 defeating the Vegeta and Co. was the end of act 1.
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Re: Why aren't the Hunt for Dragonballs and Red Ribbon Army Arc not as well received?

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:18 pm

The Hunt for the Dragon Balls is probably my favorite arc pre-Raditz, sure its not the most dynamic or dramatically satisfying but I feel as though Toriyama's humor really works in it, mostly because almost everyone's kind of an asshole and the whole adventure is a conga line of failure and humiliation for them in various inventive ways.

The RRA arc is just kind of Goku stomping through everyone, some of the antics are fun but besides Tao Pai Pai, I find little of it engaging.
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Re: Why aren't the Hunt for Dragonballs and Red Ribbon Army Arc not as well received?

Post by majinwarman » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:44 pm

It's because the arcs weren't that flashy like the other arcs. I personally enjoy both arcs but they aren't my favorite.
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