How would the Z half of the series been different without the interference of Toriyama's editor?

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How would the Z half of the series been different without the interference of Toriyama's editor?

Post by DragonBallKing » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:48 pm

I'm forgetting his name atm but I've always heard he was a major reason for the tone shift in the Z half of the story as well as other changes like art style or villain changes, was toriyama's original unedited vision for the second half the story really that different from what we ended up with?
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Re: How would the Z half of the series been different without the interference of Toriyama's editor?

Post by sintzu » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:40 pm

Toriyama's editors have always had a role to play in how the story played out, sometimes major other times minor. The villains and tone didn't really change that much from DB to Z as things overall had a gradual change as the story went on going back as far as the RRA arc. The "look" of Z is a bit different because 2 new producers were brought in to help make the anime closer to the manga in terms of how things look and feel.
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Re: How would the Z half of the series been different without the interference of Toriyama's editor?

Post by ABED » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:03 pm

Maybe it's not your intent, but interference implies something done against Toriyama's wishes. Other people's input is a natural part of the creative process. I have no clue as to the answer of your question, but I think the tonal shifts were Toriyama's ideas. He likes to switch things up.
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Re: How would the Z half of the series been different without the interference of Toriyama's editor?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:53 pm

I don't think it would have been as interesting if his editors weren't so strict on their preferences. I mean the Android arc in my opinion was improved because of that back and forth. No. 19 & 20 being the main villains of an arc might have been interesting but I don't see what they could have done after their initial encounter. 17 &18 also didn't seem threatening enough to be a main antagonist. Its a lot of that dialogue that pushed Toriyama to build off ideas he had instead of just laying them out there as is. Most of his as-is work tends to leave a lot to be desired because he doesn't like to expand to much. The labor paid itself off. When he didn't have editors to impress, the story ended up losing structure and got random, which is what people criticize the Buu arc for and I honestly think they editors movie/specials staff on the old Z staff made a lot of his ideas better than his initial pitches. I think the best of DB came from that collaboration.
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Re: How would the Z half of the series been different without the interference of Toriyama's editor?

Post by One_Instance » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:17 pm

I mean, if you want to see Dragon Ball with the smallest amount of editor contribution, just check out the Boo arc. Takeda was pretty lenient with Toriyama and so you really do get a good glimpse just by looking at that arc. I really don't know as much as I should when it comes to the editors giving Toriyama suggestions* other than Torishima and Kondo having problems with his villians during the jinzonigen/Cell arc.

*This kinda goes with what ABED said. Toriyama didn't really HAVE to do much of anything his editors said, he could've done what he wanted, but for whatever reason he didn't. I mean hell, the reason he ended up making Cell in the first place is because his former editor (that is to say, someone who didn't necessarily have an control on the series) didn't like #16 - #20.

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Re: How would the Z half of the series been different without the interference of Toriyama's editor?

Post by Dragono » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:01 am

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:I don't think it would have been as interesting if his editors weren't so strict on their preferences. I mean the Android arc in my opinion was improved because of that back and forth. No. 19 & 20 being the main villains of an arc might have been interesting but I don't see what they could have done after their initial encounter. 17 &18 also didn't seem threatening enough to be a main antagonist. Its a lot of that dialogue that pushed Toriyama to build off ideas he had instead of just laying them out there as is. Most of his as-is work tends to leave a lot to be desired because he doesn't like to expand to much. The labor paid itself off. When he didn't have editors to impress, the story ended up losing structure and got random, which is what people criticize the Buu arc for and I honestly think they editors movie/specials staff on the old Z staff made a lot of his ideas better than his initial pitches. I think the best of DB came from that collaboration.
That exact same thing happened in the Cell saga! Cell came out of nowhere and even created a plothole. Gohan's fight with Cell was the only fight he was in the entire arc. Things that were build up were shut down just like in the buu saga. Not to mention that is the arc that started the Goku bad dad jokes.


I guarantee you, if super saiyan 2 did not happen in the cell saga, half of the people that defend it would not.

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Re: How would the Z half of the series been different without the interference of Toriyama's editor?

Post by ABED » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:41 am

Cell didn't come out of nowhere. It all feels like it's organically leading to something bigger than the cyborgs.
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Re: How would the Z half of the series been different without the interference of Toriyama's editor?

Post by Whatever » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:04 am

It would be much worse and more random than it is.
Toriyama is a creative mangaka but as far as writing goes (outside of improvising on the spot)he is sloppy most of the time(to put it very very nicely),the Buu saga is a an example of little interference and i think stands as a good example as to why Toriyama needs to be on a leash.

I would even go as far as to say the pre Buu saga editors saved the series.

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Re: How would the Z half of the series been different without the interference of Toriyama's editor?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:20 am

ABED wrote:Cell didn't come out of nowhere. It all feels like it's organically leading to something bigger than the cyborgs.
That's just because Toriyama really was a great writer in his prime. Doesnt mean the decisions for the Cell Saga werent very sudden

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Re: How would the Z half of the series been different without the interference of Toriyama's editor?

Post by sintzu » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:24 am

Whatever wrote:The Buu saga is a an example of little interference and i think stands as a good example as to why Toriyama needs to be on a leash.

I would even go as far as to say the pre Buu saga editors saved the series.
You have to take into account that he was very burned out at the time so it wasn't all because he had more freedom.

I don't think that's fair as every searies has editors working with the mangaka to a degree.
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Re: How would the Z half of the series been different without the interference of Toriyama's editor?

Post by ABED » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:32 am

Dbzfan94 wrote:
ABED wrote:Cell didn't come out of nowhere. It all feels like it's organically leading to something bigger than the cyborgs.
That's just because Toriyama really was a great writer in his prime. Doesnt mean the decisions for the Cell Saga werent very sudden
And your first sentence is what matters. He was talented enough to make it fit regardless of what his original intention was. I truly doubt anyone would know that Cell wasn't the intended big bad unless anyone told them. Regardless of how a writer gets from point A to point B, whether they make it up as they go along or plan it from the beginning, their job is to make it all feel surprising but inevitable.
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Re: How would the Z half of the series been different without the interference of Toriyama's editor?

Post by sintzu » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:45 am

ABED wrote:I truly doubt anyone would know that Cell wasn't the intended big bad unless anyone told them.
I still can't believe he made that all up as he went along. It truly shows what a great writer he was as I've always thought the entire manga from start to finish was planned ahead because of how well it was put together.

I do agree that as long as the story fits together the details of how it came to be are irrelevant as we as readers are looking for a good story, not a good behind the scenes proccess.
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Re: How would the Z half of the series been different without the interference of Toriyama's editor?

Post by Whatever » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:00 pm

sintzu wrote:
Whatever wrote:The Buu saga is a an example of little interference and i think stands as a good example as to why Toriyama needs to be on a leash.

I would even go as far as to say the pre Buu saga editors saved the series.
You have to take into account that he was very burned out at the time so it wasn't all because he had more freedom.

I don't think that's fair as every searies has editors working with the mangaka to a degree.
I mean yeah of course he was burned out,so its pretty understandable that his art and storytelling would take a nosedive but all the bad decisions were his idea.
You can see he was going overboard with a lot of things,like the asspull power ups and forms,incosistent character writing and most big parts from the Buu saga were pointless to the point they felt like filler.

He went overboard because his editor was lax,because Toriyama did not have someone to tell him 'NO' ,just imagine how bad the Freeza and Cell saga would be if they were as random and messy as the Buu arc.
Quite a bit of what the fandom considers bad in Super turns out it was his idea,despite its many faults Super is,at the least is not as messy/random as the Buu arc,granted that must be because Toyotaro/Toei are filling the gaps for him so he only has to give the foundations(the famous draft).
sintzu wrote:
ABED wrote:I truly doubt anyone would know that Cell wasn't the intended big bad unless anyone told them.
I still can't believe he made that all up as he went along. It truly shows what a great writer he was as I've always thought the entire manga from start to finish was planned ahead because of how well it was put together.

I do agree that as long as the story fits together the details of how it came to be are irrelevant as we as readers are looking for a good story, not a good behind the scenes proccess.
Honestly this is one of the best examples of his creativity,the way the story went from 19/20 to 17/18 to Cell felt very natural(outside of that one line in the manga when Trunks mention 19/20 by name to Goku).The only other part that did not feel very natural was Gohan graduating from fodder status to strongest of the group to beating the main vilain out of nowhere.
The Buu arc by comparison felt like Toriyama got bored so he started throwing poop in the wall and see what sticked.

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Re: How would the Z half of the series been different without the interference of Toriyama's editor?

Post by sintzu » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:19 pm

Whatever wrote:Super is at the least not as messy/random as the Buu arc,granted that must be because Toyotaro/Toei are filling the gaps for him so he only has to give the draft.
Super has, despite its flaws, some things the Buu arc and even the original manga didn't have : 1- It has more people coming up with ideas so things aren't limited to one person. 2- Toriyama doesn't have to work 20 hours a day on it so with the extra time it's easier to come up with better ideas as he doesn't have a deadline to answer to. 3- Toriyama had a long break before coming back so his creativity is charged up again, back in the Buu arc he had been working for 13 years straight with little to no time for himself. Thanks to the way Super is handled he gets to take the time he needs to come up with new stories and more than enough time for his personal life.
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Re: How would the Z half of the series been different without the interference of Toriyama's editor?

Post by Super_Divine_Genki » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:30 pm

Whatever, I agree with most of what you're saying, but I don't get this:
Whatever wrote:The only other part that did not feel very natural was Gohan graduating from fodder status to strongest of the group to beating the main vilain out of nowhere.
Is this about the manga or the anime? (I'm not versed with the manga)

The anime foreshadowed that Gohan would, at the least, be a major player as the story progressed closer towards its conclusion as early as Episode #155 -- that's nearly thirty episodes before he would step in for Goku to take on Cell. Gohan acquiring SSJ, mastering the form, and having the highest hidden potential out of the group did not come out of nowhere. As Goku mentioned, Gohan had been keeping up with and fighting alongside them all since he was like, five (and that was without advanced training).

And even with that, he didn't defeat Cell all by himself in the end.

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Re: How would the Z half of the series been different without the interference of Toriyama's editor?

Post by Robo4900 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:52 pm

sintzu wrote:Super has, despite its flaws, some things the Buu arc and even the original manga didn't have : 1- It has more people coming up with ideas so things aren't limited to one person. 2- Toriyama doesn't have to work 20 hours a day on it so with the extra time it's easier to come up with better ideas as he doesn't have a deadline to answer to. 3- Toriyama had a long break before coming back so his creativity is charged up again, back in the Buu arc he had been working for 13 years straight with little to no time for himself. Thanks to the way Super is handled he gets to take the time he needs to come up with new stories and more than enough time for his personal life.
Remember, Toriyama is only coming up with the basic storylines. It's not like the arcs live or die by Toriyama's writings. I think the manga's handling of the Black arc's ending vs the anime's handling proved that to some extent.
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Re: How would the Z half of the series been different without the interference of Toriyama's editor?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:38 pm

Based on the stories I've heard about how things were run back them, I imagine that things would be much different; how different, nobody knows.

Toriyama is a guy who often did things by the seat of his pants, and it shows in his eclectic writing style. It could've ended up brilliantly for twist after twist, or it might've gone horribly and left a stain on his career; we'll never truly know unless someone invents time travel or has a way to view alternate realities.

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Re: How would the Z half of the series been different without the interference of Toriyama's editor?

Post by Whatever » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:09 am

Super_Divine_Genki wrote:Whatever, I agree with most of what you're saying, but I don't get this:
Whatever wrote:The only other part that did not feel very natural was Gohan graduating from fodder status to strongest of the group to beating the main vilain out of nowhere.
Is this about the manga or the anime? (I'm not versed with the manga)

The anime foreshadowed that Gohan would, at the least, be a major player as the story progressed closer towards its conclusion as early as Episode #155 -- that's nearly thirty episodes before he would step in for Goku to take on Cell. Gohan acquiring SSJ, mastering the form, and having the highest hidden potential out of the group did not come out of nowhere. As Goku mentioned, Gohan had been keeping up with and fighting alongside them all since he was like, five (and that was without advanced training).

And even with that, he didn't defeat Cell all by himself in the end.
I am talking about the manga,in the anime we see Goku see a glimpse of Gohan's power,in the manga we do not see much of anything other than Gohan not being able to turn super saiyan and a few panels later that he can.
Gohan still trained for 3 years with Goku and Piccolo and he still was 1 shot material for the weakest androids like 19/20 unlike them,on top of that a version of Gohan that trained for a lot more still was weaker than 17.
So in the manga it really comes out of nowhere when Gohan was the weakest of them pre HTC and then comes out the strongest.

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Re: How would the Z half of the series been different without the interference of Toriyama's editor?

Post by Super_Divine_Genki » Fri May 04, 2018 1:11 pm

^Ah, thanks for the explanation. I'm under the impression that the anime does a fair bit better to fill in the gaps with the progression and build-up with the narrative. Sometimes I'm not sure what page we're all on, because I don't know if a particular viewpoint is coming exclusively from the manga, the anime, or even from the English dub.

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