Do you prefer “human” or “mortal” for the non-deities?

[Kamiccolo9]

Don't really have anything to add myself, so I'm just gonna spam a shit-ton of posts from prior threads that dealt with this.

[
Yeah, "mortal" is Viz's way of handling DB's habit of using ningen/"human" as a catch-all term for anyone who isn't a god/demon/robot. They presumably thought it would be weird for Kaioshin and Kibito to refer to Goku/Gohan/Vegeta as "humans", so they somewhat liberally translated ningen as "mortal" in those cases.

(See also: the current thing with Goku Black having an axe to grind with ningen/"humans", once again apparently meaning a broader category of sentient life than simply Earth folk, since he's attacked several planets so far. And before that, the big tournament between select ningen/"humans" from Universe 6 and 7, even though neither team featured any Earthlings and the entire starting point for the tournament was that U6's Earth was devoid of life. This confused people at the time, just as Black's talk of "humans" is confusing people now, but it's all just instances of the unusual though fairly consistent way the series uses the term "human".)

AGE 784
--By this year, Human-type Earthlings make up 75% of the planet’s population, while Animal-types make up 17%, Monster-types 7%, and hybrids with other races (such as aliens) make up 1%. The proportion of Animal and Monster-types is gradually decreasing. The reason is that those two types of Earthlings are themselves comprised of a great diversity of sub-types, and it is difficult for them to produce offspring with those not of their own sub-type (ie, dog-people have trouble mating with anyone besides other dog-people).
[Ref: A pie chart showing the proportion of Earthling types is featured in Daizenshuu 7’s race section and dated to this year. The explanation of decreasing Animal/Monster-types is from there too.]

I don't care if they use the term "Chikyuu". That place ain't Earth! It's ruled by a dog! Don't you realize how incredibly trollish you sound, calling it "Earth"? Deep down you must realize it isn't really Earth. Surely a mistranslation or misunderstanding is at the root of this. It must be cultural differences. Because fantasy works never ever ever ever ever ever use words in a way that is strange by everyday conventions.

OK, (somewhat more) seriously, how are Saiyans not humans? They're human in all aspects besides their tails. Sure they have crazy powers that real humans don't, but then so does Kuririn for that matter. Namekians or guys like Ginyu are a little more out there, but if the likes of Chaozu can be accepted universally as "human" without question, I don't see what they're lacking. And yeah they're from another planet, but DB Earth is completely different from real world Earth: Bulma, Yamcha, and co. aren't from the same planet we are, so they're all pretty much aliens by that count. Why does somebody have to be from a planet that happens to be named "Earth" to count as human?

I suppose my main interest in the issue is how perfectly logical it is for the aliens to call themselves "humans". Once you've established that these alien races who have never been to or often even heard of Earth all speak Japanese (or English or whatever language the show is translated into), infinitely absurd as that may be, it's only natural that they'd all refer to themselves as "humans". After all, Japanese (like English or I'd assume all other human languages) is constructed around the assumption that "human=normal". Why would these aliens refer to themselves in terms that other themselves? How would they even know that only the people on Earth count as "humans"? Why would they even accept that distinction?

But even then, it's not like I jump down peoples' throats every time I see someone talk about Kuririn and co. as "humans" in contrast to the Saiyans or Namekians. It's just something I point out because it's, well, there.

I think the problem here is that some people may be forcing the English definition of the word "human" onto the Japanese word "ningen".

No, not so much. Typically ningen is used pretty much the same way "human" is in English. There are lots of manga, anime, and whatnot where ningen refers exclusively to people from Earth despite the presence of aliens who look and act just like humans. So DB extending the term to aliens is somewhat unusual, though not unprecedented.

Face it, DB has been translated into dozens of languages for dozens of years, no where have I ever, or (outside of this baord and the other) will hear... of the aliens, Namekians, Freeza, etc. as humans.

I'm sorry, but have you done any research to back that up? How do you actually know that all the various translations of DB don't call them "humans"? As dbgtFo pointed out, the Viz translation actually does call them "human" several times (despite altering other instances of the term being used that way), but you weren't even aware of that.

That is saying
1. man
2. person
3. human being

Usually the higher the number, the less common the meaning. That is how most dictionaries work, right?

When it comes to that, they've got "man" first, despite ningen being quite unambiguously gender-neutral. Jim Breen has it "human being; man; person". But really, you'd be perfectly OK with the Saiyans et al being men, but them being humans is completely crazy? How does that work?

SuperForteX, you are a crazy person. That's how you come across, anyway. You think that people here have a "monopoly" on translations, and that every single person here is just an alternate account of mine, with a grand conspiracy to insert subtle hints of personal agenda into said translations to slowly wean the entire fandom toward a single, factually-incorrect consensus.

Our plan:

1. Convince DB fandom that Saiyans are humans
2. ???
3. Profit!

It's stupid to call Capt. Ginyu a human

Toriyama didn't think so.

If it's stupid to call Ginyu a human, it's stupid to call Chaozu one too.

Are we done now?

Something that occurred to me is that while some fans have trouble with the idea of people from space in DB being "humans", the same doesn't seem to apply to non-human animals. So people find the idea of Saiyans being humans strange, but I've never seen anyone protest to the Saiyans' big hairy transformation being labeled as Oozaru or Great Ape. And the thing Ginyu ultimately switches bodies with is described both in the series and by fans as a "frog", not a "frogoid alien". Same thing with the giant fish or crabs on Namek. So calling an ape/frog/crab/fish-like creature from space an ape/frog/crab/fish is OK, but calling a human-like creature from space a "human" seems wrong. Kind of interesting.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I think another aspect of this is that the word "human" isn't used in casual conversation in English the same way it is in the Dragon World.

For example, you would likely use a phrase like "I am a reasonable man" as opposed to "I am a reasonable human" even though the essentially mean the same thing.

I wouldn't say the term is used casually in DB either. Maybe it seems that way because this thread is focusing on all the lines where it's used, but these are vastly outnumbered by lines where characters are just called hito (person), yatsu (guy or dude), and the like. People in the series really don't casually refer to themselves as ningen. Most of the lines I highlighted in my thread on the subject are examples of people contrasting the human to the nonhuman (which in DB's case means animals, gods, demons, androids, or robots), which aren't the kind of statements that typically come up in casual conversation, and where you'd almost have to use "human" when translating them into English for them to make any sense (or maybe "humanoid", "mortal", or "those among mankind" like in Simmons' subtitles, but these are also not terms generally used in casual conversation).

Ginyu's line about being "the kind of human" who can control his battle power might seem like him casually using the word, but the line is not standard way of saying things in Japanese. It's more complicated than it needs to be; Ginyu could have just said "I can control my battle power" and it would have sounded a lot more natural. The fact that Toriyama bothers to use "type of human" here is, I think, because he's trying to emphasis that the ability to control one's battle power is a racial trait rather than a skill that can be learned by all. We see this earlier when Ginyu notes that races who can control their battle power without transforming are rare. It's similar to how Zarbon tells Vegeta that Freeza is also a "transforming-type alien", rather than just saying he can transform (which is what Viz simplifies the line to anyway). Again, I think this unusually complicated phrasing is to emphasis that transforming is an ability only available to certain species.

This thread in general is a goldmine for this topic, with actual discussion amongst people who actually have a clue what they are talking about. viewtopic.php?f=8&t=17342&hilit=human+ginyu
Edit: Also this one viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13915

Queue all the "Herms is wrong and it doesn't work that way" comments in 3...2...1...

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Mortal just seems logical, as they are the antitheses of gods, and a figure of creation, while humans are and should just be the homo sapiens, which it would make less sense for him to hate humans specifically. When it was translated as human I first questioned why specifically humans? They barely do anything in the series, and what about the Saiyans? Thus mortal includes everything not a god and this all products of a lesser creation.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'd say the situation that the Japanese word "ningen" is used in determines what it should be translated into.

For example, when the situation involves gods and non-gods, "mortal" works better to specifically contrast the gods, as mortals are beings created by the gods and governed by them.

Another example is "jinzo-ningen" or however it's done in Japanese. In this instance, "artificial HUMAN" works better because they're based specifically on the Earth-based Human species.

There really is no catch-all translation; everything works with different contexts.

[Attitudefan]

I would opt for using a word similar to "plebeian" for mortals if the gods are also mortal. The class difference here is more along the lines of a social hierarchy seen in the Roman Empire or Egypt. The ruling class, the deities, are like classical emperors in the sense that the emperors saw themselves as related to gods and have a sort of divine right to rule (ie Alexander the Great, Qin Shi Huang, etc) but are vulnerable to death. Hence, they gather immense power and attempt to immortalize themselves in history through insane means, like replicating yourself in stone statues (the image of the emperor becomes immortalized and not forgotten).

In Dragon Ball, the gods are insanely mystical and powerful. They have their status from that power. In a sense, they are godly because they can be feared. They live on another plane, away from the plebeians. Plebeians in Rome were the commoner class, they were not slaves, but they were not of the elite. In Rome, plebeians could climb social ranks and become a noble plebeian. Similarly in Dragon Ball, a commoner like Goku can be apart of the god class through training (and networking lol: starting with Karen, to Kami, to King Kai, to Beerus).

So, in summary, I would rather opt for a word like "commoner" or "plebeian" for the non-deities in Dragon Ball.

[Gaffer Tape]

I'm... actually not that perturbed by that. I mean, it's not anywhere close to a literal translation, but it fits a hell of a lot better than "mortal" ever could. I'm still definitely #teamhuman, but if a dub used that, I wouldn't be up in arms as I would be with mortal.

Also, meant to say this earlier, but I'm so glad, Kamiccolo9, for posting the links to all the Herms stuff. Glad and relieved. I wish more people would read it. But in particular, I love the comparison to how the word "evolution" is used in Pokemon. Granted, I don't know if that's a translation thing, or if that's a completely accurate rendering of what they use in Japanese. However, the fact of the matter is, no one seems to complain about that, despite the process that Pokemon undergo having no similarity to what evolution actually means in the real world. And yet these same people can't accept that Toriyama uses the term "human" in a broader context than is used in the real world. What?!

[Adrian Malacoda]

If I had to choose between the two I'd be in the "human" minority, if only because "mortal" only really works when set up against the gods, and the gods are not immortal. That is, neither translation really "works" but it's easier for me to expand the definition of human to include Saiyans (which, since they can breed with Earthling humans, are much closer to them genetically than any terrestrial life) than to expand the definition of "not mortal" to include beings which are mortal. Also, I excuse it by just saying the Dragon Ball World is not our world and thus there's no reason our real world definition of human needs to be applied there, if the in-universe definition of human includes various types of aliens.

That being said, all but two people in the entire fandom refer to Earthlings as humans out of habit, and apparently have no problem with beings which are "not mortals" but yet are mortal, so in practice I just say "mortal/human" most of the time. Just like GNU/Linux vs Linux or tabs vs spaces, where the "benefit" of being "more correct" is dwarfed by the "cost" of having to justify being a special snowflake each time I use it.

Edit: Apropos of this, according to Evageeks wiki, in Neon Genesis Evangelion both Evangelions and Angels are referred to as human on occasion, although it doesn't really clarify which specific term is used in each circumstance.

[Zillamon51]

In the context it's used in, "ningen" very obviously means "mortal." No need to complicate this children's cartoon show.

If you feel compelled to write a dissertation against that, you're probably just a nerd who likes to argue pedantics. And no one likes you.

[sunsetshimmer]

I prefer "Human" all the way.
"Mortal" sounds too much like Zamasu so...

In Digimon, monsters use word "ningen" for humans as well even though they are not deities either.

[Gaffer Tape]

In the context it's used in, "ningen" very obviously means "mortal." No need to complicate this children's cartoon show.

If you feel compelled to write a dissertation against that, you're probably just a nerd who likes to argue pedantics. And no one likes you.

Maybe you should actually try reading a thread before you reply to it. If you had, maybe you would've realized there are multiple contexts this word is used across the franchise. And maybe you would've noticed the mountains of refutation attributed to one of the most prolific translators in the entire Dragonball community. Oh, but you were too busy trying to sound 'edgy' to actually bother making sure you had the slightest idea what you're talking about. So I ask: do you actually have a point to discuss on this discussion forum, or are you just here to antagonize your fellow fans?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

In the context it's used in, "ningen" very obviously means "mortal." No need to complicate this children's cartoon show.

If you feel compelled to write a dissertation against that, you're probably just a nerd who likes to argue pedantics. And no one likes you.

This is not an appropriate response. Kanzenshuu prefers to foster insightful and engaging discussion of a variety of topics in relation to the franchise, not just whatever you deem worthwhile. If you only intend to toss in your own two cents while ignoring everyone else's contributions as to why this is a discussion worth having, then maybe you should reevaluate whether your post is truly worth adding into the mix.

If this behavior continues, additional account strikes will add up to bans from the entirety of the Kanzenshuu website. I suggest you consult the forum rules, which you agreed to twice before registering, before contributing.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm... actually not that perturbed by that. I mean, it's not anywhere close to a literal translation, but it fits a hell of a lot better than "mortal" ever could. I'm still definitely #teamhuman, but if a dub used that, I wouldn't be up in arms as I would be with mortal.

Also, meant to say this earlier, but I'm so glad, Kamiccolo9, for posting the links to all the Herms stuff. Glad and relieved. I wish more people would read it. But in particular, I love the comparison to how the word "evolution" is used in Pokemon. Granted, I don't know if that's a translation thing, or if that's a completely accurate rendering of what they use in Japanese. However, the fact of the matter is, no one seems to complain about that, despite the process that Pokemon undergo having no similarity to what evolution actually means in the real world. And yet these same people can't accept that Toriyama uses the term "human" in a broader context than is used in the real world. What?!

I think that's my new self-appointed role on the forum: to be the guy that reposts all of Herms' stuff that everybody who was here before the ravenous horde of new people that swarmed the forums starting in 2015ish had already read.

It's a mighty burden, but someone has to do it. God knows that most people just ignore it anyway

[Luso Saiyan]

I really don't see why it's so troublesome to stick to context instead of getting into the whole debate over aliens and saiyans are/aren't humans, which is completely missing the point. Pantalones' has already perfectly explained the issue.

[Gaffer Tape]

I really don't see why it's so troublesome to stick to context instead of getting into the whole debate over aliens and saiyans are/aren't humans, which is completely missing the point. Pantalones' has already perfectly explained the issue.

Actually, I noticed that the things Kamiccolo9 posted of what Herms says refutes a lot of the arguments Pantalones is making, particularly the claim that Dragon Ball uses "ningen" the same way it's used in outside of Dragon Ball. Herms claims "ningen" ISN'T typically used to refer aliens and the like, and yet in Dragon Ball it is. So one could make the case that Toriyama purposely broadened the usage of the term himself, and that this is not a translation-induced problem.

[Luso Saiyan]

Actually, I noticed that the things Kamiccolo9 posted of what Herms says refutes a lot of the arguments Pantalones is making, particularly the claim that Dragon Ball uses "ningen" the same way it's used in outside of Dragon Ball. Herms claims "ningen" ISN'T typically used to refer aliens and the like, and yet in Dragon Ball it is.

Ningen can be used to refer to aliens and other beings, nobody argued otherwise (hence why, for example, it can be translated as 'being' in a more broader sense if that's the intention). Taking context into account is not only important but necessary.

So one could make the case that Toriyama purposely broadened the usage of the term himself, and that this is not a translation-induced problem.

If he broadened and the word didn't lose its meaning it's because it was never limited to begin with. Hence why Toriyama used it in his fictional universe in various contexts. It's only when translated that the discussion begins, because there are various equivalent translations.

[Gaffer Tape]

Ningen can be used to refer to aliens and other beings, nobody argued otherwise (hence why, for example, it can be translated as 'being' in a more broader sense if that's the intention). Taking context into account is not only important but necessary.

So one could make the case that Toriyama purposely broadened the usage of the term himself, and that this is not a translation-induced problem.

If he broadened and the word didn't lose its meaning it's because it was never limited to begin with. Hence why Toriyama used it in his fictional universe in various contexts. It's only when translated that the discussion begins, because there are various equivalent translations.

It's almost as if Kamiccolo9 wasted his time quoting Herms.

No, not so much. Typically ningen is used pretty much the same way "human" is in English. There are lots of manga, anime, and whatnot where ningen refers exclusively to people from Earth despite the presence of aliens who look and act just like humans. So DB extending the term to aliens is somewhat unusual, though not unprecedented.

Compared to:

"Ningen" can translate as the specific "human"... and also the more general "person/people." It doesn't necessarily have the connotations that the English word "human" has -- as in, referring to our species specifically. When someone says "humans" in English it means humans, Homo sapiens, those mostly hairless upright-walking ape things that live on the planet Earth... The "but Dragonball considers all alien races to be humans!" baloney is nothing but a fan-theory made up by people who want to force "human" as the only translation of "ningen."

[Luso Saiyan]

It's almost as if Kamiccolo9 wasted his time quoting Herms.

Come on, seriously...?

Key word: 'typically'. And Pantalones didn't say that it typically isn't used in that way. He said that it doesn't 'necessarily' have the same connotation. Which is true. Again, the point is that context matters and is important.

[ZeroNeonix]

I'm on Team Mortal. I think that word is sufficient. Gods like Zamasu and Beerus have godly ki, they're immune to sickness, and while they age and eventually die, they are fundamentally different from normal mortals. Gods and mortals live entirely different lives. Neither can really relate to the other. Zamasu thinks that humans are fundamentally flawed, and therefor should be destroyed. Trunks, however, knows what it's like to struggle to stay alive and protect those he loves. He can see that the struggle makes him stronger. Zamasu cannot understand that.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm on Team Mortal. I think that word is sufficient. Gods like Zamasu and Beerus have godly ki, they're immune to sickness, and while they age and eventually die, they are fundamentally different from normal mortals. Gods and mortals live entirely different lives. Neither can really relate to the other. Zamasu thinks that humans are fundamentally flawed, and therefor should be destroyed. Trunks, however, knows what it's like to struggle to stay alive and protect those he loves. He can see that the struggle makes him stronger. Zamasu cannot understand that.

Kaio spends his time sleeping, pissing, and driving a car. Man, he sure is unrelatable.

[ZeroNeonix]

Even death doesn't make much of a difference to a Kai. When King Kai dies, he's afraid that the other Kai will make fun of him for having a halo. It was nothing but a minor inconvenience. When Elder Kai gives up his life to revive Goku, they play it up like a big sacrifice, but then he just sits back up and says, "What are you waiting around for!?" Kinda makes you wonder where all the gods went during the Zamasu arc if killing them just results in them having a halo. Could it have been an oversight? A plot hole? Naaaaah.

[Zillamon51]

Try this: Leave "ningen" completely untranslated in a dub / sub. Then ask an average viewer what it means. Literally NO ONE will say "human," because it very obviously includes Saiyans, Namekians, Babarians, etc. Context wins. It is simple and practical.

I can understand arguments against translation changes that significantly alter meaning. "Mortal" does not alter the original intent. "Human" is unnecessarily confusing. If you want to debate that point regarding an academic masterwork, or a diplomatic treatise, then fine. But for a children's cartoon show, it's asinine.