Piccolo Daimao death (Anime VS Manga)

[Cure Dragon 255]

Kunzait made a thread comparing the tone and handling of drama between DB and DBZ, specifically in this scene, and most certainly after Torishima's comment that he was dissatisfied by the anime handling of it. But I think that he went the wrong way. Its not DB and DBZ that need comparison. Its the ANIME VS MANGA. Do you feel the anime did this scene justice? Or was Torishima just exaggerating.

Also. As an aside, how did the Dragon Ball anime handle serious scenes like Tao Pai Pai and all the deaths in the Piccolo Daimao saga in your opinion?

[Cure Dragon 255]

Kunzait made a thread comparing the tone and handling of drama between DB and DBZ, specifically in this scene, and most certainly after Torishima's comment that he was dissatisfied by the anime handling of it. But I think that he went the wrong way. Its not DB and DBZ that need comparison. Its the ANIME VS MANGA. Do you feel the anime did this scene justice? Or was Torishima just exaggerating.

Also. As an aside, how did the Dragon Ball anime handle serious scenes like Tao Pai Pai and all the deaths in the Piccolo Daimao saga in your opinion?

Here's the scene in the anime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdylynNTaI4

[ABED]

Why was torishima unsatisfied with Daimao's death in the anime? It's one of my favorite moments in all of DB.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Here's what he said:

“Around this time, we also had all the various anime adaptations of Dr. Slump and Dragon Ball happening. However, from my perspective the Dr. Slump anime was not successful. This was because they couldn't make the anime as loyal to the original manga. It deviated from the original manga a great deal. The reason for this was because it was the first real time the Weekly Jump team had to manage an anime adaptation based on one of their manga series. So nobody knew how to control the anime side of things, or manage the creative process in that way. As I struggled a lot with this kind of thing on Dr. Slump, I made a list of everything that went wrong and didn't work properly. This motivated me to handle things very differently for Dragon Ball.

“Much like the techniques I learned about how manga should be presented and how panes should be used, I then tried to learn the best practice for anime. Not only for the creative aspect but also the business side as well. I also talked to the team for Doraemon at Shogakukan about how they managed the business side and creative side. So I tried to use all of this for Dragon Ball.

“The most important thing I learned is that you have to keep control in terms of decision making. What went wrong with Dr. Slump was that once something was done in the anime, we wanted to change it. However, it was always too late as it had been already animated. So for Dragon Ball we created a huge bible for the series, including all the merchandising before even starting production on the anime. We also were a lot more hands on as well and did our best to control the whole process.

“Even though we tried to make the Dragon Ball anime better than Dr. Slump's, the ratings still went gradually down. We then tried to figure out why that was happening, why the series wasn't doing well. One thing we discovered was that the producer for the Dragon Ball anime was the same as on Dr. Slump. As he had an image of Toriyama's manga as being something cute and funny, which meant his style of Dragon Ball became too similar to Dr. Slump. This meant he was missing the more serious tone we had developed in the Dragon Ball manga. For instance, when I saw the scene in the anime where Goku pierces Piccolo I realized I couldn't work with this producer.

Here's my source : https://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/? ... &referrer=

[ABED]

Okay, but that doesn't really answer the question and it feels like there's something missing because the story had gotten dark by time. The story in the anime and manga are identical in tone. That quote still leaves me unsure what his point about the Piccolo Daimao arc is. Perhaps he just picked a poor example.

[sintzu]

That quote still leaves me unsure what his point about the Piccolo Daimao arc is. Perhaps he just picked a poor example.

I think it's just a bad example as the anime and manga couldn't be any closer when it comes to that particular scene.

[coola]

Maybe e meant that funny twitch before explosion? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6OwPsPXyxY 3:20 But other than that, i think that scene was done very well in both anime and manga (Of course i still think it was dumb that Piccolo didnt just dodge such telegraphed attack, then again, villains like getting overconfident )

[KBABZ]

Also. As an aside, how did the Dragon Ball anime handle serious scenes like Tao Pai Pai and all the deaths in the Piccolo Daimao saga in your opinion?

I think it handled them fantastically.

Bora: The first major death in the series. Bora's death does a fantastic job at getting you to loathe Tao. We have Goku spending time with him and his son Upa and observing their peaceful culture and traditions, then Tao arrives and callously kills him. What especially makes it work is when Tao throws Bora's spear, Goku calls the Nimbus to catch him, and then he's impaled... with Nimbus flying past expecting to catch him. That little touch makes it all the more tragic and gets you pumped for Goku's fight with Tao.

Commander Red: Again handled pretty well. There isn't much to say here but I do want to clarify a pretty widespread misconception. A lot of people seem to be under the impression that Red used the army for his height, but that's not exactly true. In the dialogue (or the dub at least, yes I know, I know) Red makes it pretty clear in his rant to Black that he's plenty capable of taking over the world already and that is his goal. He just wants to be taller first since he's under the impression that it'll help him in his authority (something King Furry doesn't have to worry about).

Krillin: For me this is the big one. The anime of course makes a massive divergence in how it handles this death scene, and IMO it makes it even better. There's just something... weird and surreal going on in the restaurant scenes (although it was telegraphing his death a bit in the sheer focus on Krillin it had). It's worth noting that at the time this episode aired, Piccolo had long since killed Shenron and we're gearing up for the final battle, so from the anime's perspective this was the last time we'd ever see him. The use of shattering glass to show Goku's feelings at that moment are fantastic, as is the music piece used. It's so tragic and I was in tears the first time I saw this scene (which still applies today).

Piccolo: Piccolo's death I think works pretty well too, with the rising music and the slow-motion penetration. What makes this work so well is Piccolo breaking Goku's limbs: it's gut-wrenching to see Goku go through that, with the rocks breaking his bones. So the use of a self-propelling Kamehameha is very inventive. The use of the Oozaru is a bit confusing, but I think it's a nice callback to the form to show that Goku is using his inner strength in this one last attack.

Fun fact: I initially edited out the shot of Goku declaring that he won Krillin and Roshi's revenge in my T1C project, as I felt it was rather out of character for Goku. But after I read through Kunzait's breakdown of Wuxia I understood that it would be normal for him and put it back in.

[ABED]

It's not an original thought but KBABZ's point about Kuririn's death got me thinking. I'm fine with either presentation. Either using the sheer shock of Kuririn's death or the weird uneasiness Goku has during the scene. The whole episode works in the way it cements their bond and while harping on it does telegraph his death a bit, the moment still works because the emotion is there.

[KBABZ]

It's not an original thought but KBABZ's point about Kuririn's death got me thinking. I'm fine with either presentation. Either using the sheer shock of Kuririn's death or the weird uneasiness Goku has during the scene. The whole episode works in the way it cements their bond and while harping on it does telegraph his death a bit, the moment still works because the emotion is there.

Both work to their own degrees, but in general I prefer the anime's take. The manga has that out-of-nowhere and completely untelegraphed death that makes it a total shock, and it does a great job of giving Krillin a reason to go back with the Nyoi-bo and Four Star Ball, which gets him killed and will play an important part for the next arc (and it means that Krillin effectively gets killed out of an act of kindness for Goku).

To add a bit more on the anime's take, the focus on Goku's reaction and the "gut feeling" he has goes a long way I think to justifying his reaction later: when he catches up with Tambourine, he's absolutely ballistic, and it's the first time in the series we've seen him genuinely infuriated. As well, in the anime he finds Krillin alone (with the exception of the Announcer), which I think fits the scene a lot better to have him be in that moment without any of his other friends.

[kemuri07]

Holy shit Krillin's death in the anime might be one of the most devastating moments in the entire franchise. Yeah, Kuririn's death at the hands of Frieza, and Goku's transformation into SSJ, is iconic in its own right, but it's the quietness of that scene in Dragonball, of Krillin walking away and Goku just staring. There's something there, but he just can't put his finger on it.

And then the scene cuts to every other protagonist in the story, just staring at Krillin as he walks away--you know something is wrong. And somehow it's even worse if you know what's going to happen. Even then, I can't imagine what it would have been like, being a little kid at that episode's airing, watching what you assumed was a fun, martial arts show--and then coming across the scene where Goku finds Krillin's corpse, just dead with his eyes wide-open. As someone who has only seen the manga version of that moment, it was haunting to watch.

Also this moment:
Bulma: "Hey aren't you hungry, goku?"
Goku: "I'm not hungry. I'll just wait for Krillin."

[KBABZ]

Also this moment:
Bulma: "Hey aren't you hungry, goku?"
Goku: "I'm not hungry. I'll just wait for Krillin."

When Goku's not hungry, you know that something is truly, deeply wrong.

[Doctor.]

I didn't like Kuririn's death in the anime. Too overblown, not subtle enough. Felt a bit overdramatic in comparison to other deaths in the series, even in comparison to some or the more dramatic ones like Majin Vegeta and Goku vs Cell. Even in comparison to Ten's death in the anime, it just isn't as well done even, though both deaths are telegraphed like crazy and there are a ton of emotional flashbacks. I liked the shot of Goku's distorted view at the dinner table but that's about it. In general, I just hate the "character senses something bad is gonna happen" trope. Goku bolting out of the restaurant and running straight for 10 seconds due to a gut feeling just looks silly.

And since I mentioned Tenshinhan's death, I'll say it's probably the one the anime improved the most. Chaozu's theme from movie 3 being played really gives it that extra weight.

[Asura]

I didn't like Kuririn's death in the anime. Too overblown, not subtle enough. Felt a bit overdramatic in comparison to other deaths in the series, even in comparison to some or the more dramatic ones like Majin Vegeta and Goku vs Cell. Even in comparison to Ten's death in the anime, it just isn't as well done even, though both deaths are telegraphed like crazy and there are a ton of emotional flashbacks. I liked the shot of Goku's distorted view at the dinner table but that's about it. In general, I just hate the "character senses something bad is gonna happen" trope. Goku bolting out of the restaurant and running straight for 10 seconds due to a gut feeling just looks silly.

And since I mentioned Tenshinhan's death, I'll say it's probably the one the anime improved the most. Chaozu's theme from movie 3 being played really gives it that extra weight.

I agree, I felt like Krillin's death was done quite poorly in the anime. It's so ridiculous how not subtle it is, they do way too much to point out that something bad is going to happen.

[ABED]

It's the death of Goku's best friend. Why do you want it to be subtle? I understand preferring the shock of the moment, but one of the things that makes that moment work is the connection between Goku and Kuririn. Even knowing it was going to happen, the moment still lands because it's not a moment predicated purely on a surprise.

I just hate the "character senses something bad is gonna happen" trope

It's actually not unrealistic. I've heard stories from people where they had a gut feeling something bad would happen without any logical reason and then tragically ended up being right. Given that DB is a show that has mysticism from the jump, it seems odd that anyone would find something like this to be any less realistic than even the DB's.

[Gaffer Tape]

Kunzait made a thread comparing the tone and handling of drama between DB and DBZ, specifically in this scene

Could you provide a link to this thread? I'd like to read it but can't find it.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I would if I could. I'm going to look for it. While you are at it, can you give us your take on this whole thing. I've always looked forward about what you have to say on things.

[LuckyCat]

I wish Torishima was more specific about what he didn't like about this scene in the anime. The only thing that stands out to me as strange is when Goku fires his kamehameha on the ground, it makes these weird blue loops (which are never seen otherwise when doing a kamehameha). The moment immediately afterwards when the kamehameha becomes a more recognizable blast is still spectacular though, so it's a minor nitpick.

Maybe e meant that funny twitch before explosion? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6OwPsPXyxY 3:20 But other than that, i think that scene was done very well in both anime and manga (Of course i still think it was dumb that Piccolo didnt just dodge such telegraphed attack, then again, villains like getting overconfident )

The villains in many of Dragonball's stories look pretty goofy right when they die in the manga too, though. Nappa, Freeza, and Cell make silly faces when they get hit by the final attack.

[Kunzait_83]

Kunzait made a thread comparing the tone and handling of drama between DB and DBZ, specifically in this scene

Could you provide a link to this thread? I'd like to read it but can't find it.

I'd like a link to this thread of mine also, because I don't remember writing it.

[Cure Dragon 255]

AWWWW MAN! So many awesome posters here and Gaffer Tape and Kunzait havent shared their stuff!


Anyway, it wasnt so much about Piccolo's death but rather how DBZ just feels like more episodes of Dragon Ball instead of its own thing and how americans and Torishima insist there's some major change when Kunzait couldnt feel any. Kunzait especifically said that the first episode of DBZ just feels like "Episode 154 of Dragon Ball."

EDIT:AHA! I was wrong! It was GAFFER TAPE who made the thread! But Kunzait indeed made that comment on the very second post. Awesome. How convenient that both are here.

Here's the thread if you want to look.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=40007&p=1391267&hil ... a#p1391267