Attacks have become same-y

[Puaru]

A lot of iconic attacks from the original manga days have in later parts of the DB franchise been featured in a way that makes them all out to be pretty much the same thing, namely just a generic enegry-projectile attack. A few examples:

From what we saw in Z, Vegeta's final flash was an attack that took a very long time to load, and where he shot out pretty much all his energy in one epic blast and it was HUGE. In later parts of the franchise it has just become Vegeta's equalent to a kamehameha. It no longer takes any time to charge, and it doesn't look any bigger than a kamehameha.

Krillin's kienzan was a faschinating attack in that it was able to damage opponents hundreds or thousands of times stronger than the user (in the original manga canon we in fact never actually saw it NOT cut through whoever it hit). And it was extremely obvious that it was litterally a KILLER move. If you got hit by it in a vital area, you would get cut through. It wouldn't be like being hit by a regular energy attack where you might not suffer any visible injuries. But in later parts of the franchise, Krillin just spams the kienzan against whoever he is fighting. He even used it in the ToP despite the strict "no killing" rule.

Tien's shin kikoho is another attack that used to be shown to be able to overpower opponents thousands of times stronger than Tien himself (Cell says hi) which alone is something that sets it appart from a typical energy attack (though unlike the kienzan it wasn't necessarely a one-hit K.O). What really made it different from other attakcs was how dangerous it was to the user though: Tien always risked killing himself from exhaustion when using it, and everytime he used it it shortened his lifespan. But now? He just spams it like crazy, no ill effects, and it doesn't seem more powerful than any other energy projectile attack. It's visual representation has also changed. Back in the day it wasn't so much a beam as more of a large blinding light without really discernable outlines. Nowadys it is often presented as more or less a giant beam.

And of course this issue doesn't just effect projectile energy attacks, as the same problem with techiques losing their unique features have also been seen in other types of techniques.

Another example is that lately, Goku's kaioken seems to have become just another power-up/transformation, without any of the risk that was previously associated with the technique.

And as for the last two examples I will bring up, both the mafuba and Vegeta's suicide explosion have now went from being always fatal to being attacks that the user can use and go on about his day.

These examples and more have a very negative effect in a fighting-focused series like DB. Unique attakcs with unique properties, often primarily used by specific characters, are a lot more interesting than just a large number of completely interchangable attacks and techniques.

[Vegeta_Sama]

As for Vegeta's Final Flash, my headcanon is that he Mastered it after all those years, so now he can use it effortlessly, but not in full power like he did against Cell, Magetta, and Jiren, cause he took a while to charge it.

[Kamiccolo9]

The Mafuba stopped being "always fatal" in the arc where it was introduced. Tenshinhan survived after using it on Drum.

[Robo4900]

The Mafuba stopped being "always fatal" in the arc where it was introduced. Tenshinhan survived after using it on Drum.

Sure, but he had the wind majorly kicked out of him, and prior to him trying it, the only people seen to use the wave were Roshi, and Mutaito, both of whom were very old when using it, while Tenshinhan was probably in or near his prime during the Piccolo arc. Plus, Tenshinhan is a somewhat avid user of the Kikoho, so he probably has a crazy resistance to this kind of thing.

Besides, I don't think it was necessarily introduced as being "Always fatal" anyway; just incredibly dangerous, and most likely fatal, which was usually delivered on.

[Kamiccolo9]

The Mafuba stopped being "always fatal" in the arc where it was introduced. Tenshinhan survived after using it on Drum.

Sure, but he had the wind majorly kicked out of him, and prior to him trying it, the only people seen to use the wave were Roshi, and Mutaito, both of whom were very old when using it, while Tenshinhan was probably in or near his prime during the Piccolo arc. Plus, Tenshinhan is a somewhat avid user of the Kikoho, so he probably has a crazy resistance to this kind of thing.

I don't think it was necessarily introduced as being "Always fatal" anyway; just incredibly dangerous, and most likely fatal, which was usually delivered on.

I agree, my post was directed at the OP for claiming that the attack has been ruined by Super because it's no longer "always fatal."

[Robo4900]

I agree, my post was directed at the OP for claiming that the attack has been ruined by Super because it's no longer "always fatal."

Ah, right.

I would argue that it was still somewhat cheapened in Super, since it was treated as being no big deal at all, while previously Tenshinhan was completely knackered after using it, and it killed both Mutaito and Roshi, so the fact it's just shrugged off in Super does cheapen it to an extent, I would argue.
Ultimately, though, I think the thing that cheapened the Mafuba more than anything was the fact they used it as little more than a red herring... At the very least, they could have had the Mafuba work fine, but Black proves a more formiddable opponent than they thought, and is able to break Zamasu out of the jar or something... That would have been a little better than what was done with it...

[sintzu]

The Mafuba stopped being "always fatal" in the arc where it was introduced. Tenshinhan survived after using it on Drum.

Wasn't that an anime only scene ?

[Kamiccolo9]

I agree, my post was directed at the OP for claiming that the attack has been ruined by Super because it's no longer "always fatal."

Ah, right.

I would argue that it was still somewhat cheapened in Super, since it was treated as being no big deal at all, while previously Tenshinhan was completely knackered after using it, and it killed both Mutaito and Roshi, so the fact it's just shrugged off in Super does cheapen it to an extent, I would argue.
Ultimately, though, I think the thing that cheapened the Mafuba more than anything was the fact they used it as little more than a red herring... At the very least, they could have had the Mafuba work fine, but Black proves a more formiddable opponent than they thought, and is able to break Zamasu out of the jar or something... That would have been a little better than what was done with it...

Again, though, it was always a red herring. Aside from the backstory of the technique, it never worked. Kame-Sennin missed, Piccolo blew up Tenshinhan's jar, Piccolo Junior reversed it, and this was all way before Super.

If anything, Super at least gave the Mafuba at least one win in the Tournament of Power. And Kame-Sennin was worn out by the technique. Goku and Trunks might not have been...but they were gajillions of times stronger than Roshi. I don't think anything "cheapened" the move, unless you consider the way the story had always used it to be cheapening it.

[Kamiccolo9]

The Mafuba stopped being "always fatal" in the arc where it was introduced. Tenshinhan survived after using it on Drum.

Wasn't that an anime only scene ?

Not really relevant. We're talking about the effect of the modern stuff on the franchise as a whole, not what is or is not considered in-continuity. Besides, Super has included anime-only stuff before, like Gregory.

[KBABZ]

I think the attacks started feeling a bit generic post-Frieza, where we stopped seeing any appreciable difference in battle speeds and attack power and had to be told when something was breaking the norm. There were exceptions like Final Flash but that's where it started for me.

[Robo4900]

Again, though, it was always a red herring. Aside from the backstory of the technique, it never worked. Kame-Sennin missed, Piccolo blew up Tenshinhan's jar, Piccolo Junior reversed it, and this was all way before Super.

If anything, Super at least gave the Mafuba at least one win in the Tournament of Power. And Kame-Sennin was worn out by the technique. Goku and Trunks might not have been...but they were gajillions of times stronger than Roshi. I don't think anything "cheapened" the move, unless you consider the way the story had always used it to be cheapening it.

In the original story, the attack at least had some big consequences to it, and it ultimately mattered to the overall narrative. Roshi missing it killed him, Piccolo blowing up Tenshinhan's jar meant Tenshinhan was massively weakened, and probably would have died if not for Goku's interference, and it showed that while the technique worked once on Piccolo, he's already developing ways to circumvent it, and basically it all served to build up to the fact that ultimately, to beat Piccolo, someone(Goku) just has to face up to him, and kill him; Piccolo Jr. reversing it meant God was trapped in the vial, which he ate, which adds a ton of stakes to it all, and shows some depth of character from God...
And all this was done with a ton of build-up to the technique, it was massively talked up as being really dangerous, etc... The fact it failed isn't something that would cheapen it, if anything it makes it even cooler because Roshi put everything he had behind the technique, to the point where it killed him to use it, and he still didn't succeed at it.

In Super, it was just "oh jeez goku forgot the seal... man that goku..." so they improvised, but Zamasu still escaped... Ultimately, it was just a little diversion to give Goku, Trunks, and Bulma something to do so Vegeta can fight Black. One of many examples of Super doing something stupid for the sake of getting a "Big moment" that turns out to actually not be that big... (Yes, the Vegeta vs Black fight was pretty cool, but it wasn't anything earth-shattering, it was just... Pretty cool)

[sintzu]

We're talking about the effect of the modern stuff on the franchise as a whole.

Overall I think a lot of attacks have lost their weight in modern DB compared to the original manga.

[Robo4900]

Overall I think a lot of attacks have lost their weight in modern DB compared to the original manga.

I mean, I think one of my biggest complaints with modern DB(Well, I say modern DB... It's pretty much just Super... Heroes is just a kinda dumb arcade game, so... Yeah, it's just Super) is the fact that nothing has any weight anymore.

Characters, attacks, backstories, everything is just "How many characters can we fit on screen at once, and how many nods to prior things can we put into this arc?" with no real consideration for how it flows as a functional story, or ties into the history of the series properly. They'll bring back the Mafuba, but its cool, mystical backstory is disregarded, its fatal/near-fatal consequences are gone, and ultimately it doesn't factor into the story in any meaningful way; it just holds the villain back for an episode so Vegeta can fight the other villain for a bit.
The whole thing just lacks weight, importance, consequence, and understanding of why the stuff they're bringing back worked in the first place, which is quite surprising given how well they seemed to understand that for the Blue Kaioken thing, which got a whole episode devoted to the consequences thereof, which ended up being one of the strongest episodes from that string of between-arc material.

[Forte224]

As for Vegeta's Final Flash, my headcanon is that he Mastered it after all those years, so now he can use it effortlessly, but not in full power like he did against Cell, Magetta, and Jiren, cause he took a while to charge it.

I felt this way about a lot of things after reading the manga when Goku goes SS3 for the first time. He mentions how it took so long because he hadn't mastered it yet. I thought it was a nice way of writing it so, in universe, transformations and attacks became less fantastical as characters used them more and more and became used to them.

[sintzu]

Characters, attacks, backstories, everything is just "How many characters can we fit on screen at once, and how many nods to prior things can we put into this arc?" with no real consideration for how it flows as a functional story, or ties into the history of the series properly.

I blame the way they rushed everything into production as it seems like nothing had time to be planned out. The issues you mentioned are even worse when you're watching Super alongside another anime, including DB&Z. If the same issues continue when it returns then we'll know it's just a lack of care or understanding on the staff's side but hopefully that's not the case.

[Robo4900]

I blame the way they rushed everything into production as it seems like nothing had time to be planned out. The issues you mentioned are even worse when you're watching Super alongside another anime, including DB&Z. If the same issues continue when it returns then we'll know it's just a lack of care or understanding on the staff's side but hopefully that's not the case.

Here's the thing, though; this issue was much less present in the U6 arc than it was in the Black arc, and much less present in the Black arc than it's been in the TOP arc... So as they've had more time to plan it out, its planning has got worse...

The aesthetics have got nicer as it's gone on, and they've nailed the hype machine more as time's gone on, but the issues with the show's writing have only grown more grievous.

Compared to DB, Z, even GT, Kai, or the Super manga, the Super anime is a poorly-executed disappointment. Hell, the Super manga is just okay; sort of GT-level, in terms of it being a fun follow-up to the original story which doesn't live up to what the original was, but it's a fun little continuation.

[sintzu]

Here's the thing, though; this issue was much less present in the U6 arc than it was in the Black arc, and much less present in the Black arc than it's been in the TOP arc... So as they've had more time to plan it out, its planning has got worse...

The Super anime is a poorly-executed disappointment.

I think the reaosn those 2 arcs had more issues than the U6 one was because of how little there was going on in U6 so there wasn't anything they could mess up. The arc can be summed up as Champa being introduced, Goku and Vegeta fighting U6 and the super dragon balls being used. I'd be shocked if they messed up something that simple.

In a lot of way it is unfortunately but on the flip side it has shown its ability to be good so I'm hoping we'll get more of the good once it comes back. I will say I'm very worried about the movie as a Saiyan story is the last thing I wanted them to do and the art looks too simple for my taste.

[Robo4900]

I think the reaosn those 2 arcs had more issues than the U6 one was because of how little there was going on in U6 so there wasn't anything they could mess up. The arc can be summed up as Champa being introduced, Goku and Vegeta fighting U6 and the super dragon balls being used. I'd be shocked if they messed up something that simple.

Exactly. And that's a good thing. Dragon Ball has always been at its best with fairly simple stories that get a ton of mileage from character interaction, wit, creative fights and opponents, and charm.

21st Tenkaichi Budokai: Goku meets Kuririn and trains with Roshi, then the two go and fight in a tournament.
Red Ribbon: Goku is collecting the Dragon Balls, but so is an army.
22nd Tenkaichi: The gang reunite for another tournament, but a rival from Roshi's past shows up.
Piccolo: A demon is resurrected and tries to take over the world and kill everyone. And he nearly does.
23rd Tenkaichi: The demon isn't dead, and faces off against the gang in another tournament.
Saiyan: Goku has an alien brother whose buddies want to kill everyone.
Namek: Space Hitler wants the Space Dragon Balls, but so does Goku's alien brother's buddy, and so do the gang. Then some flamboyant Power Rangers show up.
Evil Dragons: The Dragon Balls turn evil and manifest some big bads for the gang to defeat. One of them is really big and really bad, and nearly kills the universe.
U6 tournament: Two gods with a friendly rivalry arrange a tournament for the gang to participate in.

Very simple stories. All the complexity in the more complex ones(In particular: Piccolo and Namek) are only complex in their characterisations, and the histories the characters share(Saiyan, 22nd Tenkaichi).
Meanwhile, the more complex ones tend to be narratively confused.

The Cell arc is a guy from the future appearing to warn of some big bads, but not the big bads who showed up, because it's the other two three who are the real problem, except really they aren't, it's that green guy who wants to eat the other three two, and then he decides to run a tournament.
The Boo arc is Goku coming back for a tournament, but it's interrupted so a god can stop a demon thing from appearing, but it appears, but it's nice, but it's kind of not, but it actually kind of is, but then it gets nasty because it got angry and sad, and it kills everyone, except not everyone, and then it turns nastier, and the gang have to fight it before it destroys the universe. And then Goku abducts a small child.

Both are quite convoluted, and really, a much more streamlined story would have probably been much more effective in their place. Don't get me wrong, I love those two arcs, but they're a bit of a mess narratively. Unlike the Black arc, though, the story doesn't end up about 300 miles up its own arse...

Black arc is the future guy coming back because future Goku is evil, but actually it's not Goku, it's probably that pretentious god guy, but they killed him so it doesn't matter, except it does because time doesn't work like that, and so the god travels in "Time" so he can get another version of himself to help him kill everyone, so future guy and the gang try to beat evil!Goku and the god, but he becomes the sky and also the universe, so they summon super!god to un-universe the universe, but it's okay because if future guy travels in "Time" but also travels to a slightly earlier "Time" in the timeline it's all fine.

I realise we're drifting quite a bit from the original subject, but I think it's justified, since the attacks becoming samey is a symptom of a core problem in Super's writing; they're just grabbing characters, attacks, etc., throwing them together, rushing out a story that somehow allows them to have a few big moments and all the toys get to play with each-other, but not taking any care to make sure it makes sense. Old favourite attacks will come back, but they're only really there as a little nod, with no real attempt to actually represent the thing they're nodding at.
Character-centric writing isn't a bad thing, especially with a cast this large, but if your writing process goes "ok so we want trunks back and we want vegeta to fight an evil goku, so if we put this little diversion in after they go to the future, it will slow the progression of the story down here so vegeta can fight evil goku for an episode or two. oh and make the whole reason it happened a joke about goku being a careless idiot", then you're doing something wrong.

Dragon Ball's strength has always been the characters, so Super's approach is to shove as many of them in as possible. Unfortunately, since this ends up poorly representing all of them, the characterisation doesn't work. And because the stories are so convoluted and nonsensical, the show is broken on a fundamental level.

So, if they can't get the characters right, and they can't write the stories right, I'd be highly surprised if they could do the special attacks right.

In a lot of way it is unfortunately but on the flip side it has shown its ability to be good so I'm hoping we'll get more of the good once it comes back. I will say I'm very worried about the movie as a Saiyan story is the last thing I wanted them to do and the art looks too simple for my taste.

I would be shocked if it was any better.

As I say, simpler stories often work in DB better. Though, simplicity won't be why the Super movie is bad, if it is bad(And I'm not expecting it to be good, to be honest...). They've already talked about it being a Saiyan story, which just... Ugh, it's gonna be another Episode Of Bardock, isn't it?... Ugh...
I really hope the new movie is a return to form for Dragon Ball, but at this point, Super has turned me so cynical about modern Dragon Ball, I don't think there's any chance of that happening.

[Dbzfan94]

Kamehameha especially.

[sintzu]

They've already talked about it being a Saiyan story, which just... Ugh, it's gonna be another Episode Of Bardock, isn't it?... Ugh...

After BOG introduced Beerus and teased the universes at the end, t seemed like the sky was the limit for what could be done in future movies...Then RF was announced and most were like After all the set up we got in BOG, Freeza was the best they could come up with ? It ended up being fun for what it was but nowhere near the ground breaking BOG. After waiting 3 years for the 20th movie, everyone thought we'd be in for something completely new to not only celebrate the franchise reaching the 20th movie but also make up for the near 4 year wait we had to sit through since RF and...it's just a Saiyan movie . On one hand modern DB has shown that it has some really good ideas but on the other it doesn't want to leave its safe saiyan/Freeza space which is holding everything back.

In this day and age with all the anime to pick from, anime that has serious efforts and thought put into them, DB needs to really step up its game if it wants to remain relevant with its older fans as I think they'll just move on from it if it doesn't. The original DB story is a timeless classic that both young and old love but if DB continues down the road it's currently on then it'll simply be forgotton and dropped by people once they reach a certain age unlike the original where it managed to stand the test of time.