Why was Super Saiyan 3 introduced?

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Omniboy
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Re: Why was Super Saiyan 3 introduced?

Post by Omniboy » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:40 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Omniboy wrote:Now, that I am curious, I'm actually wondering how many more oversights there are in DBZ. I am just now learning about this plot hole and now I'm wondering how many other's I have missed. :think:
My favourite as I learned on the podcast is that the Dragon Balls require a year to turn back to gemstones, but when Goku sets out for them at the start of the Red Ribbon arc, it's only been eight months since the Pilaf incident!
Of course he forgets the duration of time that those things are inactive. :lol:

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Re: Why was Super Saiyan 3 introduced?

Post by ABED » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:55 pm

That's probably what makes the forms introduced in Super not as interesting in a fight, because they don't have any trade-off element outside of being hard to unlock for the first time.
I liked that SSJ God was transient. It wasn't as quick as Kaio-Ken but it only lasted for a couple minutes. On the plus side, it seemed to make Goku's base form stronger, which I thought was cool. It reminds me of the effect the ensatsu kokuryuha has on Hiei from Yu Yu Hakusho. The attack has its drawbacks, but it's not just powerful, it makes the user stronger if the user can master it.
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Re: Why was Super Saiyan 3 introduced?

Post by KBABZ » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:09 pm

Omniboy wrote:
KBABZ wrote:
Omniboy wrote:Now, that I am curious, I'm actually wondering how many more oversights there are in DBZ. I am just now learning about this plot hole and now I'm wondering how many other's I have missed. :think:
My favourite as I learned on the podcast is that the Dragon Balls require a year to turn back to gemstones, but when Goku sets out for them at the start of the Red Ribbon arc, it's only been eight months since the Pilaf incident!
Of course he forgets the duration of time that those things are inactive. :lol:
The only explanation that I can think of is that wishing for a single pair of panties is such a pitifully insignificant wish that the Dragon Balls re-activated earlier than normal.

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Re: Why was Super Saiyan 3 introduced?

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:31 pm

90sDBZ wrote:
ABED wrote:
and then having it so Goku sends Trunks to get it instead of teleporting straight there himself.
IN the 20 years since I read and watched DB, how the hell did this plot hole go over my head? Man, that is some fridge logic.
Ikr. The only way I could think of justifying it is that maybe Goku secretly reeeaaally wanted to have a crack at Buu before leaving again. It would definitely be in character, but then again he does try and stall Buu by talking first so... yeah I got nothing.
Thank God I'm not the only one who thinks that moment is bullshit.

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Re: Why was Super Saiyan 3 introduced?

Post by Bullza » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:48 pm

Maybe in the time it took him to look around and actually find where it was in the Capsule Corporation itself, Buu would have made his way over there and started tearing loose.

It may have taken Buu a minute to get to West City but 5 minutes for Goku to find the Dragon Radar in what is a large building.

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Re: Why was Super Saiyan 3 introduced?

Post by KBABZ » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:36 pm

Bullza wrote:Maybe in the time it took him to look around and actually find where it was in the Capsule Corporation itself, Buu would have made his way over there and started tearing loose.

It may have taken Buu a minute to get to West City but 5 minutes for Goku to find the Dragon Radar in what is a large building.
This actually made me think of a very good point actually: Trunks is faster than Bulma and knows the Capsule Corp building much better than Goku does (considering he only went there once a decade earlier), so that makes Trunks the logical pick to go and get it.

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Re: Why was Super Saiyan 3 introduced?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:21 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Bullza wrote:Maybe in the time it took him to look around and actually find where it was in the Capsule Corporation itself, Buu would have made his way over there and started tearing loose.

It may have taken Buu a minute to get to West City but 5 minutes for Goku to find the Dragon Radar in what is a large building.
This actually made me think of a very good point actually: Trunks is faster than Bulma and knows the Capsule Corp building much better than Goku does (considering he only went there once a decade earlier), so that makes Trunks the logical pick to go and get it.
Then why not just bring Trunks with him?
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Re: Why was Super Saiyan 3 introduced?

Post by KBABZ » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:23 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:Then why not just bring Trunks with him?
Because someone has to stall Buu from reaching West City! Potentially! For some reason!

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Re: Why was Super Saiyan 3 introduced?

Post by Bullza » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:17 am

I actually watched this whole bit in the anime the other day and there they added some filler that makes it work quite well.

Trunks is shown running around the Capsule Corporation and he can't find the Radar anyway. It's at that point Bulma remembers that she actually left it on the plane, the same one she was shown riding on in the manga when they travelling around getting the Dragon Balls to revive those Vegeta killed.

So then they get Videl's phone and call them to let them know, they get the capsule, pop out the plane and get Radar.

Again all filler stuff but had Goku actually been in that situation, Buu would likely have got over there and blown the place to hell anyway.

So the stalling was necessary for a scenario like that one.

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Re: Why was Super Saiyan 3 introduced?

Post by Vijay » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:33 am

Frankly, Goku could've simply Instant Transmissioned himself to Capsule Corp of West City & get the damn radar by himself

Dont give me Bulma's parents have no chi, so Goku cannot lock their chi to IT to their place BS

Dude did just that in Cell Games Saga, when he brought Dende as new Guardian to revive Shenron/DB's. Goku easily IT'd to Capsule Corp & got the radar after askin Bulma

So whats stoppin him from doin same thing?!!

Of course, considerin Fat Boo's speed, Goku wouldnt have had enough time to locate the Radar by himself.

Askin Trunks to do the job, while trash-talk + little "dishoom, dishoom" would improve the probability of retrieving the Radar by slight margin.

To answer the question though. Its simple

Cuz Goku's a badass & SSJ2 simply isnt enuf

Toriyama literally wrote himself to a wall by having Fat Boo simply waay too overpowered (crippling Kaioshin, fatally injuring SSJ2 Gohan & Majin Vegeta)

Toriyama simply had only 2 choices

One. Build-up the Boo Arc till heroes are ready with Fusion, Potential Unlock. Which could ONLY be done if Goku survives against Fat Boo & Trunks manages to return safely to Lookout to master Fusion technique. BAM! Make Goku go SSJ3 & give the fans what they want

Two. Toriyama give-in to "reasonable & logical measures" by havin Goku go SSJ2 against Fat Boo in vain & ROFL Stomped. Whole world gets wiped-out. Till Whis reverses time (gettin Dr. Strange from Infinity War vibe right now), & Boo never hatches in da 1st place

I'd say 1st option was much in harmony with DBZ's established idea & soul

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Re: Why was Super Saiyan 3 introduced?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:39 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
90sDBZ wrote:
ABED wrote:IN the 20 years since I read and watched DB, how the hell did this plot hole go over my head? Man, that is some fridge logic.
Ikr. The only way I could think of justifying it is that maybe Goku secretly reeeaaally wanted to have a crack at Buu before leaving again. It would definitely be in character, but then again he does try and stall Buu by talking first so... yeah I got nothing.
Thank God I'm not the only one who thinks that moment is bullshit.
The Buu arc is full of those moments. Watching it via TFC I was amazed at all the problems I came across with the writing.

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Re: Why was Super Saiyan 3 introduced?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:16 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
90sDBZ wrote: Ikr. The only way I could think of justifying it is that maybe Goku secretly reeeaaally wanted to have a crack at Buu before leaving again. It would definitely be in character, but then again he does try and stall Buu by talking first so... yeah I got nothing.
Thank God I'm not the only one who thinks that moment is bullshit.
The Buu arc is full of those moments. Watching it via TFC I was amazed at all the problems I came across with the writing.
Oh, the Majin Boo arc has TONS of narrative issues. It doesn't stop it from being hilarious and a shit load of fun (unlike the Cell arc), but you really have to turn your brain off when watching that arc.

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Re: Why was Super Saiyan 3 introduced?

Post by KBABZ » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:22 am

Vijay wrote:Frankly, Goku could've simply Instant Transmissioned himself to Capsule Corp of West City & get the damn radar by himself
I disagree, I don't think he would have been able to do it before Buu got to West City. First, he'd have to lock on to Mr. and Mrs. Briefs to warp there, and given how low their battle powers would be, it'd be unlikely he'd get a lock. Second, Capsule Corp is a maze, Goku has only been there once in his life, and that was over a decade prior (and this is ignoring the added filler with the plane, and I doubt Mr. and Mrs. Briefs would be of any help to him). Third, there'd be nobody to stall Buu from blowing up the city before he got the Radar.

Trunks is really the logical choice here because he's lived in that building his entire life, and so would have much better knowledge of the building's layout and would have some ideas as to where the Radar might be (and where in the building that location is to begin with).

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Re: Why was Super Saiyan 3 introduced?

Post by DragonBallKing » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:54 pm

IDK, would have preferred combining SSJ2 with kaioken. SSJ3 isn't very practical and it doesn't have any risk either.
I love the idea of using SSJ with kaioken, it was cool when used against hit and it felt dangerous but later against Jiren it was pretty meh and didn't feel high risk high reward like it should be.
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Re: Why was Super Saiyan 3 introduced?

Post by ABED » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:13 pm

DragonBallKing wrote:IDK, would have preferred combining SSJ2 with kaioken. SSJ3 isn't very practical and it doesn't have any risk either.
I love the idea of using SSJ with kaioken, it was cool when used against hit and it felt dangerous but later against Jiren it was pretty meh and didn't feel high risk high reward like it should be.
With SSJ3, you run the risk of running out of power very quickly. That's the drawback. It's power and speed but without the endurance.
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Re: Why was Super Saiyan 3 introduced?

Post by Forte224 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:30 pm

ABED wrote:
DragonBallKing wrote:IDK, would have preferred combining SSJ2 with kaioken. SSJ3 isn't very practical and it doesn't have any risk either.
I love the idea of using SSJ with kaioken, it was cool when used against hit and it felt dangerous but later against Jiren it was pretty meh and didn't feel high risk high reward like it should be.
With SSJ3, you run the risk of running out of power very quickly. That's the drawback. It's power and speed but without the endurance.
Not to mention the situational risk of it making Goku run out of time for his one day on earth (not that that really led to anything, the boys still learned fusion despite his decreased time limit). Also for making the fusion of Gotenks not last as long, right?

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Re: Why was Super Saiyan 3 introduced?

Post by DragonBallKing » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:43 pm

Forte224 wrote:
ABED wrote:
DragonBallKing wrote:IDK, would have preferred combining SSJ2 with kaioken. SSJ3 isn't very practical and it doesn't have any risk either.
I love the idea of using SSJ with kaioken, it was cool when used against hit and it felt dangerous but later against Jiren it was pretty meh and didn't feel high risk high reward like it should be.
With SSJ3, you run the risk of running out of power very quickly. That's the drawback. It's power and speed but without the endurance.
Not to mention the situational risk of it making Goku run out of time for his one day on earth (not that that really led to anything, the boys still learned fusion despite his decreased time limit). Also for making the fusion of Gotenks not last as long, right?
Still, all i'm saying is I think it would have been more unexpected if after years of otherworld training Goku was finally able to use kaioken in combination. The risk of killing your self for good(since goku was already dead) is a better way to add drama than just wasting all your stamina on an incomplete transformation.
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Re: Why was Super Saiyan 3 introduced?

Post by ABED » Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:08 pm

The risk of killing your self for good(since goku was already dead) is a better way to add drama than just wasting all your stamina on an incomplete transformation.
1) How is SSJ3 and incomplete transformation, and
2) how is it a better way to add drama when both Kaio-ken and SSJ3's drawbacks can lead to the same result?
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