General dubbing debate thread

[8000 Saiyan]

Troy Baker, eh? Hmm, he's one of those actors where no matter what role he's in, I can always clearly tell it's him. Kind of like Sabat, which is distracting to me. I think I'd prefer an out of nowhere pick that ends up fitting the character like a glove. Like Chris Ayres for Freeza. Maybe that was lightning in a bottle though.

I couldn't tell that he was the guy that voiced The Joker in Batman Arkham Origins.

[Forte224]

Troy Baker, eh? Hmm, he's one of those actors where no matter what role he's in, I can always clearly tell it's him. Kind of like Sabat, which is distracting to me. I think I'd prefer an out of nowhere pick that ends up fitting the character like a glove. Like Chris Ayres for Freeza. Maybe that was lightning in a bottle though.

I couldn't tell that he was the guy that voiced The Joker in Batman Arkham Origins.

He did good in that role yeah, every other one just sounds like Troy Baker. And he's a great actor but hearing his voice on Vegeta would've been strange. I assume, anyway.

[dario03]

According to my newspapers.com research, it would appear that the Harmony Gold dub only aired in a total of two markets: Philadelphia for the combined edit of movies 1 and 3 during Christmas weekend 1989, and in Detroit for the five "test episodes" of the series during the first week of 1990.

It also had some syndication airings. Not sure how much or for how long, but at least until 1993 maybe 94.

[Kataphrut]

I think Moviebob once said that Dragon Ball Z is a show about masculine authority and the relationship men have with their fathers. That's an interesting read and he's a bright guy, but I feel like that's a theme that only really makes sense if your primary experience with the series is through the 90s/00s Funimation dub.

Think about it, if you watch the full series from Pilaf to Buu in Japanese (as God intended), it's a story about a care-free monkey boy going through a journey of personal development. The fact that he retains his child-like feminine voice throughout makes it feel like it's a story about a boy even as he becomes a man and a father. Whereas if you start with Z with the perspective immediately on Gohan, it feels more like a story about Gohan growing up and how he's shaped by the father figures in his life. Goku's masculine voice and infamous "Superman" characterisation combined with the fact that so much of Z is spent waiting for him to fly in and save the day gives it this recurring feeling of "waiting for dad". You have Piccolo going through a redemption arc by learning how to be a surrogate father figure, and later arcs introduced Vegeta and Trunks (Future and Present) as a contrasting look at those paternal dynamics.

Sure, those themes are all present in the Japanese as well, but if feels more like the primary theme in the dub by virtue of the fact that we skip Goku growing up and start with him as an adult with a masculine voice. It might also be why dub fans seem to have more reverence for the idea of Dragon Ball Z being a "passing the torch" story and are frustrated at the way Goku ended up taking it back from Gohan by the end of it. How many other passing the torch stories end with the torch not being passed?

[MasenkoHA]

^That's actually a really good point. If you start immediately with Dragon Ball Z, you would be forgiven for thinking Gohan is suppose to be the main character so it feels likes his potential as a character was squandered by the Buu saga. But if you watch it from the beginning as Dragon Ball, you understand it's always been Goku's story so it makes sense for the focus to end on Goku.

Then again The We Gotta Power opening also makes it seem like Gohan is suppose to be the main character now so there's that.

[Kataphrut]

^That's actually a really good point. If you start immediately with Dragon Ball Z, you would be forgiven for thinking Gohan is suppose to be the main character so it feels likes his potential as a character was squandered by the Buu saga. But if you watch it from the beginning as Dragon Ball, you understand it's always been Goku's story so it makes sense for the focus to end on Goku.

Then again The We Gotta Power opening also makes it seem like Gohan is suppose to be the main character now so there's that.

I mean, the issue of how the later sagas handled Gohan and Toriyama flip-flopping on where he wanted him to go is a whole other can of worms. But I feel like the reading of that story from a Japanese perspective is that it's just another one of those ideas that didn't go anywhere because Gohan ultimately didn't suit the protagonist role. Whereas with the English reading, it feels like a betrayal of everything the show had been building up to. I think that's why you tend to get stronger negative opinions on Goku and Gohan from the English fandom compared to the Japanese. So many people consider Goku a bad dad because of the way he acted particularly in the Cell games and Buu saga because of how it contrasted with that expectation of him to be the benevolent father figure. And in turn, that leads to a lot of people disliking Gohan for not living up to the expectations they had of him.

Those are quite prevalent opinions that mainly seem to pop up among people more familiar with the English dub version. It is starting to change now with the more faithful dubs of Kai, Battle of Gods, Resurrection F and Super, but the original Toonami dub is so well-ingrained to a lot of the casual audience. It will take a long time for that attitude to fully change.

EDIT: I should probably clarify when I say "English fandom" I mean dub fandom. Obviously there are plenty of English-speaking fans who are more familiar with the Japanese version and don't have those different readings of the characters.

[Robo4900]

I think Moviebob once said that Dragon Ball Z is a show about masculine authority and the relationship men have with their fathers. That's an interesting read and he's a bright guy, but I feel like that's a theme that only really makes sense if your primary experience with the series is through the 90s/00s Funimation dub.

I haven't seen him say that, though I do clearly remember being pleased when he at one point described a dumb action movie as being "Like Dragon Ball Z. And I don't mean Japanese Dragon Ball Z, I mean American Dragon Ball Z, after they stripped out all its wit and charm."
And I think he has made similar such references. And when talking about Dragonball Evolution in his blog post about it, he seemed somewhat knowledgeable about the original show.

Think about it, if you watch the full series from Pilaf to Buu in Japanese (as God intended), it's a story about a care-free monkey boy going through a journey of personal development. The fact that he retains his child-like feminine voice throughout makes it feel like it's a story about a boy even as he becomes a man and a father. Whereas if you start with Z with the perspective immediately on Gohan, it feels more like a story about Gohan growing up and how he's shaped by the father figures in his life. Goku's masculine voice and infamous "Superman" characterisation combined with the fact that so much of Z is spent waiting for him to fly in and save the day gives it this recurring feeling of "waiting for dad". You have Piccolo going through a redemption arc by learning how to be a surrogate father figure, and later arcs introduced Vegeta and Trunks (Future and Present) as a contrasting look at those paternal dynamics.

Sure, those themes are all present in the Japanese as well, but if feels more like the primary theme in the dub by virtue of the fact that we skip Goku growing up and start with him as an adult with a masculine voice. It might also be why dub fans seem to have more reverence for the idea of Dragon Ball Z being a "passing the torch" story and are frustrated at the way Goku ended up taking it back from Gohan by the end of it. How many other passing the torch stories end with the torch not being passed?

I understand what you mean.

Though honestly, despite the fact I understand the progression, and I'm fine with Goku taking over in the end, I think it would have made a better story for Gohan to have ultimately taken the win. Though really, the Boo arc is a real mess of a narrative, and while Gohan ultimately taking the win is one change I'd make, it's a story that is deeply flawed in many ways, and as much as I do absolutely adore the Boo arc, simply swapping Goku and Gohan would barely scratch the surface of its mountainous issues.

So, I do understand people taking issue with Gohan getting snubbed in the end(And don't get me wrong, I do consider what was done to Gohan to be a snub), but I don't tend to think about that as the big flaw of the Boo arc, since there's so much else to cricise and talk about with the execution of that arc, particularly structurally.

But... If your starting point is Z(Which is the wrong way to be. No one skips A New Hope when watching the original trilogy), then yes, Gohan getting snubbed completely ruins the perceived entire setup and progression of the show. And that is reason #8192 of why it was a bad thing that DB was initially skipped in the main run of Dragon Ball in the English-speaking world.

[Nia]

Troy Baker, eh? Hmm, he's one of those actors where no matter what role he's in, I can always clearly tell it's him. Kind of like Sabat, which is distracting to me. I think I'd prefer an out of nowhere pick that ends up fitting the character like a glove. Like Chris Ayres for Freeza. Maybe that was lightning in a bottle though.

I couldn't tell that he was the guy that voiced The Joker in Batman Arkham Origins.

He did good in that role yeah, every other one just sounds like Troy Baker. And he's a great actor but hearing his voice on Vegeta would've been strange. I assume, anyway.

I'm just gonna slip a General Scardigne joke in here, and then wallow in my pity that nobody is gonna get that reference.

[Forte224]

I couldn't tell that he was the guy that voiced The Joker in Batman Arkham Origins.

He did good in that role yeah, every other one just sounds like Troy Baker. And he's a great actor but hearing his voice on Vegeta would've been strange. I assume, anyway.

I'm just gonna slip a General Scardigne joke in here, and then wallow in my pity that nobody is gonna get that reference.

I could never bring myself to finish White Knight Chronicles. Cool ideas on paper though. [/offtopic]

[Nia]

He did good in that role yeah, every other one just sounds like Troy Baker. And he's a great actor but hearing his voice on Vegeta would've been strange. I assume, anyway.

I'm just gonna slip a General Scardigne joke in here, and then wallow in my pity that nobody is gonna get that reference.

I could never bring myself to finish White Knight Chronicles. Cool ideas on paper though. [/offtopic]

YOU WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO UNDERSTAND MY OBSCURE REFERENCE!

Somewhat more on-topic: Am I the only one who thinks Roger Craig Smith would be an awesome Goku? Something inbetween his Chris Redfield voice and his Sonic voice.

[Robo4900]

Somewhat more on-topic: Am I the only one who thinks Roger Craig Smith would be an awesome Goku? Something inbetween his Chris Redfield voice and his Sonic voice.

Sounds like a good fit to me.

Probably a much lower voice than most people would be expecting, but I think that could be really cool.